carstenw wrote:
Where does this information come from anyway? Isn't it possible that it is just some intermediate phase of the firmware?
Do you mean the inability to scroll the zoomed live view image? It has been confirmed by M240 beta testers on the LUF board. They have stated the decision not to scroll zoomed-in live view was based on processor limitations and is not possible to address in firmware. One of the regulars with apparently direct connection to Leica stated/confirmed the M240's processor is a direct transplant from the S2, rather than a newer version of that processor family. Of course none of this is directly from Leica, so take it for what it is...
frezeiss wrote:
I don't know why on earth when someone criticize a valid matter then the person is called a troll or a hater??
Sure Leica is manual focus rangefinder but it would be nice if they implemented the new live view picture correctly. Not all of us intend to use the Leica in its traditional way (rangefinder). I for one intend to use it also as a landscape camera with live view so I'd like to see that live view is implemented correctly.
I have a few M lenses; ZM 25, 35 asph, 35 summarit and ZM 50 (and the ZM 18 later on). I really hope to find a good home for these excellent lenses. Meanwhile, the Fuji is keeping me at bay....Show more →
another "100% agree"
BTW how are your M lenses working with the Fuji?
The problem I see for Leica and the M240 is that within a fairly short period of its introduction it will find itself competing with mirrorless systems. The M8 essentially predates the mirrorless systems while the M9 had the advantage of being FF when all the mirrorless systems are APS-C or smaller. The M240 will not have that advantage, as Sony is known to be releasing a FF NEX in the none too distant future (first half of 2014 is the expected release date at this time).
Given this competition, it seems to me that the M240's potential market will be smaller than the M9's rather than larger. RF afficionado's and Leica brand loyalists will continue to prefer the M240, but those who chose the M9 due to its being the only compact FF option may find themselves looking at the competition now that it exists. And with LV being a major advantage for tripod based shooting, the M240's apparently very limited LV implementation will be a significant disadvantage when competing against a natively LV camera like the FF NEX, especially if the latter delivers a sensor with significant advantages. Picture a 36MP NEX-9 vs the 24MP M240, which is a fairly likely matchup.
And remember, Sony will have to address the edge performance issues if they want to have reasonably compact FF lenses on an FF NEX. They didn't on the NEX-VG900 for the simple reason that they expected the primary lens selection for that camera to be CP.2 and similar lenses derived from SLR designs, not RF lenses. The NEX-VG series has never been about compactness, unlike the stills NEX designs.
Personally, the M240 was never on my radar, too much money and not well enough suited to my tastes, I just don't like rangefinders enough to consider it. But I'd like it to be successful if only to drive Sony's design choices on the FF NEX, as I'd like the option of using RF wides on the FF NEX which most certainly is on my radar.
The last I heard was that there were still three possibilities with the NEX-FF: 1) it won't be released, 2) it will be released soon-ish, and the sensor is based on the VG-900, and 3) it will be released later, with a new sensor. Where have you heard that it is "known" that it will be released in 2014?
mawz wrote:
The problem I see for Leica and the M240 is that within a fairly short period of its introduction it will find itself competing with mirrorless systems. The M8 essentially predates the mirrorless systems while the M9 had the advantage of being FF when all the mirrorless systems are APS-C or smaller. The M240 will not have that advantage, as Sony is known to be releasing a FF NEX in the none too distant future (first half of 2014 is the expected release date at this time).
Given this competition, it seems to me that the M240's potential market will be smaller than the M9's rather than larger. RF afficionado's and Leica brand loyalists will continue to prefer the M240, but those who chose the M9 due to its being the only compact FF option may find themselves looking at the competition now that it exists. And with LV being a major advantage for tripod based shooting, the M240's apparently very limited LV implementation will be a significant disadvantage when competing against a natively LV camera like the FF NEX, especially if the latter delivers a sensor with significant advantages. Picture a 36MP NEX-9 vs the 24MP M240, which is a fairly likely matchup.
