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Archive 2013 · Dynamic Range

  
 
chez
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p.15 #1 · Dynamic Range


ggreene wrote:
Because it's your only option at the current time and foreseeable future if you need better low ISO DR. You are posting in a gear forum. Why wouldn't someone tell you to get the equipment that provides you with that capability?



Ggreene, I think we discussed this before. I am not in a position to sell all my Canon gear and switch systems. Cost will be too much and equivalent lens are not available. I also believe Canon will bring out new sensor technology in the near future.
However, I see nothing wrong discussing the limitations of current gear. Don't know why so many people get their pink panties into knots when their brand of gear gets criticized. It's a tool after all, not your favorite sports team.



Mar 03, 2013 at 11:16 AM
Cliff L.
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p.15 #2 · Dynamic Range


chez wrote:

It's a tool after all, not your favorite sports team.


I suspect that for 99% or more of the people on these forums, a camera is a luxury toy, not a tool. That is why they respond emotionally rather than logically, when someone tells them their favourite toy isn't the biggest and best.

For the small minority for whom the camera actually is a tool, they know that virtually any camera made in the last decade is capable of handling the task at hand if the user is competent or creative enough.



Mar 03, 2013 at 01:51 PM
jj_glos
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p.15 #3 · Dynamic Range


molson wrote:
I suspect that for 99% or more of the people on these forums, a camera is a luxury toy, not a tool. That is why they respond emotionally rather than logically, when someone tells them their favourite toy isn't the biggest and best.

For the small minority for whom the camera actually is a tool, they know that virtually any camera made in the last decade is capable of handling the task at hand if the user is competent or creative enough.


Sort of, my hobby is a luxury. The camera is still just a tool for my hobby... If I was still single I'd most likely be changing systems yearly My wife (un)fortunately keeps that in check...



Mar 03, 2013 at 01:56 PM
James Markus
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p.15 #4 · Dynamic Range


This reminds me of the 12 bit versus 14 color threads a few years ago. I was curious if you did identical exposures using the same shutter speed, same f-stop, same lighting, same angle (on a tripod), and even the same lens (Nikkor 105mm f2.5 ais). Then to process the raw files using the exactly the same settings in ACR with no adjustments at all to the jpg. Would you be able to see a greater dynamic range between my D800 and 5D mark II? NOPE! Other than a minor color difference - I can not see any dynamic range improvement at all.

http://www.photomatter.com/_images/WebPosts/DR_Comparison.jpg

The only examples on line that I have seen that do show a difference is with horrendously under exposed files where the shadows have been pulled multiple stops. Hello - Nikon has been better at shadow recovery for years and years...just as Canon has been better at highlight recovery.

Dynamic Range only matters if you are trying to extend or stretch that range from a properly exposed file. What would be innovative would be for some manufacturer to incorporate the Nikon Shadow capabilities with the Canon highlight capabilities. IMO - YMMV



Mar 03, 2013 at 02:26 PM
chez
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p.15 #5 · Dynamic Range


James Markus wrote:
This reminds me of the 12 bit versus 14 color threads a few years ago. I was curious if you did identical exposures using the same shutter speed, same f-stop, same lighting, same angle (on a tripod), and even the same lens (Nikkor 105mm f2.5 ais). Then to process the raw files using the exactly the same settings in ACR with no adjustments at all to the jpg. Would you be able to see a greater dynamic range between my D800 and 5D mark II? NOPE! Other than a minor color difference - I can not see any dynamic
...Show more

Obviously if your controlled lighting example has a dynamic range well within both cameras limits, you won't see a difference. Now shoot a setting sun in the Grand Canyon where you want to preserve details in both the sunlit tops as well as the dark shadowed bottoms and you would see the difference expanded DR provides.



