fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              6       7       8       end
  

Archive 2013 · New M240 Delayed

  
 
mortyb
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #1 · New M240 Delayed


Because I'm considering it, but the LV issue is a serious drawback for my intened use.

BTW - thanks for proving my point.



Feb 17, 2013 at 07:32 AM
Mitch Alland
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #2 · New M240 Delayed


With all the emotion and gnashing of teeth, this thread is very confusing on the type of Live View provided in the M240. As far as I understand it, the M240 does have a normal, realtime Live View, but magnification, presumably for facilitating focus (and focus-peaking?) is possible only on the central area? If the foregoing is correct, what is wrong with using the central magnification for focus and recompose? That would not be the end of the world would it?

—Mitch/Paris
Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book projec

Edited on Feb 17, 2013 at 08:06 AM · View previous versions



Feb 17, 2013 at 07:51 AM
edwardkaraa
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #3 · New M240 Delayed


Well, provided that Leica fixes this small glitch, and magnified view becomes scrollable in the M 240, I will be very interested to see how many of the loud voices will actually buy the camera.


Feb 17, 2013 at 08:02 AM
Bijltje
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #4 · New M240 Delayed


edwardkaraa wrote:
Well, provided that Leica fixes this small glitch, and magnified view becomes scrollable in the M 240, I will be very interested to see how many of the loud voices will actually buy the camera.


Actually I think quite a small part of them. Also on websites like leica rumors most of the M8/ M9 bashers didn't even use one themselfs.

Also, totally agree on your previous post. Really don't get why so many expect the M to be some sort off all including camera and think the M is rubbish because it isn't. Wonder how they feel about a Morgan or Lamborghini or any "sport car" builder.

I think it really is time for the full frame sony NEX.



Feb 17, 2013 at 09:04 AM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #5 · New M240 Delayed


thrice wrote:
You would be surprised how few Leica buyers care about features beyond the basics. You would probably not be surprised by how few are talented photographers.

There are some great and talented Leica photographers out there, no surprise most of them don't care too much about added features either.

My impression from customers and dealers is that people are most concerned about what they might LOSE at the expense of new features rather than what they might gain.

I would like to hear your guestimate of catastrophic, do you not think the camera would sell?

I think we're all forgetting this is a MANUAL
...Show more

Well, I don't consider myself a "hater" at all. As soon as those who offer constructive criticism - as well as are potential customers who simply want to see a product be the best it can be - are called haters by those associated with a company, perhaps it's time for said company to be a little introspective instead of taking an arrogant, defensive position. Leica (Dr Kaufman) has stated where Leica see things going with regard to the use of cmos, live view and video in the M series at the m240 introduction last year so they really did set themselves up for a certain expectation as to capabilities with this camera.

For myself, I can't stand using an EVF and really enjoy using a window finder camera. I also require the many benefits of a TTL viewing system from time to time for work more traditionally shot with a larger, FF SLR. I viewed the Leica M240 as possibly having the capability of both systems (compact mirrorless and larger FF SLR), offering some of the versatility of an NEX but with FF, a very nice window finder and very good build quality. At it's price point, I could just rationalize buying one if it took the place of two separate camera systems.

"Catastrophic" was strong but Leica has the opportunity to expand their market to a large group who would not have considered them a viable option in the past. If Leica does not service that market, others will, and it could very well be that when they do, it will have a very negative impact on Leica camera sales. At the moment, Leica's timing is perfect (Ok, maybe a year late). "Catastrophic" would probably just mean that Leica eventually gets out of the camera business and concentrates on making lenses.



Feb 17, 2013 at 09:24 AM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #6 · New M240 Delayed


douglasf13 wrote:
I don't know. While I have no problem with the live view features, I still think much of the appeal of M is the rangefinder method of working, and, as long as Leica is the only digital rangefinder in town, success will be there. Either way, if they're going to do live view, I do think that they should do it well.

p.s. I'm embarrassed to admit that I also have a 9th gen Carrera Targa. Definitely a fun drive. I run my business from home, and I don't put a lot of miles on cars, so it isn't all
...Show more

Yeah, that's my only point really. If Leica includes LV, they should do it right.

