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Archive 2013 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless

  
 
partitura
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p.72 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Actually, isn't the pixel density of the A7R roughly the same as the NEX 5N? If so, shouldn't it be easier to hand hold than the NEX 7?


Nov 16, 2013 at 11:15 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.72 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


waterden wrote:
I think the ability to handhold is very important. There is an increasing number of people, like pekkapotka, suggesting it may be harder on the A7R than on the A7 because of the increased pixel density on the former. Now I have no trouble handholding the NEX-7 and the pixel density on that sensor is similar to that on the A7R. Am I missing something here?


No, it will not be harder on the A7r than NEX-7 to get maximum resolution (using the term properly, not to mean "pixel count" or "pixel density" as internet forums often do) while handholding. However, it should be a bit easier on the A7. And either way, the extent of this effect is very minor, despite some IAE.

More importantly, this is on a per-pixel level; when the images are downsampled / printed the same size the same extra pixels that create this "problem" will cancel it out (and then some). So the reality of the situation is not "shooting handheld, the A7 will be higher resolution than the A7r" but "shooting handheld, the A7r won't be as much higher resolution than the A7 as usual." And even that's only in marginal shutter speed territory.

Edited on Nov 16, 2013 at 11:29 AM · View previous versions



Nov 16, 2013 at 11:22 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.72 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Comment to Bob, moved from image thread where it didn't belong...

Bob I find myself nodding to the essence of what you say but I think there may be other factors at work than just a desire to sell more lenses for new mounts/short back focal distance/high resolution/large sensor cameras" theme. Bear in mind Sony has no lenses to sell today but 1 kit zoom and the FE35. FE55 coming next. And then in 2014, others. They can't afford an A7/r still birth so catering to alt-glass and system migration/second back buyers is critical to them.

1) Sony benefits from the alt-glass buzz so even if there is a desire to spur on lens sales, given there isn't a fully fleshed out FE lens line-up *today*, if anything, they Sony would be encouraged to make the A7 and A7rs the absolute best camera for *all* alt-glass, if it were possible to satisfy all needs. If it were possible.

Let's assume it were possible to satisfy all variations of lenses - FE, M, SLR/DSLR mounts, equally well: Sony could make the A7 or A7r the best body for M mount glass, period, and simply not replicate the feat in future models if their desire were to sell more AF lenses. Drag M glass shooters over to an instant classic. Future models, not so much.

But I don't assume it's possible to satisfy all wants simultaneously if one of the objectives is small, light, very high performance native FE class E mount lenses for a line of cameras intended to go on for a long, long time, assuming sensor pixel densities increase even just a little over the next decade.

2) That said, they stand to gain more from drawing people from Canon than Leica, probably, and adapted Canon SLR/DSLR lenses aren't subject to the same sorts of issues. They kinda get those folks for free. Being as the competitive threat to Sony is never Leica but Canon, Nikon, and other mirrorless makers, simply not standing in the way of those users is a good, low cost, approach for Sony.

3) Meanwhile they still need a small, lightweight high performance lens line up to go with their short back focal distance cameras. Even Leica has issues supporting a 27.5mm mount; 18mm just complicates what is already now and going to be with higher pixel densities an increasingly more difficult problem to lick. Maybe Leica gets frozen in time with its current sensor for quite some time; that company can slowly bring out redesigns of well loved lenses, but they have a finer line than Sony to walk lest they alienate their bsae of users many of which pay multi-kilo-bucks for lenses which might not be as portable to future Leica digital M's let alone Sony products.

4) Who is the only full frame, narrow flange focal distance, compact mirrorless camera maker out there without a legacy base of users to account for? Sony.

Here's where I agree with you the most: they have a relatively new mount; a new class of camera; and the opportunity to bring out high quality compact lens designs tuned for this reality.

The physics are dictated by user wants. Who hasn't wanted a digital "SLR" that was the size of our relatively compact film SLRs of days gone by? That's what Sony has brought us. Was it always the plan with the NEX ant 18mm E mount? did they sketch out futuristic (then) A7 type cameras and know they could eventually get there? Dunno.

