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Archive 2013 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

zhangyue
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p.7 #1 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

sebboh wrote:
why would that be?

Relative error increase with shorter flange distance. This is intuitively thinking: I could be wrong.

I have no doubt leica M will work with A7R, but not sure it will achieve its MTF suggested performance with adapter in between. Once we PP pixel, the final bit of difference on tolerance might become the difference between outstanding glass and good glass.

So far, it seems we have seen many complain about M lens on NEX and M4/3, not many rave about M glass as it should be. They seems suddenly loose their magic. even 90AA, from MTF, it is almost a perfect lens. sensor density could be one explanation, but no way other legacy lens can perform better than those Leica M. From MTFs of most Leica, it is not obvious to me Leica can't keep up the sensor, at least should not be worse than most Canikon, Minolta lens showing here...

but speculation is speculation, just some thought....

Oct 28, 2013 at 06:59 PM

charles.K
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p.7 #2 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Andrew Gough wrote:
Phillip,

Thank you for taking the time to post these images - you might have saved me a lot of money! I am thinking of cancelling my order for the Sony. Given that the Minolta 100mm F/2.4 shows better corner performance than both Leica 90mm APO lenses, I am going to guess that it is a sensor issue as well. The second 90mm APO, is that the R version?

On modern floating element lenses, adapter accuracy is everything. I have struggled with poor adapters, and through shimming, I have achieved very good performance with FLE lenses. As Zhangyue pointed out, you...Show more →

Thank you Phil for taking the time, and to Ron too of course

I have no issues with the 50 Lux Asph, as it is very sharp on the M240 24MP. If anything, Leica have improved the tolerances of the M240, both the RF focusing and lens mount. The amazing thing here is I can buy a second hand 1958 50 Summicron Rigid Dual Range, and this lens is almost as sharp as the latest 50 Cron AA, and the RF calibration is spot on. This is course does not mean there are no QC issues, but there is no point having an amazing 36MP sensor, if the engineering of the mounts to frame sensor is not to the same level. I am amazed with the Sony RX1 and RX1R, the 24MP is about the maximum needed for most, great DR, and the 35/2 Sonnar exceeds the IQ of the Leica 35 Crons!

Obviously there are complex issues here, and I feel that the FF sensor and engineering of the mounts, will further complicate IQ if there are any tolerance issues, more so than the NEX's.

The 35/2.8 and 55/1.8 have so far proved to be amazing IMO, but still a very limited offering. I will still proceed with my A7r with the 55/1.8, but I do have my reservations for M mount lenses. No point having a mediocre IQ, with a M mounted lens, just revert to the 55/1.8 or 35/2.8.

The recent article by Bart from Leica boss, suggests until we have the RAW files from A7/A7r, and turn off all the in camera corrections, the smearing and smoothing, lens corrections the Jpegs that have posted maybe in part affected by these in camera corrections. Link: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7r-raw-file-anlysis-by-bart-from-leica-boss/

Oct 28, 2013 at 07:40 PM

ebrandon
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p.7 #3 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Thanks for all the great info about shimming. I like idea of using tin foil or electrical tape.

So, this last part is probably stating the obvious, but ...

If the lens focuses past infinity you increase the depth of the adapter by adding shims.
If the lens doesn't reach infinity focus you decrease the depth of the adapter by sanding.

Correct?

Oct 28, 2013 at 08:35 PM

Spyro P.
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p.7 #4 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

corposant wrote:
His problem is he only really photographs one thing (two if you count his bike and doll collection) and his opinions are heavily influenced by the production of the content he shares (or forces you to pay for to see). I have always said that I am very suspicious of people with opinions that don't really share a portfolio or representative sample of their work. Based on that, Chambers is more of a technician with an interest in chasing optical perfection than an artistic photographer.

For a lot of people, that's enough to be satisfied, but part of excelling in...Show more →
thank you.
I dont understand how people are listening to a reviewer without knowing if their shooting style/methodology is compatible with his shooting style/methodology? and the only way to know this is looking at a ton of photos from this person. Like, if someone only ever shoots street, how much are they gonna know about tethering or telephotos etc? Even worse, why would you care what a guy thinks about a camera, if he tries to shoot what you shoot but his result are crap? And he doesn't even have the the critical eye to know it's crap?