And remember, Sony will have to address the edge performance issues if they want to have reasonably compact FF lenses on an FF NEX. They didn't on the NEX-VG900 for the simple reason that they expected the primary lens selection for that camera to be CP.2 and similar lenses derived from SLR designs, not RF lenses. The NEX-VG series has never been about compactness, unlike the stills NEX designs.
Personally, the M240 was never on my radar, too much money and not well enough suited to my tastes, I just don't like rangefinders enough to consider it. But I'd like it to be successful if only to drive Sony's design choices on the FF NEX, as I'd like the option of using RF wides on the FF NEX which most certainly is on my radar....Show more →
+100, exactly my thinking with regard to timing and competition in the not so distant future. Fuji and even Ricoh are also wild cards in this space.
mawz wrote:
The problem I see for Leica and the M240 is that within a fairly short period of its introduction it will find itself competing with mirrorless systems. The M8 essentially predates the mirrorless systems while the M9 had the advantage of being FF when all the mirrorless systems are APS-C or smaller. The M240 will not have that advantage, as Sony is known to be releasing a FF NEX in the none too distant future (first half of 2014 is the expected release date at this time).
Given this competition, it seems to me that the M240's potential market will be smaller than the M9's rather than larger. RF afficionado's and Leica brand loyalists will continue to prefer the M240, but those who chose the M9 due to its being the only compact FF option may find themselves looking at the competition now that it exists. And with LV being a major advantage for tripod based shooting, the M240's apparently very limited LV implementation will be a significant disadvantage when competing against a natively LV camera like the FF NEX, especially if the latter delivers a sensor with significant advantages. Picture a 36MP NEX-9 vs the 24MP M240, which is a fairly likely matchup.
And remember, Sony will have to address the edge performance issues if they want to have reasonably compact FF lenses on an FF NEX. They didn't on the NEX-VG900 for the simple reason that they expected the primary lens selection for that camera to be CP.2 and similar lenses derived from SLR designs, not RF lenses. The NEX-VG series has never been about compactness, unlike the stills NEX designs.
Personally, the M240 was never on my radar, too much money and not well enough suited to my tastes, I just don't like rangefinders enough to consider it. But I'd like it to be successful if only to drive Sony's design choices on the FF NEX, as I'd like the option of using RF wides on the FF NEX which most certainly is on my radar....Show more →
Indeed, and thats why I find it not so strange they picked (apparently) a processor only capable of zooming in at the center to keep the costs down. Better this cheaper processor than saving money on the rangefinder system, we already lost the frame line selector.
They have a real special position on the market today having the only digital rangefinder, it would be suicide if the left that market for the mirrorless market.
Most current rangefinder users don't really care about scrolling all around, and will never use a macrolens. So why put the money there.
Best would be if they just made the camera 8000 dollar instead of 7000 but with the better sensor and the frameline selector.., but u can't have it all
I don't think there's anything Leica can do to compete with the Japanese brands, if/when they bring mirrorless FF cameras to the market. Even if the live view implementation of the M 240 was perfect, it'll likely still be 2x-3x more expensive than the Japanese versions, so I don't think Leica would be the popular choice, anyways. RF aficionados and wealthy/image conscious shooters will likely remain the bread and butter of Leica M, and I think that was all that Dan/Thrice was trying to get at.
Everyone ragged on me last year when I compared Leica to Rolex, but I still think it holds true. Rolex tried to compete with Japan in the 70s by introducing quartz watches, and that didn't go over too well, either. People tend to buy Rolexes because they're either interested in in-house mechanical watch movements and history, or they like wearing status symbols.
The real threat to Leica's tiny market share would be a Zeiss Ikon digital, I'd imagine.
rscheffler wrote:
One of the regulars with apparently direct connection to Leica stated/confirmed the M240's processor is a direct transplant from the S2, rather than a newer version of that processor family.
This sounds quite reasonable to me as a scenario.
It wouldn't be the cost of a new CPU chip alone that nixes having a new custom processor produced, but also the additional software development costs for a new CPU and maybe even the time frames needed to do all the work suggested to Leica they couldn't have it all in this model. Prepare for a M-250 down the road?