What we do know is if the mount were substantially deeper, we'd have chunky Nikon Df style cameras coming out of Sony instead of the svelte little A7s.



Nov 16, 2013 at 11:24 AM
partitura
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p.72 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


partitura wrote:
Actually, isn't the pixel density of the A7R roughly the same as the NEX 5N? If so, shouldn't it be easier to hand hold than the NEX 7?


I just looked it up on DXOMark. Pixel pitch on a a Nex-7 is 3.9 micrometers, and on the A7R is 4.9 micrometers.



Nov 16, 2013 at 11:34 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.72 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


cputeq wrote:
^ Do realize waterden, the A7r also lacks electronic first curtain - this is an important distinction between it and the A7, and can be the cause for some image shake (and is the primary reason I didn't go for the A7r).


The A7r might not have an EFC shutter but it also doesn't have a big honkin' mirror (D800E) slapping up and down either. Some how people manage to handhold the D800.

Yes, the D800E has more mass, a good for shooting stability and bad thing for carrying it. But consider also that people manage to shoot the high pixel density NEX-7, handheld, with much success. It has *less* mass than the A7r.

Maybe there is a demonstrable benefit to going with an A7 to improve odds overall and that could be reward enough for some.

But I'm with Vern and believe concerns over whether the A7r camera can be successfully used hand-held are blown out of proportion by the Internet Amplifier (tm). It seems to me exactly the same discussions surrounded the D800/E before photographers broadly got them in their hands; have those concerns materialized in the same proportions as fears?

Nope.



Nov 16, 2013 at 11:43 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.72 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I just got my girlfriend an NEX-6. First issue I've come across: the Fn button is completely useless. Very few options and not one of them is worth placing next to the shutter (do most people really switch constantly between continuous and single frame advance?!)

Additionally the #1 feature I wanted on the Fn button, MF Assist, is stuck at the bottom of the camera and almost impossible to reach if you're holding the camera in an even-remotely-stable manner.

Anybody know if either of these problems have been fixed with the A7/r?



Nov 16, 2013 at 11:59 AM
nandadevieast
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p.72 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


In this link (pekkapotka) he talks about how it is easier to handhold OMD at a lower ISO and shutter speed for a greater DOF...couldnt get it...
Care to explain? How is it possible?

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Was considering getting A7R+1.8/55 instead of 3rd 5DmkII & Otus until read this (I want to have ~28mm, ~50mm and 135mm in my bag without switching lenses and was wishing that could save few cubic cm & grams via A7R-"route"):
http://www.pekkapotka.com/journal/2013/11/11/tempted-by-the-sony-a7r.html
If pro can't handhold 55mm lens (minor concern for me; I shoot >95% from tripod, thou this makes it useless for travel) and if bokeh greed/magenta is that bad (major concern) I'll start going to gym to carry the Otus in summer 2014

Samuli




Nov 16, 2013 at 12:08 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.72 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


cputeq wrote:
The shakes I take with a grain of salt - everyone holds a camera differently, and for someone handling for only one day, it could have been he was rushed in taking the photos.

Plus, I have to wonder if he was viewing images at 100% to indicate shaking - that's probably a bit unrealistic from hand-holding ANY 36MP camera.

If you're a deep DOF shooter (he kept saying he wanted the same DOF), then sure the A7 (or really any FF) might not be a best fit, but I'd take it as just a grain of salt.

Yes, I would take that "with a gain of salt"; I won't expect much about people who trade FF to minisensor-SLR (or whatever the fourthirds crap is called).



cputeq wrote:
Also, and this may seem strange, but -- Images that aren't perfectly sharp, believe it or not, can still be keepers.

I can't count how many times I've used and posted older A850 shots that weren't exactly sharp (at 100%) because of movement (remember when 24MP was obscene?), yet when viewing online at web sizes or even printed,
it was impossible to detect the motion.

The beauty of downscaling.

That's what a lot of people seem to forget when we talking about these high-MP sensors in the digital age:

At normal (typical) output sizes, it's not going to matter if you have slight image.

