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Archive 2013 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.

  
 
jbledsoe
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p.4 #1 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


Dustin makes a good point. If you were standing in that spot for a few minutes to let your eyes normalize to the same view, I imagine what you would see would be nearly exactly the same as his finished photo in the sense of DR. Our eyes have far greater range than digital at about 10-12 stops or even B&W film which I believe is about 15-17.

If you want the photo to look like you saw it, something has to give.

Besides, if it isn't a drawing/sketch and it isn't a painting, then it must be a photo. right?



Jun 18, 2013 at 12:50 AM
Travis Rhoads
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p.4 #2 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


I don't think the debate is over the use of post processing to get the look of Dustin's shot to capture the DR of the scene, or the use of post processing at all...I think the thread title "blended images" is a bit off, since the fuss seems to be more about composite images, ones made up from images that are not taken in the same place and time...

I just don't have time to go look through someones website when they post a photo, to see if that sky has been used two or three times...

Many people have said that photography is art, I agree, but it is not like painting, until you start using bits and pieces from your portfolio to create something new...then it is like painting, like digital painting...and I think FM has a whole section dedicated to that kind of thing...



Jun 18, 2013 at 06:41 AM
Camperjim
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p.4 #3 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


Travis Rhoads wrote:
I don't think the debate is over the use of post processing to get the look of Dustin's shot to capture the DR of the scene, or the use of post processing at all...I think the thread title "blended images" is a bit off, since the fuss seems to be more about composite images, ones made up from images that are not taken in the same place and time...

...

You and some others feel this way because you have made a decision about what you feel is honest and/or acceptable. I cannot help but say again that I think you are on a slippery slope.

First you even admit that you cannot readily identify which images you feel are unacceptable because you cannot identify a composite.

Next, I know we have some great photographers on this forum and many are also great at post processing. They can start with a single image and apply powerful processing techniques which greatly alter the image...maybe the alteration is equivalent or even beyond what the result of a composite. If you think about some of the techniques that are available and in use, I think you would agree. Colors can be totally altered, substituted and adjusted either globally or selectively. I went to the Portland Japanese garden in the summertime and shot the famous maple tree near the garden entrance. The leaves were totally green with just a trace of yellow. With a few minutes of PP manipulation I produced the appearance of colorful Fall foliage. Later on I returned and shot that same Japanese maple at the heighth of the Fall color. My first image looks more natural and has at least equivalent impact. I am just a Photoshop Elements beginner. And I just mentioned one very simple technique. Can you begin to imagine what someone skilled can accomplish? Maybe not but you see it all the time on this forum.

The issue of disclosure has come up numerous times. I notice a big difference between different forum members. Some are very evasive and even hostile if they are asked about their processing. Some are proud and happy to discuss the techniques they use. I think those individuals are in the minority but I do think we tend to admire them. Of course, the more secretive individuals get lots of praise also. Their work is just as likely to end up as a featured thread with lots of positive comments. I am really not sure what we could possibly ask for in terms of disclosure. I think you would need to ask for an out of camera raw file to compare pre and post processed images.

Edited on Jun 18, 2013 at 08:50 AM · View previous versions



Jun 18, 2013 at 08:35 AM
Travis Rhoads
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p.4 #4 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


anytime a person has an opinion that differs from someone else...you are on a slippery slope...its ok to have differing opinions...and most of the time, I think I can spot a composite..., at least I thought so, clearly I have been fooled, as you have pointed out to me...and am now much more aware of my shortcomings...I am a photoshop n00b...admittedly. I don't see how people make them as seamless as they do...


Jun 18, 2013 at 08:45 AM
Camperjim
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p.4 #5 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


Travis, I doubt I am any better at recognizing composites. I am trying to teach myself Photoshop so I have sometimes look at the webpages of forum members. I have just happened to notice some members reuse the same sky at least on their webpages.