OT "family oriented"...believe me, I hear you. My VW was such a compromise since I can get the whole family in there at the moment(including two kids in the back and all our stuff) yet it's still relatively fun to drive and gets 40+MPG on long trips. I may trade it in for the VW Touareg (basically the Porsche Cayenne in different sheet metal but with Diesel option) as the kids grow. BTW, you can just get a child's booster seat in the rear of the Carrera as long as a midget is the one sitting in front of them! Ask me how I know.



Feb 17, 2013 at 09:37 AM
frezeiss
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #7 · New M240 Delayed


I don't know why on earth when someone criticize a valid matter then the person is called a troll or a hater??

Sure Leica is manual focus rangefinder but it would be nice if they implemented the new live view picture correctly. Not all of us intend to use the Leica in its traditional way (rangefinder). I for one intend to use it also as a landscape camera with live view so I'd like to see that live view is implemented correctly.

I have a few M lenses; ZM 25, 35 asph, 35 summarit and ZM 50 (and the ZM 18 later on). I really hope to find a good home for these excellent lenses. Meanwhile, the Fuji is keeping me at bay.



Feb 17, 2013 at 09:40 AM
naturephoto1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #8 · New M240 Delayed


thrice wrote:
I would have thought the fundamental change in sensor technology, screen size, framelines and buffer size were the biggest changes for their major user-base. It might surprise you that the live-view mirrorless market is a very small part of the Leica world. Those looking to mount R lenses are a slightly larger but still much smaller part of the market, most Leica users are either well heeled status-seekers or rangefinder aficionados looking for a better buffer and better high ISO than the M9 they already love.

Leica do a lot of research with their core customer base, I guess none of
...Show more

I am sorry, but Leica did not really do such a good job of checking their customer base. For example, Leica USA knows me quite well as well as my needs. They have used my work and they never contacted me or any of the photographers that I know regarding my/our needs. They knew that I had been using the Leica R system for over 25 years. I have had many conversations with Justin Stailey of Leica USA since the discontinuing of the R system. In addition, Leica never had any conversation with my friend Jim Lager who had been a Leica employee long ago and is quite well known for his 8 books on Leica cameras.

Rich



Feb 17, 2013 at 09:42 AM
edwardkaraa
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #9 · New M240 Delayed


Bijltje wrote:
Actually I think quite a small part of them. Also on websites like leica rumors most of the M8/ M9 bashers didn't even use one themselfs.

Also, totally agree on your previous post. Really don't get why so many expect the M to be some sort off all including camera and think the M is rubbish because it isn't. Wonder how they feel about a Morgan or Lamborghini or any "sport car" builder.

I think it really is time for the full frame sony NEX.


Thank you Robert! Finally a voice of reason.

To be honest, this scrollable magnified view is nice to have, but considering all the amazing stuff that the M is improving on the M9, I really regard it as a very minor issue and not worth all this fuss. It is definitely blown out of proportions.



Feb 17, 2013 at 09:57 AM
naturephoto1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #10 · New M240 Delayed


edwardkaraa wrote:
Thank you Robert! Finally a voice of reason.

To be honest, this scrollable magnified view is nice to have, but considering all the amazing stuff that the M is improving on the M9, I really regard it as a very minor issue and not worth all this fuss. It is definitely blown out of proportions.


Edward,

I respectfully disagree. Leica was and I believe as an after thought trying to get all of the orphaned R users a digital platform for their lenses. Those of us with substantial investments in this discontinued system have a dire need for the ability to move the magnified area for much of our application. Consider that we were orphaned now almost 4 years ago with no digital platform to use our lenses from the manufacturer.

Rich


Edited on Feb 17, 2013 at 10:03 AM · View previous versions



Feb 17, 2013 at 10:01 AM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #11 · New M240 Delayed


Mitch Alland wrote:
If the foregoing is correct, what is wrong with using the central magnification for focus and recompose? That would not be the end of the world would it?

�Mitch/Paris
Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book projec


For the type of work one might typically use LV for, it would be a MAJOR pain in the ass to change composition by moving the camera around four or five times for just ONE shot. Not only would it be time consuming and cumbersome, but the opportunity for screwing something up (particularly focus) would increase dramatically.



