D. Diggler wrote:
I think most have it in the contract to be paid in full prior to the wedding.
Ok, but if you have 2 out of 3 payments, are you REALLY not showing up for the wedding?? Come on man you've seen this talked about here before...you still show up and shoot, and then hash it out afterwords...it's not worth the bad press if she's pissed at you, and lies, telling the entire blogosphere that you bailed on her wedding, for no reason....cause that's exactly what will happen.....
D. Diggler wrote:
Have you had any issues where it doesn't go as per contract? I can see you show up to shoot bride prep and the Dad has the check book.
One time only; dad showed up with chequebook but it was out of cheques. I said no worries (I still had the photos I was shooting after all) and he returned with cash within an hour or so. I felt kinda bad. Most pay the week prior because I include with my reminder how awkward it is to ask for money during such a day.
Final payment for me is due 30 days out. I've never had a problem with it. I don't want to sound so definitive, but, I think any issues arising in regards to payment are likely related to: how much they spent, and managing expectations.
I can see this issue arising for someone that is on the lower budget end of photography, sub $2500 total. Money is a bigger deal to them than to others, and so they may or may not have the amount, and/or are trying to pull one over on you and pay after the day of the wedding.
The other more likely reason is how frequently, clearly, and assertively you discuss and remind your clients about this important policy. I think being assertive and firm, yet casual and relaxed, and managing expectations from the very beginning is the best way to prevent this. It's just business, nothing personal.
If you do decide to be flexible with their request, at the very least write up a new contract and be very firm on the conditions. Explicitly state any penalties and interest with dates and deadlines if they don't end up paying on the day of. Just tell them this is a standard contract that you use, so they don't think you drafted it up just for them. Hopefully this will reinstate that your policies are firm, and if they fail to produce the final payment on the day of, there will be set consequences.
Elaine, just be sure you're clear that the funds remain non-refundable or whatever the original contract says happens to the funds within 30 days of the wedding date, in the event that the couple do cancel the wedding.
This is important: you are modifying the contract with this exchange. If your contract is well-written, it says something like "this agreement may only be modified in writing, signed by both parties." If so, then you must have all signatories sign off on this change to the payment schedule, and be clear what the limitations are.
sboerup wrote:
Final payment for me is due 30 days out. I've never had a problem with it. I don't want to sound so definitive, but, I think any issues arising in regards to payment are likely related to: how much they spent, and managing expectations.
If you (i.e. anyone reading this) absolutely are not prepared to shoot unless paid in full before hand, then the 30 day thing is actually a smarter plan as it gives everyone longer time to resolve any dramas.
I think people often bumble around and expect to be able to reach deals at the last minute and head off problems. A lot of people don't take this stuff to seriously. A 30 day window gives you time to raise your concerns and them time to react.
I know I have given up now but if I had thought harder about it I would have implanted 30 days instead of 7. It actually allows everyone to be more reasonable.
NathanHamler wrote:
are you REALLY not showing up for the wedding?? Come on man you've seen this talked about here before...you still show up and shoot, and then hash it out afterwords...it's not worth the bad press if she's pissed at you
Are you talking to me? I agree with you! You show up and shoot and deal with it later. If the contract says there's a second shooter than you better bring a second shooter.
A couple years back I had one where the final payment was due on the wedding day and - I don't know for sure what the problem was - at the reception the groom told me he was too messed up to write the check and could he mail it to me. Maybe was legit, I don't know. At any rate, about a week later I got the check.
I wouldn't bring a second unless at least 75% of the contract was paid in advance. I'm not taking a hit on $300-400 because someone doesn't want to stick to their side of the agreement. I'll gladly take that fee off the balance later. They would be told this in advance. That gives them time to make the right decision.
I have a very specific policy of steps I follow...
1. First reminder at 60 days.
2. Second reminder at 45 days.
3. If balance has not been paid at 30 days, they get a "final" reminder that payment must be received within 7 days.
4. If balance has not been paid at 21 days, they get a letter stating any second photographer is forfeited if payment in not received within 7 days.
5. If balance has not been paid at 14 days, they get a letter stating the second photographer has been cancelled, and any fee charged for that photographer has been removed from the remaining balance. A new balance is then stated and requested within 7 days.
6. At the 7 day mark, the client is notified that I will show n' shoot, but images will be left on cards in a vault until the balance is paid.
Update: She immediately forwarded me 60% of the remaining balance yesterday as I told her I would only agree to it if she agreed to forward me the 60% immediately (which like I said she did) and that I would receive cash immediately upon arrival at the wedding. I explained to her how awkward it would be to have to chase them around on their wedding date for money. She said her wedding planner told her that I should not be paid in full prior to the wedding as their is no guarantee I will show up. I am very "anxious" to meet this wedding planner. She also told me the wedding planner would be handling all of the payments. She asked if I would take a cheque, I said "NO, it has to be cash ONLY". (which sucks, because now on top of worrying about my gear, I have to carry a big amount of cash around the day of).
