Brian Virts wrote:
It depends on the wedding and the couple. I have been known to be flexible with clients I really want. It's all about getting the business you want over just getting business.
This is exactly the way I feel, as well. It's probably not a popular response here, but for me it's not just about making money and paying the bills. Sometimes, I want to do things that are fun or unique, or the couple just seems like they'd be really fun to work with.
In March, I'm shooting the wedding for a former Miss Illinois and that never would have happened without some flexibility on my side. The upside of my doing this will far outweigh anything I've given up.
I "make exceptions" every once in a while. If you're giving a discount just make sure that you're doing it for something that doesn't make you look desperate. I never drop my rates into a client's "budget" though. I drop it closer but still higher than what their budget is while removing services/products and say that's the best I can do. This shows them that I'm trying to work with them, and I do make sure that it is still almost if not as profitable as no discount.
The client, if they really want to book with you, will stretch to meet you part of the way. This to me is a good sign of trust and their value in your work (although TRR mentioned in a recent podcast the idea of giving your 'worst' for a client's 'max budget' is not an ideal business move--which I think is one way of looking at it--but I like to think my 'worst' is still quite good).
We do 5-10% for family and friends, and we throw in full-resolution digital negatives and multiple copies for their families. My best friend (who hopefully is still getting married this summer - long story) will get his wedding done for free. He's my best friend.
Otherwise, I do. Why? Because it's my business and I'll do what I want. And sometimes, I meet a client I really want to work with. And sometimes, like recently, I have a client say, "I don't care about digital negatives. I want prints and an album." That shows where their heart is, and I like that.
When someone contacts me immediately asking for a discount because their venue will be the talk of the town (no it won't) or great for my portfolio (no it won't) or how lucky I will be (no, I'm not), then they get nothing. When people are kind, and tell me that they're going to stretch their budget to hire me? You bet your butt.
We never discount. I have many reasons, but among them is that I think it hurts your business more than it helps. This is a soapbox issue for me, but I'm on my phone so I'll leave it at that.
definitely good points. we're only going into our second year in business. so we were kind of winging it and assuming since we would be hitting the total amount of income we needed, then it was okay to discount a couple packages here and there. i'll be re-assessing that in the future. also, thanks for the heads up about the foresight guys. they're great to work with.
paparazzinick wrote:
Giving discounts depends on your business model and how you want to run the show.
Here is what we do. Teachers get a 10% discount. My wife is a teacher and we shoot a lot of teachers so they all appreciate it. They spread the word and we get more teacher clients.
As for other discounts. We don't come right out and say it. But if someone asks nicely and we think it would have them book us right then and there, we may offer something. Again it is only 10% we would offer or something for free. We have given parent albums for free. It all depends on how much they are going to spend with us. An example. We just met with a bride that was looking at a $3500 package. She asked for a discount. If we would have given her a 10% discount then we would lose $450. We instead offered her 2 parent albums which has a value to the client of $1000 but only costs us $250. So to the client it looks like they got $1000 free and in turn we only lost $250 instead of $450. ...Show more →
I view discounts the same way. I look at the actual cost vs. the cost I'm charging a client. I'd much rather give a coffee table album, which is low cost to me, than cut money right off the top.
I've only had time to read through this a little bit and I understand the reasoning behind not discounting. I've seen post after post where photographers break down their costs to explain why they are priced they way they are. It's all true, we have real costs. But sometimes I feel it's better to discount and get a wedding rather than let it go. Here is a made up example and let me know what you think...
It's February and income in slow because it's the winter months. I have a surplus that I'm living on, but any extra money is great (commercial work, deposits, newborn sessions). That income helps me to go into May (when things pick up) in a better standing. Someone comes along with a last minute wedding happening in March. They are on a tight budget (or so they say!) and only want a shoot and burn. My cost for that is $3500, but they can only afford $3000 max because they are paying for the wedding themselves.
Here are a few things that are true about my situation...
1. My equipment is paid off and I'm not buying anything new to shoot this wedding
2. My office supplies are stocked
3. My car is paid off
4. My computer, hard drives, etc. is paid for
5. I will have to pay the same amount for health and business insurance in March no matter what
6. I will have to pay my account the same amount to do my taxes no matter what
7. I will have to pay my web hosting fees
8. On and on...
We are full time and whenever money comes in we put 25% aside for taxes. If take the wedding at $3000 instead of $3500 my expenses would be...
1. $750 put aside for taxes
2. Maybe $50 in gas and tolls
If I said no I'd stay home and make no money. If I said yes I'd shoot the wedding and walk away with $2200 after expenses.
I'm not an expert in finances (my wife and accountant take care of that), so there might be something I'm missing, but I'd rather take the wedding and make a little less, than deny the wedding and get nothing at all.
This year we have 34 weddings booked, but the winter has been really slow. Only 4 weddings between January and April. Once May hits we are rolling, but in these winter months I'll take what I can get.
With that said, I realize discounting a September wedding 7 months out isn't smart. It's probably more fear based rather than logic based, but I do feel in some situations it's okay to discount.
TRReichman wrote:
There is no shame in paying a bill. There are better ways to market than lowering the price. Do what you will.