It's when you start getting into obscene print sizes that it really starts to matter, and if you're doing obscene print sizes, you're taking every precaution anyway (tripod, timers, remote releases, shutter speeds), so the shake "problem" isn't a problem at all.
...Show more
I would disagree - sure some 0.5 pixel won't show up, but if 100% looks blurred then typically also the websize or at least HD (1080P) size images lack "something". I'm sure those who's post processing is enhancing edges (>95% of people) and resizing process makes textures/small detail disappear have their tolerance way higher. This is similar to that some people can't differentiate small area inside DOF (depends on lens design), which is actually in focus and has better contrast - people even post misfocused photos, which look wrongly focused despite their crappy post processing methods trying to hide it.

When I started shooting with my first DSLR it had 3.1Mpix (Canon D30) and now I shoot with >21Mpix (5DmkII and A850). Based on my experience of megapixel development past 10 years I don't see that much change based on megapixels. To me it's still question how many "degrees" camera tilt is causing the blur; naturally websize image allows more "degrees", but if photo is blurred 100% it most likely shows somehow.

With deconvolution sharpening tools I have been able to improve some shaken shots, so that they look OK on websize and even HD (1080p), but if I look them fullscreen (2560x1600) they are not good enough that I would ever dare to present them to anybody.



However I was interested A7R only because of 1.8/55 (as smaller/lighter Otus 55 replacement because it was supposed to be super good based on "internet talk" and calculated MTF charts ), so A7R is no longer my concern. In addition to Otus 55, I would like in wide end is either 2/28 (current ZE/ZF is almost good enough) or 1.4/28 - If Sony strategy is small/slow (I consider 2.8 slow) lenses there won't be wide angle lens for me in future either => A7R-platform most likely just won't offer me anything at this point, let's see in 2014 what lenses Zeiss will produce to the platform.

Samuli


Nov 16, 2013 at 12:08 PM
ct8282
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p.72 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


michaelwatkins wrote:
The A7r might not have an EFC shutter but it also doesn't have a big honkin' mirror (D800E) slapping up and down either. Some how people manage to handhold the D800.

Yes, the D800E has more mass, a good for shooting stability and bad thing for carrying it. But consider also that people manage to shoot the high pixel density NEX-7, handheld......
.


Exactly. I shoot my D800 exclusively handheld, and never seemed to have problems getting sharp shots in focus. Many shots were of my baby daughter who is always on the move.

Whoever came up with the concept of not being able to successfully handhold these high res cameras is, well, quite frankly talking complete horse sh*t.



Nov 16, 2013 at 12:09 PM
Jabberwockt
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p.72 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


With regards to hand holding shots:
I think it is just a matter of getting enough mass to dampen the natural tendency of our hands to move a little. To that regard, simply adding a battery grip should help.



Nov 16, 2013 at 12:28 PM
sebboh
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p.72 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Was considering getting A7R+1.8/55 instead of 3rd 5DmkII & Otus until read this (I want to have ~28mm, ~50mm and 135mm in my bag without switching lenses and was wishing that could save few cubic cm & grams via A7R-"route"):
http://www.pekkapotka.com/journal/2013/11/11/tempted-by-the-sony-a7r.html
If pro can't handhold 55mm lens (minor concern for me; I shoot >95% from tripod, thou this makes it useless for travel) and if bokeh greed/magenta is that bad (major concern) I'll start going to gym to carry the Otus in summer 2014

Samuli


that looks about the same as any other fast zeiss (except the otus and 135 APO). if you boost the contrast on the ZE 50/1.4 to match the FE's contrast the color fringing would be just as bad but less sharp. it is annoying, but not surprising. mostly you'll only notice it at 100% and not in print. the magenta part at least can be easily reduced in LR (one click), but will turn the branches grey. you shoot a lot of forests so i guess i can see it being a deal breaker.

Lee Saxon wrote:
I just got my girlfriend an NEX-6. First issue I've come across: the Fn button is completely useless. Very few options and not one of them is worth placing next to the shutter (do most people really switch constantly between continuous and single frame advance?!)