I wanted so to say "so, ummm you trust that your planner is really going to pay everyone and not take all the money and run" Just to stick it to the planner but took the high road.
D. Diggler wrote:
Are you talking to me? I agree with you! You show up and shoot and deal with it later. If the contract says there's a second shooter than you better bring a second shooter.
Lol i know that you know the drill, i just wanted to be clear for people who maybe really DON'T know what to do in this situation....it's not worth killing the client relationship over possibly just a simple miscommunication.....didn't mean to offend...
(this part isn't to you D. Diggler) I kinda feel like b/c wedding photographer have such a personal, one on one type relationship with clients, you can QUICKLY come off as a money grubbing whore, who doesn't understand people, or the stress of a wedding, or the whole process involved.
Alan (amonline), man i would never dream of sending a client a "threatening" email like that, saying my 2nd is no longer coming, b/c i haven't been pain in full....or that their images are basically "being held for ransom, and not touched until you get paid"..... YES, i know you run a business, but it's like you're only seeing your clients as dollar signs, and not people....
Shit happens in peoples lives....weddings are stressful for cleints.....there's no reason to add to their stress by saying stuff like that....
YES, there is a fine line between being walked all over, taken advantage of, and just being understanding. You have to find that balance. I'm not saying you don't, but some people reading this might interpret it incorrectly, and go all loan shark on clients that haven't paid lol.
eephoto wrote:
I wanted so to say "so, ummm you trust that your planner is really going to pay everyone and not take all the money and run" Just to stick it to the planner but took the high road.
Yeah, I would have wanted to ask that too
The next question would have been, what do you expect me to do if I turn up and "don't" get paid on arrival? It's a fair question to which I'd like to have the answer in writing so I have something to refer to.
We get 1 or 2 a year like this. If they are nice about it and sincere, then I will cut them a break. I just looked and I had 12 clients in all from the start of my business that asked this. 2 were total asses about it. I told the one I wouldn't shoot until paid. So the day of they had family running to the ATM and getting cash. if they were nice then I would have let it slide. But I felt I wouldnt get paid in the end.
The other one that was a jerk demanded they not pay until after the wedding because they needed the money. I said ok but I am not editing photos until paid in full. It was 6 months later I get a call from the mother of the bride asking for the photos or she was suing me. I laughed and said I am not editing them until I get the final $1k they owe me. So I said good luck with that in court. Well it went to 1 year and I sent 6 emails and 2 certified letters. Still no payment. I got a letter from the mother of the bride and said we had a court date. I went with my evidence and the judge ordered them to not only pay the $1k they owed me, but my court costs and they had 30 days to do so or I was no longer liable for the wedding photos. 30 days went by and they never paid, so they never got their photos. I ended up editing them and used them in my portfolio.
Update: She immediately forwarded me 60% of the remaining balance yesterday as I told her I would only agree to it if she agreed to forward me the 60% immediately (which like I said she did) and that I would receive cash immediately upon arrival at the wedding. I explained to her how awkward it would be to have to chase them around on their wedding date for money. She said her wedding planner told her that I should not be paid in full prior to the wedding as their is no guarantee I will show up. I am very "anxious" to meet this wedding planner. She also told me the wedding planner would be handling all of the payments. She asked if I would take a cheque, I said "NO, it has to be cash ONLY". (which sucks, because now on top of worrying about my gear, I have to carry a big amount of cash around the day of).
I wanted so to say "so, ummm you trust that your planner is really going to pay everyone and not take all the money and run" Just to stick it to the planner but took the high road.
Effing wedding planners. That's most likely the source of your whole problem right there. Little bird chirping in the bride's ear. I suppose this wedding planner has never heard the phrase "contractually obligated" in regards to guarantees that you'll show up. RIDICULOUS. So sorry you're having to deal with this nonsense man.
paparazzinick wrote:
We get 1 or 2 a year like this. If they are nice about it and sincere, then I will cut them a break. I just looked and I had 12 clients in all from the start of my business that asked this. 2 were total asses about it. I told the one I wouldn't shoot until paid. So the day of they had family running to the ATM and getting cash. if they were nice then I would have let it slide. But I felt I wouldnt get paid in the end.
The other one that was a jerk demanded they not pay until after the wedding because they needed the money. I said ok but I am not editing photos until paid in full. It was 6 months later I get a call from the mother of the bride asking for the photos or she was suing me. I laughed and said I am not editing them until I get the final $1k they owe me. So I said good luck with that in court. Well it went to 1 year and I sent 6 emails and 2 certified letters. Still no payment. I got a letter from the mother of the bride and said we had a court date. I went with my evidence and the judge ordered them to not only pay the $1k they owed me, but my court costs and they had 30 days to do so or I was no longer liable for the wedding photos. 30 days went by and they never paid, so they never got their photos. I ended up editing them and used them in my portfolio. ...Show more →
Honest question here... looking back, were there any tell-tale signs of the problems to come? Or did they seem like average, or even ideal, clients at the time of booking? Scary if this one came out of left field.