Mar 03, 2013 at 02:42 PM
tsdevine
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p.15 #6 · Dynamic Range



As Chez notes, a studio setting is not really a good example, although it appears to me that the highlights are more subdued in the Nikon shot and the shadows are slightly brighter as well. Does that say that the Nikon is showing the ability to capture more DR, maybe....maybe not.

Landscape photography is where you are going to run into more challenges, especially if you want to keep it to a single exposure.

-Tim



Mar 03, 2013 at 03:05 PM
dhphoto
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p.15 #7 · Dynamic Range


The contrast curves in those two examples are completely different, they have also been reduced in size and tonality for use on the web.

The white in the D800 is already off-white while the contrast in the 5D2 shot is much higher. This is all stuff you would naturally adjust in a RAW conversion and really means nothing

If you were to listen to the naysayers here you might start to believe you can't shoot landscapes on a Canon and that Nikon hold a significant advantage. They simply do not, the D800 is a good camera with a good sensor but so are the equivalent Canon's if you know what you're doing.

Look in any magazine or newspaper or at any website, can you tell, without hesitation which make of camera took a picture. No of course you can't.



Mar 03, 2013 at 03:15 PM
tsdevine
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p.15 #8 · Dynamic Range



Just for the record, I really like my 5D II. I don't have many complaints.... But a little more DR is probably tops on my list of things that I hope Canon improves on in their next generation sensors (whenever they come to pass.) A bump in resolution is another one that would be welcome for landscapes (unless it impacts sensor performance detrimentally in other ways.)

But I'm not going to sell all my equipment and invest in a Nikon system. Just giving Canon some prodding...if by chance they ever scan the forums (which I doubt.)

For shooting in a studio environment, or where lighting can be controlled....I would assume this is all a non-issue. Even for landscapes, most of the time I get great results. It just might put a few more in the "keepers" pile if I had a little more sensor latitude.

-Tim




Mar 03, 2013 at 04:02 PM
tsdevine
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p.15 #9 · Dynamic Range


Oh, and here is a shot from yesterday for those clamoring for examples. It was late afternoon on a very overcast day, I also had the benefit of the leaves being off the trees. The left side of the frame was still not getting as much light as the right. If it had been brighter, I most likely would have come up empty on this shot. The water gets too "hot" and if I want to keep the highlights, the shadows get crushed.

http://www.devine.us/img/s8/v75/p1459057770-5.jpg


Luckily I was able to handle the shadows adequately in RAW conversion...they were fairly clean. It's hard to control weather though and often as conditions change, I don't have an ideal situation from shot to shot.

-Tim



Mar 03, 2013 at 04:07 PM
skibum5
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p.15 #10 · Dynamic Range


dhphoto wrote:
Yes I also have a 5D3, no I have not seen it, but then I don't push shadows that much or pixel-peep at 200%, I use fill-in wherever possible instead


fill-in flash?

If that is what you bring up then maybe you should realize that you tend to shoot different sorts of things than some of the others posting here?



Mar 03, 2013 at 04:14 PM
James Markus
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p.15 #11 · Dynamic Range


Harry [chez},
I disagree. Look at the highlight in the top left hand side groove of each photo - look at the almost black shadow of the bottom right hand side groove. Did either camera inherently resolve more detail in these areas? This controlled example exceeded both cameras SOOC dynamic range abilities. The only way to stretch that range is by software, and we already know how each file holds up to pulling shadows and filling highlights. My point isn't that you can't achieve a broader DR with the D800. The point is that a straight capture doesn't show it. It takes manipulation via software to show it. In that regard, the D800 files are more flexible without breaking down than the 5D mkII. So I ask - does it matter? For years I bracketed on film...and many do hdr using multiple exposures. There are many ways to skin a cat. I like both of my systems, and I still think each has the other beat at different ends of the highlight/shadow spectrum.

chez wrote:
Obviously if your controlled lighting example has a dynamic range well within both cameras limits, you won't see a difference. Now shoot a setting sun in the Grand Canyon where you want to preserve details in both the sunlit tops as well as the dark shadowed bottoms and you would see the difference expanded DR provides.