Jun 18, 2013 at 08:57 AM
jforkner
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p.4 #6 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


jdc562 wrote:

Here's my quick take:
1. Misrepresentation. If you fabricated a faked fabulous scene for the FM Forum by (1) combining elements from different photographs into one image, and (2) let the viewers believe you captured this from one photograph, then you're a faker and by omission, a liar.
---John


A little harsh, don't you think John. How does on control what the viewers believe? And where do you draw the line? I submit that a black & white photo is misrepresented, then. And what about filters? Is applying a red filter to darken the sky in a black & white photo compounding the misrepresentation? Roll over Ansel.

You either manipulate the image or you don't. Conversion to black & white, use of filters, stacking, masking, boosting colors, etc. are all manipulations of the basic photo. If you're going to demand purity of the photo, you can't allow any manipulations. You can't have it both ways. You can't say, for instance, that this manipulation is okay, but that one is not. For if you do, you've violated your basic premise.


Jack



Jun 18, 2013 at 08:59 AM
Camperjim
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p.4 #7 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


Jack, I think you make some good points.

Which is OK? Cloning a bird out of an image? Darkening the bird so it stands out against the sky? Moving the bird to a slightly better location? Adding a bird for the approximately the same time and place? Adding a bird from a different time and place?

Personally I would not want to draw a line and say any are unacceptable. Be aware that when you praise an image do not make assumptions. When I see a bird in the right place, I would not say "nice capture." I try to avoid using that term at all. One never knows.




Jun 18, 2013 at 09:26 AM
bboule
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p.4 #8 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


I generally have a problem with composites if they are not represented as such. HDR is usually obvious, focus blending is no big deal to me but can be fairly obvious, as is stitching for field of view/panorama.

It's not really a problem online, it seems like people are relatively forthcoming about technique, and forum members are relatively open about asking if an image is a composite.

Where I have had a problem with it is at local contests which are often based on prints, and were under the umbrella of PSA or New Engand Camera Club Council. We would have these contests with fairly strict rules about manipulation, if you won the local contest you might get a chance to submit to the regional contests. Composite images were forbidden in just about every category I remember, and people would constantly win these contests and then you'd discuss the image with them afterwards when "mingling" and it would become completely apparent the image was a blatant composite/digital art and not a photograph. (I.e. adding and subtracting major elements, swapping clouds in, etc..) That really bugged me as someone who stuck to the rules and would lose because I stuck to the rules. And the club would NEVER retract the prize or even discuss it even if the photographer told the whole group they broke the rules.

In those cases the rules were pretty clear, so it was easy to get bothered.

I think the whiny appeals that Ansel Adams manipulated are pretty lame, I've never really seen any evidence he added in mountains or clouds or that he wasn't actually hanging out with Georgia Okeefe and he swapped her head onto someone else's body, etc.. Jerry Uelsman also doesn't do much for the argument as his images are "fantastic" and he was not trying to fool anyone.

In computer graphics there is a term called the uncanny valley which refers to a computer generated human likeness which is accurate enough to be close, but not good enough to be foolproof. These images often cause revulsion in the viewer which is not caused by blantantly obvious cartoons and other generated images. My guess is for a lot of people the same thing is true for many photographs. If you photoshop a tree or an aircraft carrier floating in the sky, or add a T. Rex to a wedding image, that is far less likely to offend than adding extra birds or adding a thunderstorm that was not there.

Edited on Jun 18, 2013 at 10:44 AM · View previous versions



Jun 18, 2013 at 10:40 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #9 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


The words are harsh, but the example goes to the heart of what I regard as a certain need for honesty and artistic integrity.

It is not, pardon the awful photographic pun, a black and white issue. However, there is a natural inclination to not be pleased when we find out that we have been fooled and that the party fooling us took advantage of our trust or naivete.