NathanHamler wrote:
Alan (amonline), man i would never dream of sending a client a "threatening" email like that, saying my 2nd is no longer coming, b/c i haven't been pain in full....or that their images are basically "being held for ransom, and not touched until you get paid"..... YES, i know you run a business, but it's like you're only seeing your clients as dollar signs, and not people....
Shit happens in peoples lives....weddings are stressful for cleints.....there's no reason to add to their stress by saying stuff like that....
Not at all. My correspondence is in no way threatening. And, as I said, I've never had to reach step 5.
I did have to tell a client once that I would not be able to bring my second because they had yet to be paid for. Remember, that's approaching 7-14 days late. In that situation, I received the full payment in less than 48 hours, so it worked just fine. I made my point.
And regarding the cards, if I haven't gotten paid for the remaining 15-20 hours I'm about to put into processing, design, and delivery, you can bet I'll tell them I'm not touching the images until I'm paid. I'm fairly certain 95% of the members here would do exactly the same.
I think you're reading my previous post a little more harsh than it is. All I can say is they've worked in a couple of situations. I'm not mean about it. Read it with a more open mind.
I encounter this with maybe 5-10% of my clients. I could be a hardass about it, but I decide to be the "nice guy" and let them pay on the day of. To this day I have not had one single problem with this arrangement.
In this industry you've got to pick your battles, and for me this isn't a battle worth fighting. There is more to lose than to gain, IMO.
paparazzinick wrote:
We get 1 or 2 a year like this. If they are nice about it and sincere, then I will cut them a break. I just looked and I had 12 clients in all from the start of my business that asked this. 2 were total asses about it. I told the one I wouldn't shoot until paid. So the day of they had family running to the ATM and getting cash. if they were nice then I would have let it slide. But I felt I wouldnt get paid in the end.
The other one that was a jerk demanded they not pay until after the wedding because they needed the money. I said ok but I am not editing photos until paid in full. It was 6 months later I get a call from the mother of the bride asking for the photos or she was suing me. I laughed and said I am not editing them until I get the final $1k they owe me. So I said good luck with that in court. Well it went to 1 year and I sent 6 emails and 2 certified letters. Still no payment. I got a letter from the mother of the bride and said we had a court date. I went with my evidence and the judge ordered them to not only pay the $1k they owed me, but my court costs and they had 30 days to do so or I was no longer liable for the wedding photos. 30 days went by and they never paid, so they never got their photos. I ended up editing them and used them in my portfolio. ...Show more →
WOW!!!! Did the MOB really think the judge was going to toss out your contract with the couple, because the MOB didn't think they needed to pay to get their images. Wow...goodbye to the traditional way of doing business and let's all go be thieves cause we know the judge will side with us! Like is she for real Who showed up in court, the MOB or the bride and groom? That's crazy!!
amonline wrote:
And regarding the cards, if I haven't gotten paid for the remaining 15-20 hours I'm about to put into processing, design, and delivery, you can bet I'll tell them I'm not touching the images until I'm paid. I'm fairly certain 95% of the members here would do exactly the same.
Sounds like a fair approach. Generally the post-processing/design/delivery work involves more hours than shooting the wedding itself. If you have their deposit, and show up and shoot but then don't receive the balance, the deposit sort-of pays for the hours you've put in, so you're not badly out of pocket.
Of course if you don't show up, the bridges are burned and you have no chance of salvage, and you can bet that you'll get bad-mouthed as an a@## photographer.
I agree entirely with not touching the images til paid. At that point, the images are the only leverage you have.
deepbluejh wrote:
I encounter this with maybe 5-10% of my clients. ... To this day I have not had one single problem with this arrangement.
I don't know if you can call it a "problem" really but the usual issue I run into when getting paid on the wedding day is not getting the money till late in the day, like at the reception or the end of the evening. I prefer to get it when I first arrive and get it out of the way. I would say about half the time they don't pay me till the reception so all day long I work with the thought in mind that I still need to collect and I hope that nothing goes wrong with payment. Bottom line, I would say that getting paid on the wedding day has not always been clear sailing.
Mitch W wrote:
Honest question here... looking back, were there any tell-tale signs of the problems to come? Or did they seem like average, or even ideal, clients at the time of booking? Scary if this one came out of left field.
at first they were awesome. as time went on, they started to become a real pain and I knew something was up.
Who showed up in court, the MOB or the bride and groom? That's crazy!!