If the CPU really is Leica specific, they must have to go slow with the adoption of new CPUs and the firmware that must go along with it, as it'll take awhile to amortize the costs of each new generation given their relatively low unit volumes.
douglasf13 wrote:
The real threat to Leica's tiny market share would be a Zeiss Ikon digital, I'd imagine.
I used to hope for this (not a threat to Leica's market share, just a competitive digital rangefinder from Zeiss/Ikon/Cosina). Or that Ricoh would come out with a full frame M-mount camera or a module for a yet to be updated GXR system.
But no longer... I'm of the current opinion that no one other than Leica will ever again make a 24x35mm sensor digital camera tuned specifically for M mount lenses from wide to long. Any compatibility that does exist on various other brands bodies will be entirely by accident such as the different levels of ability symmetrical wides find on the NEX-5/6 vs the NEX-7.
michaelwatkins wrote:
I'm of the current opinion that no one other than Leica will ever again make a 24x35mm sensor digital camera tuned specifically for M mount lenses from wide to long. Any compatibility that does exist on various other brands bodies will be entirely by accident such as the different levels of ability symmetrical wides find on the NEX-5/6 vs the NEX-7.
Really. I think the sensor issue is a temporary one which will likely be overcome sooner than later...and probably by Sony since this is where their future would seem to be (as well as some of their sensor customers which will need such sensors for more compact, mirrorless future systems). I think we will know within the next two years if this is the case.
carstenw wrote:
The last I heard was that there were still three possibilities with the NEX-FF: 1) it won't be released, 2) it will be released soon-ish, and the sensor is based on the VG-900, and 3) it will be released later, with a new sensor. Where have you heard that it is "known" that it will be released in 2014?
Sony Alpha Rumors has been collecting rumours pretty steadily and all point to either a late 2013 or early 2014 announcement with availability a few months later. No rumour I've seen in months has indicated an announcement prior to the end of 2013 or any indication that it will be the NEX-VG900 sensor (far more likely is either the A99 sensor or a variant of the D800 sensor).
The next set of NEX and Alpha announcements is already known, the NEX-3N and A58 shortly, with an A38 following, the next set of lenses are all Alpha's, updated 70-400, new Zeiss 50/1.4 and a refreshed 18-55, of course we're still waiting on the most recent NEX lenses, announced last month. Summer should see the next set of lens announcements (85/1.8 + the new zooms) and possibly refreshes of the NEX-7, A77 and A65 (I suspect the A65 will be discontinued without replacement, as the A58 and A77 eliminate the need for the A65), those may be fall announcements as well.
douglasf13 wrote:
I don't think there's anything Leica can do to compete with the Japanese brands, if/when they bring mirrorless FF cameras to the market. Even if the live view implementation of the M 240 was perfect, it'll likely still be 2x-3x more expensive than the Japanese versions, so I don't think Leica would be the popular choice, anyways. RF aficionados and wealthy/image conscious shooters will likely remain the bread and butter of Leica M, and I think that was all that Dan/Thrice was trying to get at.
I don't expect them to compete on price. They can't and shouldn't try. Ditto features. But the features they do add should be fully implemented rather than crippled. I think they should just have skipped video entirely and done LV right. It's the half-assed LV implementation that worries me, as it gives a clear idea that Leica can't or won't do things right and damages their reputation for quality.
Leica can win in this space if they implement a simple set of features seamlessly. Many people shooting Mirrorless, including myself, never tap into the wide range of features offered by their cameras. But those features I do use, and zoom is very high among them, must work correctly.
mawz wrote:
I don't expect them to compete on price. They can't and shouldn't try. Ditto features. But the features they do add should be fully implemented rather than crippled. I think they should just have skipped video entirely and done LV right. It's the half-assed LV implementation that worries me, as it gives a clear idea that Leica can't or won't do things right and damages their reputation for quality.