If we present ourselves as artists who are able to see and create artistic work based things of beauty in the real world, we hope that those who see our work will believe that it is honest. (And "honest" is not the same as "perfect objective analog," so don't try to take my point there, OK?) In other words, they look at our work and trust that the place shown, the light under which the photograph was made, the conjunction of seemingly miraculous elements, and our vision are connected to real experiences and things and places. They can and should accept and even expect that we take steps to enhance and optimize the presentation of the images so that they will be effective as photographs or as photographic prints, but they presume that we enhance more than we invent. In fact, I think that many of us - even those of us who are perfectly happy to optimize images in these rather common ways - believe that we are presenting "subjectively truthful" images of things. Viewers grant us trust that our vision is special and that we see in the real world things that others might miss and that we see them in ways that others might not share.

A key word here is "trust."

At some point, though the precise location of that point or boundary is undefinable, it is possible to betray that trust and to create work that is not honest. The key problem comes in either claiming that trust is warranted (and I can think of several "name" photographers with large galleries who claim that the are due a trust that other photographers are not due, on the basis of their supposed effort and honesty) when it isn't or in presenting photographs that we know others will trust to be "honest" when we know that they will misinterpret.

This is, in fact, a "slippery slope," but each of us might consider where we want to come to rest on that slope. Do we want to put ourselves in a position where we must worry about how we would explain ourselves if asked? Do we feel that we cannot share the truth about images because by doing so we would make them less admirable? Do we know that viewers trust that a truth and honesty is to be found in our work that is not really there?

All of this is subjective and contextual. The boundaries will not be the same for all photographers nor certainly for all kinds of photography. If your goal is to present work that is fantastical and which overtly manipulates images using photographic tools, then there is no reason that I can think of not to do that, and beautiful, mysterious and powerful work can be the result - and it will be plainly obvious to any observer that you make no claim to presenting the objectively real but that you instead present the internal subjective reality. On the other hand, if you create a thing that cannot possibly be and either create an impression that it is real (for example, as has happened, telling fantastical yarns about the reality of the faked) or knowingly acquiesce to the misinterpretation on the part of your viewers, I think you might have some questions to ask of yourself.

And, again, this is not about which specific techniques you do or do not use - it is about honesty and trust.

Dan


jforkner wrote:
A little harsh, don't you think John. How does on control what the viewers believe? And where do you draw the line? I submit that a black & white photo is misrepresented, then. And what about filters? Is applying a red filter to darken the sky in a black & white photo compounding the misrepresentation? Roll over Ansel.

You either manipulate the image or you don't. Conversion to black & white, use of filters, stacking, masking, boosting colors, etc. are all manipulations of the basic photo. If you're going to demand purity of the photo, you can't allow any manipulations. You
...Show more



Jun 18, 2013 at 10:41 AM
Camperjim
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p.4 #10 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


Dan,
To me, this is absolutely not an issue of honesty and trust. We have already seen about half the people who have posted believe that photography should be creative and not limited to minor post processing techniques. I think those comments are indeed "honest" and I certainly would not expect anyone to label their image as a composite or to otherwise feel obligated to describe the processing.

I do understand that some photographers present "tall tales" or "fish" stories about their work. By the comments, I guess some people believe these stories. Most of us just read with amusement (or I guess in your case, disgust) and move on without comment.

To me this thread has been very valuable. I have no finger to point at anyone else. For me, it helps me to think about MY photography. What does photography mean to me and what do I want to say with my images? Some photographers want to shoot the icons and check them off the bucket list like some bird watchers do. Others want to make images that are stunning and have maximum impact. Others want to be true to what they photograph.

I learn a lot by thinking about how others approach photography. This helps me to define what I want in my photography. It also helps me to understand the type of images I like to look at. If my interests are different than someone else, I do not expect the world to do things my way. In fact I am learning I am a minority of one when it comes to developing my own voice and style of photography.



Jun 18, 2013 at 11:35 AM
dswiger
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p.4 #11 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


Ha, this is why I'm shooting more film

Yes, I know film images can be manipulated, but not easily and beyond my patience & skill.

Since I'm a "black & white" person (yea puns everywhere), I look at it quite simply and as others have stated.