- trr
I agree and doing that might hurt the big picture of what I'm trying to accomplish as a business. But wouldn't you agree that the expenses argument is not completely logical for a one time situation? That argument holds up if I'm discounting every wedding. I feel denying the wedding in the example I just laid out would be more philosophically based.
And you do realize I'm not excited about going toe to toe with you I've seen what happens!
Are you absolutely, 100% positive that they would never, ever under any circumstance pay you $3500?
If you are, then I would spend their wedding day working through why that's the case.
If you're not, then I would leave it as is and try to book it.... Then think through why they are getting the impression that you'll do it for $3000.
While I disagree with a bit of your logic, I can't argue that money in your pocket is more than money that's not. But I do think that there's a way to brand so that discounting becomes a non-issue
Tony Hoffer wrote:
Are you absolutely, 100% positive that they would never, ever under any circumstance pay you $3500?
If you are, then I would spend their wedding day working through why that's the case.
If you're not, then I would leave it as is and try to book it.... Then think through why they are getting the impression that you'll do it for $3000.
While I disagree with a bit of your logic, I can't argue that money in your pocket is more than money that's not. But I do think that there's a way to brand so that discounting becomes a non-issue...Show more →
I 100% agree and I hope to get there someday. I'm more making the argument that the expenses reasoning isn't the core issue, it's more what you want to be as a brand and a business.
And if I'm quick to discount I'll never know if they would have paid full price. More recently I've been holding my ground and I find that people are willing to stretch.
morby wrote:
I agree and doing that might hurt the big picture of what I'm trying to accomplish as a business. But wouldn't you agree that the expenses argument is not completely logical for a one time situation? That argument holds up if I'm discounting every wedding. I feel denying the wedding in the example I just laid out would be more philosophically based.
And you do realize I'm not excited about going toe to toe with you I've seen what happens!
I would agree that expenses don't justify pricing. Expenses inform the minimum you need to charge to be profitable/sustainable. Your underlying value ought to determine your price. If you are explaining price by talking about expenses you absolutely aren't worth it.
$500 isn't the end of the world. Depending on how much you are charging overall $500 may not matter enough to care. Then again, that's true for the client as well - an additional $500 may not make or break their budget.
If I charged $3500 I wouldn't discount to $3K for nothing - they'd have to give something up.
Full disclosure - I have in the recent past discounted 3 weddings. One was a favor to a coordinator. The client had booked a big wedding then she lost her job and started freaking out. The coordinator (who I am very close to and who I love working with) asked me for a favor and promised that it would be the easiest job we would ever do. We found a less-expensive album for them and did the job for fewer hours than we normally work. The coordinator worked their ass off to make it utterly simple for us. Totally worth it for that relationship - I wouldn't have discounted for the client though they were nice people.
The second instance was when a family that we had already shot weddings for had 2 daughters get married in the same year. They were also trying to keep these 2 weddings in line with the cousin's weddings that were pretty lavish and money was tight to get everything together in that amount of time. I like the family and nudged things a bit considering they were booking 2 weddings at once (and moving one date to get us). Sometimes (believe it or not) I do like to be nice. I am still priced appropriately for the small adjustment to not really impact me in the grand scheme.
I don't discount to fit me into their budget (their budget needs to stretch). I might consider compromising something (not just lowering the price) when everyone is giving a bit to make something work or when I am on board on a personal level (which is very rare - I won't take a sob story from 6-figure budgets).
For someone who's established as morby, Tony and TRR are, I think it's one issue. And I completely understand Tony's point. I can't wait to be in that position that I can do that.
I'm just starting out in my second year and even as I increase my pricing, it's still a bit of a challenge as I haven't shot enough high-end weddings for some of my brides to easily see themselves in my photographs. And I still have to pay the bills. But more importantly, this year's weddings have to help me make 2014 more profitable. while I'm not going to put myself out there as a CL shooter just to have a bunch of weddings in my portfolio - those weddings won't help me sell myself as a high-end wedding photographer, but I do have be strategic about getting as much as I can in 2013 while building for the next year.
How many Friday's do you typically shoot? I.E. What are the chances that you will get another inquiry for that Friday. I know many photographers who discount off season and off Saturday's just because they are basically bonus days.
I'm all for cutting services/products to keep a perceived value. But when it comes down to it, I have only shot one Friday in the last two years so I'm more than happy to do what it take to book a off day. Even more so if I were full time as that would mean I'm not worry about taking a vacation day from my day job.
If you book a ton of Friday's in your area, and therefore the chances are pretty good that you will get another inquiry for that day, then don't discount.
When you start thinking about yourself as behind other people, or without the advantages they have (i.e. they are "more established") I feel obligated to ask what specifically has to happen for you to feel that you could enjoy the same advantage? It is probably less than you think, and you are probably creating the obstacles you're facing.
TRReichman wrote:
When you start thinking about yourself as behind other people, or without the advantages they have (i.e. they are "more established") I feel obligated to ask what specifically has to happen for you to feel that you could enjoy the same advantage? It is probably less than you think, and you are probably creating the obstacles you're facing.
- trr
I'm going to steal this and make it into a t-shirt and a poster.
I've seen what happens!