Additionally the #1 feature I wanted on the Fn button, MF Assist, is stuck at the bottom of the camera and almost impossible to reach if you're holding the camera in an even-remotely-stable manner.

Anybody know if either of these problems have been fixed with the A7/r?


yes, Fn is much more customizable and there are a lot more options for the numerous customizable buttons. it was much better on the nex-7 too. can you really not assign MF assist to the AE button on the NEX-6?




Nov 16, 2013 at 12:29 PM
sebboh
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p.72 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


ct8282 wrote:
Exactly. I shoot my D800 exclusively handheld, and never seemed to have problems getting sharp shots in focus. Many shots were of my baby daughter who is always on the move.

Whoever came up with the concept of not being able to successfully handhold these high res cameras is, well, quite frankly talking complete horse sh*t.


agreed, i think it's because some people are stuck on the 1/focal length rule for handholding.



Nov 16, 2013 at 12:31 PM
naturephoto1
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p.72 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Apparently we are now beginning to hear of deliveries of cameras in Europe. One of the members over at L-camera-forum reported receiving his A7r this morning. He is in London, UK.

Below is from one of the comments from Mr. Jones over at L-camera-forum:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2557634-post2231.html

"I'm looking at a lot of raw files here and it's all first impressions but there are a few things standing out. Even at 5.6 the 50/2 vignettes and the problem goes on getting worse with the wider lenses. 28/2.8 has pink edges even at f8. Almost nothing looks M9 sharp at 1:1 view on lightroom. Could be camera shake, I'm shooting say minimum 1/100 for 50mm.

The results look more like medium format scans than M9. Not a bad thing, but different

The higher ISO is incredible, on a dark London afternoon this can make all the difference. However this is not a camera to sell the M over. It might work for me as a second low light body but from what I've seen so far it can't replace even the M9 at base ISO.

If someone can hook me up with a good place to drop raw files I will upload them later. I should be able to do some M9/A7r side by sides tomorrow.

I have to say that the files don't pixel peep that well but they do look fantastic overall, just not quite seeing what I recognise as the character of the lenses yet."

He commented about "the files don't pixel peep that well but they do look fantastic overall, just not quite seeing what I recognise as the character of the lenses yet." I am wondering if he is having camera movement if this is what he is observing.

Rich



Nov 16, 2013 at 01:00 PM
shelt
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p.72 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


naturephoto1 wrote:
Apparently we are now beginning to hear of deliveries of cameras in Europe. One of the members over at L-camera-forum reported receiving his A7r this morning. He is in London, UK.

Below is from one of the comments from Mr. Jones over at L-camera-forum:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2557634-post2231.html

"I'm looking at a lot of raw files here and it's all first impressions but there are a few things standing out. Even at 5.6 the 50/2 vignettes and the problem goes on getting worse with the wider lenses. 28/2.8 has pink edges even at f8. Almost nothing looks M9 sharp at 1:1 view on lightroom. Could be
...Show more

I also found (on the NEX series) it took a while to get the hang of focus peaking/magnification focusing. My keeper rate went up sharply after a few days of practice. Quite a change from the M9 I'd expect. That said, it does appear we'll be living with soft corners on most of the Leica wides...



Nov 16, 2013 at 01:29 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.72 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Folks really need to be shooting at 1/250 sec or so handheld for a 35-50mm lens and FF 36MP's in my experience if they want very sharp images at 100% view. Also, as previously mentioned by sebboh I believe, even if the pixel density is the same as APS 16MP roughly, the longer focal length required for FF to get a similar AOV as when using APS and shorter focal lengths must be considered. So, it's not just pixel density but pixel density and the focal lengths used for that pixel density (longer focal lengths of course requiring higher shutter speeds). The lighter weight and smaller size of the A7r could also come into play against it for steady hand hold-ability and sharp images at 100%.

edit - Rich, I think the above is particularly relevant to someone coming from say an M9, as you posted above. It's really no surprise that 1/100 sec hand held is not going to result in files that are up to scrutiny at 100% from the A7r. Heck, I would not expect that even from my older a900 at 24MP's and a 50mm lens.