1. Full disclosure trumps most all arguments on this.
2. Blending bracketed images whether for focus or exposure is within bounds.
In one case you're making up for dynamic range (are D800s OK), in the other you are making up for lensing or camera construction. Are view camera movements OK
3. Composite images are clearly a different category when adding a major element such as a sky, tree, person, etc. Removal of distracting elements, is dust bunny removal OK?
4. See Number 1

We all have seen images with jacked saturation, poor blending, over-sharpening. That's just inattentive, sloppy work (mostly). When you let the fib become a lie, you've crossed the line

Hey, Art is art. If someone wants a grotesque HDR image or a felt board constructed scene, have at it. But don't try to fool me and be proud when you did.


Cheers

Dan



Jun 18, 2013 at 11:42 AM
Guari
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p.4 #12 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


jdc562 wrote:
Good question.
Here's my quick take:
1. Misrepresentation. If you fabricated a faked fabulous scene for the FM Forum by (1) combining elements from different photographs into one image, and (2) let the viewers believe you captured this from one photograph, then you're a faker and by omission, a liar. Even if you produced a beautiful image, your reputation as a skillful, resourceful photographer on FM is deservedly diminished, and the beauty of your photograph as an accomplishment in nature is damaged, even if gallery-goers would pay a good price for it.
2. Truth in labeling. You can be a truthful
...Show more

+1



Jun 18, 2013 at 11:54 AM
Camperjim
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p.4 #13 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


Dan S, I think many of the photographers you are talking about would say they are trying to create a beautiful and interesting image. They are not trying to "fool" you anymore than a painter who has never been to the location but paints from a photograph and adds elements to improve the composition.

BTW, I looked at your webpage and very much enjoy your style of photography.



Jun 18, 2013 at 11:56 AM
jctriguy
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p.4 #14 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


jforkner wrote:
A little harsh, don't you think John. How does on control what the viewers believe? And where do you draw the line? I submit that a black & white photo is misrepresented, then. And what about filters? Is applying a red filter to darken the sky in a black & white photo compounding the misrepresentation? Roll over Ansel.

You either manipulate the image or you don't. Conversion to black & white, use of filters, stacking, masking, boosting colors, etc. are all manipulations of the basic photo. If you're going to demand purity of the photo, you can't allow any manipulations. You
...Show more

The line is more clear than you suggest. I don't think the majority of people commenting are expecting that you do no PP on an image. JDC562 specifically discussed combining elements from multiple images that weren't present together. That is worlds apart from filters or BW conversion. I would assume most people are fine with removing elements from an image, cloning out a tree branch or random airplane on the horizon. But, when you take a harvest moon from one side of the country and combine it with a sunset in that mountains and then post it to a landscape forum or photo contest, people are assuming it is an actual scene.



Jun 18, 2013 at 12:08 PM
jdc562
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p.4 #15 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


jforkner wrote:
A little harsh, don't you think John. How does on control what the viewers believe? And where do you draw the line? I submit that a black & white photo is misrepresented, then. And what about filters? Is applying a red filter to darken the sky in a black & white photo compounding the misrepresentation? Roll over Ansel.
You either manipulate the image or you don't. Conversion to black & white, use of filters, stacking, masking, boosting colors, etc. are all manipulations of the basic photo. If you're going to demand purity of the photo, you can't allow any manipulations. You
...Show more
Jack --- I specified what I meant--faked, misrepresented compositions on FM that combine elements from different images without saying so. This did not include most of the basic photo taking and processing treatments you raise. I did not demand "purity of the photo"--there is no such thing: lenses, cameras, film, sensors, are not perfect, and we all know camera settings and post-processing are essential to the final image. You and others raise Ansel Adams as an example. We do know that he carefully waited for dramatic weather, and then controlled his framing, film planes, contrast, initial exposures, subsequent film processing, and printing procedures, etc., to represent what he saw and felt. Not doing these things would not have made his photos more "pure." Enhancing our respect for his accomplishments and artistry, we have a certain trust that he didn't fake his compositions by pasting that moon for the Hernandez shot, or adding the fog, clouds, and waterfalls in the Yosemite shots. He is a good one to emulate. Or, go ahead and paste a moon and clouds to make a spectacular, collaged image for your FM-posted landscape, but just be honest about it.---John

[p.s. I appreciate the comments by JCTriGuy and others who posted while I was writing and understand what I meant.]