Oct 28, 2013 at 09:03 PM

freaklikeme
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p.7 #5 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Olaf G wrote:
Let's not forget the excellent CV 28 Skopar f3.5. On my Nex-5n the corners are without noticable smearing. Regarding smearing it is even better than the M-Hex 28 (which is a Elmarit v IV clone) but it shows more vignetting. And it is as sharp as my other 28s (C/Y Distagon 28 f2.8 and M-Hex 28).

I hope you're right, Olaf. That would be a nice alternative to what remain fairly pricey lenses.

Oct 28, 2013 at 09:39 PM

Lee Saxon
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p.7 #6 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Spyro P. wrote:
thank you.
I dont understand how people are listening to a reviewer without knowing if their shooting style/methodology is compatible with his shooting style/methodology?...Even worse, why would you care what a guy thinks about a camera, if he tries to shoot what you shoot but his result are crap? And he doesn't even have the the critical eye to know it's crap?

Because although those things are vital to an overall review they're completely irrelevant to - and can in fact harm by biasing - a technical assessment of optical quality.

Oct 28, 2013 at 09:42 PM

freaklikeme
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p.7 #7 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

ebrandon wrote:
Thanks for all the great info about shimming. I like idea of using tin foil or electrical tape.

So, this last part is probably stating the obvious, but ...

If the lens focuses past infinity you increase the depth of the adapter by adding shims.
If the lens doesn't reach infinity focus you decrease the depth of the adapter by sanding.

Correct?

Check to see if all the screws are tight before you sand anything, but otherwise, that's correct. And remember that some lenses, particularly telephotos, focus past infinity anyway. And if you've got an adapter you use with multiple lenses, I'd say it's best to use your widest lens for testing.

Oct 28, 2013 at 09:46 PM

Spyro P.
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p.7 #8 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

So you'd need someone whose benchmark for quality matches yours, right?
unless you want to examine all their work and place no reliance on their opinion.

Oct 28, 2013 at 09:52 PM

hiepphotog
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p.7 #9 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Spyro P. wrote:
thank you.
I dont understand how people are listening to a reviewer without knowing if their shooting style/methodology is compatible with his shooting style/methodology? and the only way to know this is looking at a ton of photos from this person. Like, if someone only ever shoots street, how much are they gonna know about tethering or telephotos etc? Even worse, why would you care what a guy thinks about a camera, if he tries to shoot what you shoot but his result are crap? And he doesn't even have the the critical eye to know it's crap?

The point of reading review sites is to know the technical aspect of a camera or a lens. I would just skip all the personal opinions of the reviewers. And I would also over-look the artistic value of those test pictures. So in a way, I would prefer a technician doing a review over a photographer. At least, a technician would try to be methodical in his test. An approach like Huff would be fun to read at first, but it does not reveal much about the lens, especially with his over-the-top processing. Let's face it. We all have different approaches to photography (from crafting a picture to process it). It's quite impossible to find a reviewer that has the same approach as each individual here.

Oct 28, 2013 at 09:54 PM

hiepphotog
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p.7 #10 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

freaklikeme wrote:
Check to see if all the screws are tight before you sand anything, but otherwise, that's correct. And remember that some lenses, particularly telephotos, focus past infinity anyway. And if you've got an adapter you use with multiple lenses, I'd say it's best to use your widest lens for testing.

What Brad said.. However, I would return the adapter and get a different one. It's not easy to keep an even surface while you sand it down without proper tools. I would say all of the "expensive" adapters I have tried would either focus past infinity or spot on. If the adapter is too thick, it just shows a real sloppy workmanship right there.