Feb 17, 2013 at 10:03 AM
edwardkaraa
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #12 · New M240 Delayed


naturephoto1 wrote:
I am sorry, but Leica did not really do such a good job of checking their customer base. For example, Leica USA knows me quite well as well as my needs. They have used my work and they never contacted me or any of the photographers that I know regarding my/our needs. They knew that I had been using the Leica R system for over 25 years. I have had many conversations with Justin Stailey of Leica USA since the discontinuing of the R system. In addition, Leica never had any conversation with my friend Jim Lager who had been
...Show more

Rich, I certainly understand your position, and I would be upset if I was in your shoes. But in fact, I was in your shoes 10 years ago, when Kyocera decided to go out of photography business. They didn't take their customers feelings in consideration neither. Also when Canon decided to discontinue the FD mount, it wasn't the most popular decision neither. Just saying.



Feb 17, 2013 at 10:03 AM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #13 · New M240 Delayed


edwardkaraa wrote:
Rich, I certainly understand your position, and I would be upset if I was in your shoes. But in fact, I was in your shoes 10 years ago, when Kyocera decided to go out of photography business. They didn't take their customers feelings in consideration neither. Also when Canon decided to discontinue the FD mount, it wasn't the most popular decision neither. Just saying.


Edward, I'm just curious what the jest of "just saying" means in the context above. Because others have screwed their customers, it justifies Leica doing so? That doesn't make much sense.



Feb 17, 2013 at 10:12 AM
naturephoto1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #14 · New M240 Delayed


edwardkaraa wrote:
Rich, I certainly understand your position, and I would be upset if I was in your shoes. But in fact, I was in your shoes 10 years ago, when Kyocera decided to go out of photography business. They didn't take their customers feelings in consideration neither. Also when Canon decided to discontinue the FD mount, it wasn't the most popular decision neither. Just saying.


Edward,

But in the case of Kyocera as you mention and are aware, they exited the photo business. In Canon's case I used the FD system before going to the Leica R system, they offered an adapter system to use the FD lenses on the EOS system. It was not the best way of using the lenses, but it would work.

In the case of Leica, they never exited the photo market. They discontinued the R system which had a history of approximately 40 years and introduced the S2 camera and system. That was an entirely new market for them. At the time they had hopes of offering a smaller camera that would accept the R lenses and would be based upon the S technology. It is unfortunate that they had not offered the smaller system that they already had a ready audience and then offer the S system later. Leica waited too long and decided that they could not support 2 such systems and the smaller camera system was never offered.

Now, Leica has offered their rangefinder M240 as the platform to use the R lenses.

Rich



Feb 17, 2013 at 10:12 AM
jotdeh
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #15 · New M240 Delayed


thrice wrote:
It might surprise you that the live-view mirrorless market is a very small part of the Leica world.

I remember Leica people complain about lenses being out of stock because a lot of them are being bought for mirrorless use.

thrice wrote:
I'm sorry that they didn't tailor the features in such a way that they suit everyone, but there is no silver bullet camera.

+1 Tariq Gibran wrote:
If Leica includes LV, they should do it right.



+1 mortyb wrote:
This is pretty hilarious.

IMO the only thing to be shocked about, is the presumably lack of LV outside center - and those that try to defend such a ridiculous desicion. That is what's crazy - nothing else. There's simply NO good argument for such a braindead desicion.

When you read this thread, it's no wonder Leica owners sometimes feel a certain hostility from others.

IMO.


I really can't believe people would defend such a crippled LV implementation. Like it was said, this is Leica's flagship 135 format digital. Unless they are already planning it for the next product cycle to be released in 2019. Gotta keep innovating.



Feb 17, 2013 at 10:35 AM
michaelwatkins
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #16 · New M240 Delayed


thrice wrote:
You would be surprised how few Leica buyers care about features beyond the basics. You would probably not be surprised by how few are talented photographers.


If Leica depended only on talented photographers to drive its business, it, like every other camera company, would surely go out of business.

If the rumour about the limitation is true it would seem more likely to be as a result of a technology failure rather than the whims of some focus group. Who in the world would argue against including a good live view implementation if the underlying technology in the camera supports it? Did the focus group facilitator forget to mention to the dearly beloved focus group that they simply don't have to activate the feature and, voila, instant M9 mode?

Remember, this camera was to support an optional EVF. If the underlying tech can't handle live view, then how in the world is it going to handle a responsive EVF? Again to the focus group: You don't have to buy the EVF! Problem solved.

Talent or not, a good live-view implementation and a good EVF would make this Leica digital M the very first I would consider buying. Having live-view and an EVF makes the camera just that more useful; for me, maybe it could then be my only camera.