Edited on Jun 18, 2013 at 12:54 PM · View previous versions



Jun 18, 2013 at 12:28 PM
bboule
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p.4 #16 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


I'm certainly not tuned in enough to recognize them but I bet a lot of these composites that involve the moon or the stars can be "busted" simply by knowing where they were taken and the time they were taken!

Interestingly if you stick the moon at X in a photo taken at Y on time Z there is simple math that can prove the moon wasn't really there!

But yes, disclosure trumps any outrage.. as long as you don't misrepresent, composites & digital art are great!



Jun 18, 2013 at 12:35 PM
JimFox
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p.4 #17 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


bboule wrote:
I'm certainly not tuned in enough to recognize them but I bet a lot of these composites that involve the moon or the stars can be "busted" simply by knowing where they were taken and the time they were taken!

Interestingly if you stick the moon at X in a photo taken at Y on time Z there is simple math that can prove the moon wasn't really there!

But yes, disclosure trumps any outrage.. as long as you don't misrepresent, composites & digital art are great!


In general most people that post in the Landscape Forum with star shots, or specifically moon shots will make a comment concerning that. In most cases they are taking a 2nd shot of the moon at a larger focal length to blend in over the miniature moon that comes in a scene shot with a wide angle.

In the cases where people have posted a moon from one day or even a different location into a shot they are presenting, we have had cases of that, but many times the forum members have spotted the false moons by the simple calc as you mentioned. Or simply the shading is wrong between the moon and then the landscape, etc...

Funny, there is a guy on Pbase, and we have had one or two post here over the years that every single one of their postings has a huge moon in them, and in positions in the landscape that that moon just never is. But when asked, they all say they sell ton's of photos of that image or ones like it... so commercial success seems to breed this too...

So I am glad here in the FM Landscape forum, while once in a while someone get's "busted" for not being upfront, most members here will openly state any blending to such degrees.

Jim



Jun 18, 2013 at 01:10 PM
David Baldwin
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p.4 #18 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


I've been keeping off this thread, I felt it was enough not to point the finger at particular images, but to keep the thing general. In retrospect this was naive of me. If I have trodden on any toes I am sorry about it.

I would like to say that something Dan wrote really struck a chord with me:

"If we present ourselves as artists who are able to see and create artistic work based things of beauty in the real world, we hope that those who see our work will believe that it is honest. (And "honest" is not the same as "perfect objective analog," so don't try to take my point there, OK?) In other words, they look at our work and trust that the place shown, the light under which the photograph was made, the conjunction of seemingly miraculous elements, and our vision are connected to real experiences and things and places. They can and should accept and even expect that we take steps to enhance and optimize the presentation of the images so that they will be effective as photographs or as photographic prints, but they presume that we enhance more than we invent. In fact, I think that many of us - even those of us who are perfectly happy to optimize images in these rather common ways - believe that we are presenting "subjectively truthful" images of things. Viewers grant us trust that our vision is special and that we see in the real world things that others might miss and that we see them in ways that others might not share."

I have to say Dan that I don't think I've ever read anything so brilliantly expressed about the fundamental nature of photography. Really brilliant writing, thank you.



Jun 18, 2013 at 01:11 PM
andyjaggy82
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p.4 #19 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


I agree, Dan summed it up pretty nicely with that paragraph.


Jun 18, 2013 at 01:20 PM
dswiger
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p.4 #20 · Blended landscape images - legitimate or not.


andyjaggy82 wrote:
I agree, Dan summed it up pretty nicely with that paragraph.

Amen
Much more succinctly expressed than I or others have attempted.

Other Dan



Jun 18, 2013 at 05:01 PM
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