Edited on Nov 16, 2013 at 01:49 PM · View previous versions



Nov 16, 2013 at 01:41 PM
uhoh7
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p.72 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Well we can't be too shocked, it does look like the natives are king, and the RF stuff is more for fun.

The good news is that the iso performance means the 35/2.8 can go into very dim conditions.

So now we are going to need more native glass.

tap tap tap.......hear that Sony? I'm not getting any younger......



Nov 16, 2013 at 01:49 PM
Jonas B
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p.72 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Folks really need to be shooting at 1/250 sec or so handheld for a 35-50mm lens and FF 36MP's in my experience if they want very sharp images at 100% view. Also, as previously mentioned by sebboh I believe, even if the pixel density is the same as APS 16MP roughly, the longer focal length required for FF to get a similar AOV as when using APS and shorter focal lengths must be considered. So, it's not just pixel density but pixel density and the focal lengths used for that pixel density (longer focal lengths of course requiring higher
...Show more

It's the total enlargement factor deciding the "safe" shutter speed. With FF and a 50mm lens we can usually manage at 1/50-1/60 or so. On µ4/3 and 25mm we can do the same, just as we can with a 35mm lens and an APS-C camera.

When using the great Zuiko 75/1.8 on a µ4/3 camera (without IBIS) the rule of thumb says 1/150 or thereabout.

Total enlargement is also shooting distance dependent. Not many can shoot macros handheld with a flash as the main source of light.

Well, that's to my understanding.



Nov 16, 2013 at 01:50 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.72 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


uhoh7 wrote:
Well we can't be too shocked, it does look like the natives are king, and the RF stuff is more for fun.
The good news is that the iso performance means the 35/2.8 can go into very dim conditions.
So now we are going to need more native glass.
tap tap tap.......hear that Sony? I'm not getting any younger......


It is probably a good thing that natives are king... or at least right up there because if the system is to have longevity and appeal far beyond our little corner of the interweeb here, native glass has to deliver very high performance. Check, looks good so far.

But there's lots of room for RF lenses still. Lots of the close in work looks lovely regardless of lens. Not everyone is a distance WA landscape or architectural shooter.

I'd like to see some images made of RF 85's on these puppies, and from a bunch of SLR glass too,

But yeah, Sony, get on it and deliver more native glass. Personally I'd like either a 20mm f/2.8 or f/4 and a 24/2.8 or /4. Yesterday!






Nov 16, 2013 at 02:13 PM
miklar
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p.72 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


michaelwatkins wrote:
http://store.sony.CA/ finally has pre-order capability up, with a ship date 24 Nov. You can't order any FE lenses but that's not a problem as lenses just rob valuable light from the sensor. Think of the lens-less camera as the ultimate in bokeh machines.

At any rate, the end is nigh.


"just rob valuable light from the sensor"
Why not shoot with a "pin-hole"...
BTW, if you go to a Sony store, in Canada, and get a senior manager to help you, pre-ordering lenses can be done. I did so this morning for both the 35 and 55 mm lenses, already had the 24-70mm FE on backorder with them the day I placed the order for the a7R.
Cheers

Edited on Nov 16, 2013 at 02:20 PM · View previous versions



Nov 16, 2013 at 02:15 PM
sebboh
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p.72 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless




Jonas B wrote:
It's the total enlargement factor deciding the "safe" shutter speed. With FF and a 50mm lens we can usually manage at 1/50-1/60 or so. On µ4/3 and 25mm we can do the same, just as we can with a 35mm lens and an APS-C camera.

When using the great Zuiko 75/1.8 on a µ4/3 camera (without IBIS) the rule of thumb says 1/150 or thereabout.

Total enlargement is also shooting distance dependent. Not many can shoot macros handheld with a flash as the main source of light.

Well, that's to my understanding.


pixel density must be a component of enlargement factor if you are going to look at 100%. if you're just going to look at the same size prints pixel density doesn't for handholding.



Nov 16, 2013 at 02:18 PM
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