Oct 28, 2013 at 10:03 PM

soarfm
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p.7 #11 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

I once subscribed to Lloyd Chamber's reviews and I learned to take them for what they are. I used to joke that I pay him to do my pixel peeping. It became quickly apparent that his viewpoint was one of chasing optical excellence akin to an audiophile more interested in the technical performance of his audio equipment than in the actual music that it is intended to play. This can be useful to a photographer that is less inclined to get bogged down in testing because they would rather take and create photographs. I hate testing. But his subscription was too pricey for his narrow viewpoint. Additionally, he seems to rarely make a print or comment on how the differences at 100% on a retina display fail to be as markedly different in print. He's also a bit arrogant that the camera makers seem to pay no heed to his unsolicited design specifications. I guess the last straw for me was his occasional insertion of political commentary.

I did find it a bit funny one day when I was reading about his disdain for Porsche's redesign on the Cayenne SUV, you see, I guess his 2008 model (or whatever year model he has) had the superior older design and that was an ABSOLUTE MUST for his demanding driving through the mountains to take pictures of bristlecone pines and absolutely nothing else would suffice for the Lloyd....

Spyro P. wrote:
thank you.
I dont understand how people are listening to a reviewer without knowing if their shooting style/methodology is compatible with his shooting style/methodology? and the only way to know this is looking at a ton of photos from this person. Like, if someone only ever shoots street, how much are they gonna know about tethering or telephotos etc? Even worse, why would you care what a guy thinks about a camera, if he tries to shoot what you shoot but his result are crap? And he doesn't even have the the critical eye to know it's crap?

Oct 28, 2013 at 10:06 PM

Spyro P.
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p.7 #12 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

hiepphotog wrote:
It's quite impossible to find a reviewer that has the same approach as each individual here.
Maybe you can, and the guide to identifying that reviewer is his photos which was the point I was trying to make. I found mine, it's Sean Reid who shoots roughly what I shoot and I know if sth will bug me about a camera it will bug him first and he will write about it. I think that the whole approach of finding a technician who will be free of prejudice and will only tell us if sth meets an optical benchmark or not, is based on the assumption that such a benchmark exists and is constant throughout the ages. I was never convinced that it exists. I think most of us consciously or subconsiously benchmark against the best of the class at that given point in time and confuse this as a constant universally accepted benchmark. Which is interesting and can even be fun but it's not constant, it's a moving target.

Oct 28, 2013 at 10:17 PM

sebboh
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p.7 #13 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Spyro P. wrote:
unless you want to examine all their work and place no reliance on their opinion.

this is the only one that works for me, i've never founding any reviewer who's ergonomic preferences and shooting style resemble mine all that much.

Oct 28, 2013 at 10:54 PM

ebrandon
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p.7 #14 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

FM member TSDevine just posted this good link to test shots on another of the A7/A7R threads

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/10/28/sony-a7-and-a7r-sample-photos-groundbreaking-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras

These samples really let you compare A7 vs A7R side by side for the first time. Same lens, same scene. I was really hoping the A7R would wipe the floor with the A7, so I could stop pondering which camera makes more sense, but unfortunately (for me) they both look really nice. A7R looks a little better I think, although perhaps with worse(!) corners?

UPDATE: And now Steve Huff has posted from Nashville as well http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/10/28/honky-tonkin-with-the-sony-a7-and-a7r-in-nashville/

Edited on Oct 28, 2013 at 11:46 PM · View previous versions

Oct 28, 2013 at 11:23 PM

Mescalamba
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p.7 #15 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Well, if M-adapters are issue, I guess its time to make M-mount replacement mount for A7r.

Or start Leitax for M to E.

I guess that with these sensors, aligment will really start to matter. Good that "Pure Nikon" will have 16 mpix probably (and maybe even with AA

Oct 28, 2013 at 11:45 PM

hiepphotog
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p.7 #16 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Spyro P. wrote:
Maybe you can, and the guide to identifying that reviewer is his photos which was the point I was trying to make. I found mine, it's Sean Reid who shoots roughly what I shoot and I know if sth will bug me about a camera it will bug him first and he will write about it. I think that the whole approach of finding a technician who will be free of prejudice and will only tell us if sth meets an optical benchmark or not, is based on the assumption that such a benchmark exists and is constant throughout...Show more →

Well, that's the thing. I don't take their words at face value. I actually look at their test shots (let's put it that way since they don't have much artistic value) to gauge the optical quality of a lens. If I know my lenses well enough, I would be able to make my own comparison. It's an added bonus when a reviewer would do a comparison himself.