Mar 03, 2013 at 04:30 PM
chez
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p.15 #12 · Dynamic Range


James Markus wrote:
Harry [chez},
I disagree. Look at the highlight in the top left hand side groove of each photo - look at the almost black shadow of the bottom right hand side groove. Did either camera inherently resolve more detail in these areas? This controlled example exceeded both cameras SOOC dynamic range abilities. The only way to stretch that range is by software, and we already know how each file holds up to pulling shadows and filling highlights. My point isn't that you can't achieve a broader DR with the D800. The point is that a straight capture doesn't show
...Show more

Actually, looking deeper at those two photos, I do see more details in the shadows from the D800 image, and I also see the highlights not starting to burn out.

Currently, I use GND filters and merge multiple shots to handle excessive DR. Would I love not to have to resort to those techniques...you bet. Do I think I'll never have to control the DR in my landscapes...I'm not that naive. Do I think ( know ) the Nikon sensors allows me more flexibility with respect to shooting high DR scenes...yes. Would I love more DR capabilities in my shots...yep.

The thing I find funny is the crowd that swoops down on discussions on DR. They claim they don't need anymore for the type of photography they shoot, and by association, they ignorantly think other people shooting under different conditions also don't need more range. I don't understand their line of reasoning. Instead of feeling fortunate their current equipment meets all their needs, they would rather come across as being higher than thou and try belittle people that just might have a need different than they have.



Mar 03, 2013 at 04:54 PM
tsdevine
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p.15 #13 · Dynamic Range



Here's something to think about. Is there anyone contributing to this thread that would argue that Canon sensors capture too much dynamic range?? In other words it's causing an issue in their shooting, and it might help if Canon would support less?

All I am saying is that I could use a couple more stops in certain situations. If Canon supported 2 less stops in dynamic range than it currently does....would anyone who currently says this is a non-isssue (for not only them...but everyone)...start to complain? I find it hard to believe Canon found perfection, it seems like it is not outside the ream of possibility that there could be room for a little improvement...

-Tim



Mar 03, 2013 at 05:05 PM
jstntym
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p.15 #14 · Dynamic Range


Tim, thats a beautiful image of the falls. I'd love to have that kind of landscape to shoot around here..beaches just don't have that kind of feeling to me. Well done!


Mar 03, 2013 at 06:49 PM
tsdevine
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p.15 #15 · Dynamic Range



Thanks! I just found these falls this past summer. My favorite place to go shoot waterfalls is far enough north that it is an all day trip, but this one is just a little over an hour away with lots of places to hike in the area. So it's something I can do more spur of the moment with the family.

I know what you mean, I like the rocky coast of Maine....but the closest ocean points are all sand. And don't get me started about the beauty of the western states....drool.

jstntym wrote:
Tim, thats a beautiful image of the falls. I'd love to have that kind of landscape to shoot around here..beaches just don't have that kind of feeling to me. Well done!




Mar 03, 2013 at 07:12 PM
ggreene
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p.15 #16 · Dynamic Range


chez wrote:
It's a tool after all, not your favorite sports team.


Use the right tool then.



Mar 03, 2013 at 11:28 PM
chez
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p.15 #17 · Dynamic Range


ggreene wrote:
Use the right tool then.


Skipping record. Duh dot...duh dot....duh dot....



Mar 03, 2013 at 11:50 PM
mttran
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p.15 #18 · Dynamic Range


skibum5 wrote:
fill-in flash?

If that is what you bring up then maybe you should realize that you tend to shoot different sorts of things than some of the others posting here?