Leica can win in this space if they implement a simple set of features seamlessly. Many people shooting Mirrorless, including myself, never tap into the wide range of features offered by their cameras. But those features I do use, and zoom is very high among them, must work correctly. ...Show more →
I think they are already winning in their space, digital rangefinders, no? To be honest, I'd probably use the video option more than live view focusing, simply because I always have my M9 on me, and I wouldn't mind having a relatively high quality video option with me for quick family videos and whatnot. Either way, it's not really necessary for me.
p.s. isn't the sensor in the VG-900 and A99 the same, more or less?
douglasf13 wrote:
I think they are already winning in their space, digital rangefinders, no? To be honest, I'd probably use the video option more than live view focusing, simply because I always have my M9 on me, and I wouldn't mind having a relatively high quality video option with me for quick family videos and whatnot. Either way, it's not really necessary for me.
p.s. isn't the sensor in the VG-900 and A99 the same, more or less?
They are with the M9, but their space is compact FF bodies, not digital RF's. I don't consider the rangefinderness to be a sufficient differentiator from FF mirrorless to warrant considering it something separate. I also doubt the video quality will be anything to write home about. Think first-generation Nikon or Pentax video. I'd expect to use LV focusing far more since I regularly use the rear LCD on my NEX-7 despite having (and generally preferring) the EVF.
And yes, the VG900 sensor is derived from the A99 sensor. But I expect a 24MP NEX-9 to have the A99 revision of the sensor (or a derivation) rather than the VG900's video optimizations. They aren't identical merely closely related.
rscheffler wrote:
One of the regulars with apparently direct connection to Leica stated/confirmed the M240's processor is a direct transplant from the S2, rather than a newer version of that processor family.
michaelwatkins wrote:
This sounds quite reasonable to me as a scenario.
It wouldn't be the cost of a new CPU chip alone that nixes having a new custom processor produced, but also the additional software development costs for a new CPU and maybe even the time frames needed to do all the work suggested to Leica they couldn't have it all in this model. Prepare for a M-250 down the road?
That is also what I was wondering - software development costs. This would be logical if not much else changed in the system, and is basically what happened with the M8-M9 transition. While the sensor was 'new,' it was from the same product family and might have been pretty much plug & play. But with the M240 there is so much changing that there is already bound to be substantial software development costs involved. The question then is: why not spend that 'little' bit more developing around a newer CPU? But perhaps that 'little bit more' was actually considerably beyond the budget....
If the CPU really is Leica specific, they must have to go slow with the adoption of new CPUs and the firmware that must go along with it, as it'll take awhile to amortize the costs of each new generation given their relatively low unit volumes.
The CPU is from Fujitsu. Their name for it is Milbeaut. The current version listed on their site costs about $30. According to the press releases when the Fujitsu-Leica partnership was revealed with the S2 announcement, it seems there could be some customization to Leica's specifications, so it might not be as simple as just using the stock configuration off the shelf.
douglasf13 wrote:
I don't think there's anything Leica can do to compete with the Japanese brands, if/when they bring mirrorless FF cameras to the market. Even if the live view implementation of the M 240 was perfect, it'll likely still be 2x-3x more expensive than the Japanese versions, so I don't think Leica would be the popular choice, anyways. RF aficionados and wealthy/image conscious shooters will likely remain the bread and butter of Leica M, and I think that was all that Dan/Thrice was trying to get at.
mawz wrote:
I don't expect them to compete on price. They can't and shouldn't try. Ditto features. But the features they do add should be fully implemented rather than crippled. I think they should just have skipped video entirely and done LV right. It's the half-assed LV implementation that worries me, as it gives a clear idea that Leica can't or won't do things right and damages their reputation for quality.
I don't know, mawz, I've not seen anything indicating a difference in the A99 and VG-900 sensor. Dpreview's announcement implies that they share the same sensor.
Judging by Daniel's (who works for Leica) comments, I think that Leica very much considers digital RFs a space, or maybe luxury digital cameras, and they don't have any intention of trying to compete in electronics with the Japanese companies. Leica has no chance of competing with Sony on a FF mirrorless, in terms of both features and price.