I would take Huff's comparison as a grain of salt since he approaches it under the pretense of a photographer. Sean Reid is quite methodical with his comparison, though his testing distance is quite limited. Lloyd Chambers has constantly improved his scope of testings: real world pictures of a lens' FC behavior, aperture series at various distances, lighting, etc. I do find some of his tests quite sloppy (most of the bicycle shots) . I don't know why he has abandoned the church's mosaic test since I personally find it quite illuminating.

As for his personal comments, I don't pay much attention. For example, I don't see much "medium-format" or 3D characteristic in his Otus shots even though he keeps raving about it. Now I think about it, I have never bought a camera based on a reviewer's opinion since camera evaluation can be very subjective. I bought all of my cams because of certain "must-have" features and tried to see if I can live with all the short-comings. I guess in this aspect, one might need to find a well-aligned reviewer.

Oct 28, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Kruschtel
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p.7 #17 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

ebrandon wrote:
FM member TSDevine just posted this good link to test shots on another of the A7/A7R threads

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/10/28/sony-a7-and-a7r-sample-photos-groundbreaking-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras

These samples really let you compare A7 vs A7R side by side for the first time. Same lens, same scene. I was really hoping the A7R would wipe the floor with the A7, so I could stop pondering which camera makes more sense, but unfortunately (for me) they both look really nice. A7R looks a little better I think, although perhaps with worse(!) corners?

UPDATE: And now Steve Huff has posted from Nashville as well http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/10/28/honky-tonkin-with-the-sony-a7-and-a7r-in-nashville/

The street shots from IR of the A7 look kind of oversharpened when directly compared to the A7R. A7R looks more natural to me, but in the other shots close up its hardly noticable.

The shots are helpful, but some with better weather would be great, too

Oct 29, 2013 at 01:32 AM

artur5
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p.7 #18 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

zhangyue wrote:
.................

I want add the shorter flange distance the lens was designed for, the more sensitive to this adapter thickness tolerance. This put Leica M in worst position compare to Canikon, Zeiss legacy lens. This also make sense why we saw so many contradicted results over internet about all the zm, Leica M, Voigtlander, and Contax G lens so far...

Sorry, but the tolerance to adapter thickness ins't related to the flange distance but to the focal lenght of the lens. An adapter skewed 0.01mm. will have the same negative effect on a Nikon 28mm. lens than on a Leica M 28mm. lens.

Oct 29, 2013 at 05:12 AM

Spyro P.
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p.7 #19 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

hiepphotog wrote:
Sean Reid is quite methodical with his comparison, though his testing distance is quite limited.
Exactly, that's my point: if you look at Sean's photos they are mostly street/documentary/wedding type of shots with the occasional portrait thrown in there. People shots, mid to close distances. Why would I expect such a photographer to make lens infinity performance a priority in his testing? It's irrelevant to his shooting. On the other hand if I want to know which lens/camera is suitable for flexible zone focusing, which I do want, I know he's my man. No "technician" is gonna tell me that, he probably wouldnt even know what the whole fuss is about.

Anyway I seem to have almost derailed the thread. Apologies

Oct 29, 2013 at 05:29 AM

turnstyle
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p.7 #20 · Sony A7r some full resolution test shots

Hi all, I don't totally understand the shimming/filing thing.

Do you not have the same problem when mounting lenses to bodies that support them without adapter? I get that the adapter adds complexity -- but if lenses and bodies can be built to spec, such that it "just works" -- is there some reason to expect the adapter can't?

fwiw, I have the Voightlander adapter, and I'm trying to figure out if my side mushiness (Lux 50 on NEX7) is due to the adapter -- or if it's just what I should expect from the lens.

Thanks!

Oct 29, 2013 at 10:33 AM

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