+1, i hate noiseeeeeeeeeeee....for sure it's a mess even in decent light and i know 5d3 is worser than these last time i have tried. Canon DR won't be any better until they resolve this mess. Is heathy data one of DR properties
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8527817200_71badc8f28_h.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8091/8493435693_9070d907a5_h.jpg



Mar 04, 2013 at 04:23 AM
Access
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p.15 #19 · Dynamic Range


In modern-day digital, useful DR is set by two things, shadow noise and highlight clipping.
Highlight clipping is pretty simple and basic, all the tools deal with it pretty much the same way, and there isn't really any way to recover from it. But the shadow noise side is totally different.

How far you can go into the shadows, how much detail, contrast, color etc. you can 'lift' out of the shadows depends heavily on how the image is processed. Starting from RAW of course, then the tools (primarily software) and the techniques that the photographer uses to push the darker areas of the image -- and once the noise starts to appear, how well she/he can hide it considering how the final image is going to be viewed.

Many photographers today are stuck in one or two ways of doing things, they might try their standard processing technique, ie. load it into lightroom, DPP, whatever; try to lift the shadows 2+ EV, think about how bad or awful the image looks, throw up hands, post on message board and whine, blame on camera.

For starters, a lot of photographers have never really taken the time to try most of the different raw converters out there on a problem image, as some deal with noise better than others. They are stuck on one or two because they like the interface, or the cost, or they don't know it matters, or are just stuck in their ways. Yet this most basic choice alone -- which tool you choose, and how well you use it, matters. And so does the next step, going from the developed raw to the final image -- most photographers use the same tools here, but knowing when noise matters (and when it doesn't), knowing the different techniques to hide or minimize noise in your processing makes a big difference.

My message probably sounds like a rant, but the next time shadow noise is a problem, if you are one of those people who posts and complains, who gives up, blames gear, or throws up your hands and moves on -- if the image is really important to you, take the time to deal with it as a photographer rather than just say 'this is ugly', throw up hands, complain on boards.

Also I do have an OM-D, I've processed from one of the better sony sensors and it's honestly not all golden there. They have their own inefficiencies, or problems; in real life often times designers, engineers, etc. are not so much dealing with outright 'better' or 'worse' but more creating advantages and disadvantages through tradeoffs or choices made in the design itself. If you have to ask which is better, the real answer is, we'll, they are both good, and both bad. How much you are 'in tune' with these things, how well you can deal with the 'bad' parts is what really makes a difference in the post-processing of an image.



Mar 04, 2013 at 12:02 PM
artd
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p.15 #20 · Dynamic Range


Access wrote:
For starters, a lot of photographers have never really taken the time to try most of the different raw converters out there on a problem image, as some deal with noise better than others. They are stuck on one or two because they like the interface, or the cost, or they don't know it matters, or are just stuck in their ways. Yet this most basic choice alone -- which tool you choose, and how well you use it, matters. And so does the next step, going from the developed raw to the final image -- most photographers use the
...Show more
A different raw converter is not really going to gain a lot. The issue is rooted in the hardware. The main improvement that Sony came up with in the Exmor sensor is in the analag-to-digital converter which mitigates fixed pattern noise. The technology is patented, and so that is why we still have FPN in Canon sensors.


My message probably sounds like a rant, but the next time shadow noise is a problem, if you are one of those people who posts and complains, who gives up, blames gear, or throws up your hands and moves on -- if the image is really important to you, take the time to deal with it as a photographer rather than just say 'this is ugly', throw up hands, complain on boards.

This thread was not started by someone complaining about shadow noise. Rather it started with the OP asking if the shortcomings in Canon's DR capabilities can make an actual differnce in real world applications. To which the answer has been demonstrated as yes.

Are there are ways to deal with or work around limited dynamic range and shadow noise? Yes. Are they as convenient as having that ability granted straight from the sensor? No. Is it complaining to point that out when people ask about it? Depends on your perspective I guess.


Also I do have an OM-D, I've processed from one of the better sony sensors and it's honestly not all golden there.

The OM-D does not use an Exmor sensor.



Mar 04, 2013 at 01:40 PM
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