The video feature of the new M surely isn't fantastic, but likely better than my cell phone, which is all I'd need, but not really what I expect from a rangefinder. Just a bonus.
naturephoto1 wrote:
I am sorry, but Leica did not really do such a good job of checking their customer base. For example, Leica USA knows me quite well as well as my needs. They have used my work and they never contacted me or any of the photographers that I know regarding my/our needs. They knew that I had been using the Leica R system for over 25 years. I have had many conversations with Justin Stailey of Leica USA since the discontinuing of the R system. In addition, Leica never had any conversation with my friend Jim Lager who had been a Leica employee long ago and is quite well known for his 8 books on Leica cameras.
Rich, I feel sorry for Leica for not getting valuable feedback from dedicated users like you. And I agree with many others, Leica's marketing is somewhat not really focused, they are trying so hard to "brand" themselves as a "premium" camera company and the more they do that, the more they seem alienate a lot of the existing Leica user base, myself included.
Also agree with what many others have mentioned, if Leica was intent to provide us with live view and video, then they should get proper input from photographers and cinematographers who shoot live view and video and make those functions useable to those that want and know how to use it.
Apologies as I do not really know the intricacies of going the Leitax route, but would it be a better solution for current R users to convert their lenses and use it on a platform such as the Nikon D800E rather than rely on Leica for a half baked solution?
douglasf13 wrote:
The real threat to Leica's tiny market share would be a Zeiss Ikon digital, I'd imagine.
I hope for another company to give us a digital rangefinder and just maybe with Zeiss's existing relationship with Sony, a FF solution from Sony for ZM lenses might be viable? Leica seriously needs some competition. Monopoly is never good for consumers and Leica knows it.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Really. I think the sensor issue is a temporary one which will likely be overcome sooner than later...and probably by Sony since this is where their future would seem to be (as well as some of their sensor customers which will need such sensors for more compact, mirrorless future systems). I think we will know within the next two years if this is the case.
It certainly is in Sony's interest to produce sensor developments which make it easier to make more compact cameras, both for their own cameras and for others. Maybe that'll happen sooner than later as you suggest.
I get to weasel out of my opinion in the future if wrong because I did say "no one other than Leica will ever again make a ... digital camera tuned specifically for M mount lenses". Once upon a time I thought Ricoh could be a contender for this... but Ricoh I am currently guessing has decided to terminate all its GXR development and will be focussed on Pentax delivering whatever its *next big thing* is. Pink cameras maybe.
Besides weasel words, what I'm thinking is that we'll see a full frame compact interchangeable lens camera system come from someone, most likely Sony first, but with a new line up of full frame image circle lenses.
Thinking about Fujiflm's X camera lenses with relatively large exit pupils, and the Sony RX1 again with a very large rear lens element to avoid a high incidence angle from lens to sensor, maybe this strategy will find its way into Sony or Maker X's new line of FF ILC cameras. If so the sensor package won't be ideally configured for many RF lenses, or so goes my guess. At best, in this lens-design-driven scenario, any compatibility will be accidental as it is now with NEX and Fujifilm X cameras.
The Sony RX1 is very small. They could make it deeper and wider without making an ungainly camera. What's a few more mm between friends to accommodate a lens mount?
Joe, Rich has a ton of R lenses, and he still shoots film, so switching to Leitax mounts apparently isn't an option. You can adapt to Canon, though, pretty easily.
I agree that a Zeiss/Sony digital rangefinder would shake things up. That's what I'd like to see, personally.
rscheffler wrote:
The CPU is from Fujitsu. Their name for it is Milbeaut. The current version listed on their site costs about $30. According to the press releases when the Fujitsu-Leica partnership was revealed with the S2 announcement, it seems there could be some customization to Leica's specifications, so it might not be as simple as just using the stock configuration off the shelf.
Ok, that makes sense (using a regular line component from an established image processing specialist). At the very least from generation to generation the programming interface would probably be kept fairly consistent because to do otherwise would discourage adoption of new CPUs. Whatever cost (dollars or time) that prevented adoption of a newer generation CPU by Leica must have been in Leica's own domain. Surely its not a simple matter of having a big stock of old CPU's sitting on a shelf.
Leica seriously needs some competition. Monopoly is never good for consumers and Leica knows it.