There is no dichotomy in a rangefinder camera fan also wanting live-view and/or EVF capabilities for their primary camera system, particularly when neither feature gets in the way of rangefinder use. Why cripple this camera unnecessarily? In the past, there was no option due to the CCD sensor. Times and technology have changed.

To me the story smells bogus, or if true, there are processing and/or other technology limitations getting in the way of successfully delivering the feature.



Feb 17, 2013 at 01:28 PM
sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #17 · New M240 Delayed


michaelwatkins wrote:
If Leica depended only on talented photographers to drive its business, it, like every other camera company, would surely go out of business.

If the rumour about the limitation is true it would seem more likely to be as a result of a technology failure rather than the whims of some focus group. Who in the world would argue against including a good live view implementation if the underlying technology in the camera supports it? Did the focus group facilitator forget to mention to the dearly beloved focus group that they simply don't have to activate the feature and, voila, instant
...Show more

agreed with everything you said. my initial strong response to this was because it sounded to ludicrous to be true.



Feb 17, 2013 at 01:35 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #18 · New M240 Delayed


Where does this information come from anyway? Isn't it possible that it is just some intermediate phase of the firmware?


Feb 17, 2013 at 02:01 PM
jotdeh
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #19 · New M240 Delayed


I agree the focus group story isn't that credible


Feb 17, 2013 at 02:08 PM
rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #20 · New M240 Delayed


Rich, IMO, the answer for why a true R solution didn't arrive as a subset to the S system is pretty clear: lack of money. Michael Reichmann did a video interview with Stefan Daniel in 2009, in which Daniel stated limited resources as the reason behind the decision to retain the M8's components for the M9 and continue outsourcing to Jenoptik, rather than revamp the entire camera from scratch in-house as they did with the S2. The impression is pretty clear that there is no way they could have taken on a third major interchangeable lens project (though they did manage to also develop the X1...).

My opinion is also that a more traditional R-centric digital solution would have had Leica competing in the normal DSLR market. There is no way, other than loyal R users such as yourself, Leica could effectively attract users in this arena, especially when many non-traditional R lens owners were Leitaxing those lenses for use on Canikon cameras alongside their existing Canikon lens inventory. For Leica to survive, they unfortunately had to cut the 'mainstream' R and focus on the M and S niche, the latter of which was considered to be a significant gamble.

As an aside, I was also affected by Canon's FD to EF transition, but elected to stay with Canon because I felt their AF solution with in-lens focus and USM motors was superior to the offerings from Minolta and Nikon. Leica was never on my radar at that time, primarily because of cost, and back then, being quite young, sticking with the technological cutting edge seemed to be an important aspect of my considerations. This last point is something I think works against Leica in the eyes of many new or young photographers making decisions based on spec sheets. But then, you can never be everything to everyone.

I still believe Leica cannot afford to compete in the mainstream. They need to develop unique products that will attract a small percentage of mainstream users to the M or S systems. It's also essential to how they have cultivated their brand identity, as much as many here dislike it. The M9 succeeded in part because it was the first and only small FF solution. It satisfied enough existing M system users, but also attracted some from the outside, like me. The M240 will continue this trend because it's the first and so far only small FF solution to offer a viable way to adapt many different system lenses to it, likely with minimal image quality compromises. But this also means the traditional Leica user group will become less of a majority. Perhaps an analog to this is the effect immigration has in many countries on native populations? Leica is fortunate the M system is well positioned in the premium market to take advantage of the steady transition away from DSLR systems, where thus far most of the MILC solutions have been aimed at the general consumer.

For the M240 itself and my needs, I think it will work. It addresses the major shortcomings of the M9. The live view implementation will be usable, especially for quick focus checks while handheld, which is primarily how I use the M9 (consider I have survived with the GXR's less than ideal EVF solution). My disappointment is primarily as someone who is also a gear enthusiast on top of trying to be a good photographer. Leica, in my eyes, stops one step short of the M240's full potential by apparently recycling the S2's 2008 era processor. There will certainly be an answer for this from Leica, that is logical to them. But from the outside, it appears to me as a decision detrimental to their considerable efforts at developing a completely refreshed, modern, camera. Will this make the M240 unusable? No. It makes it less ideal in the same way, for me, the choices Leica made for the M9 make it less ideal than its potential, though still usable and technically capable of producing high quality images. IMO, the greater concern is/was whether the CMOSIS sensor will deliver the goods. So far it appears to, assuming the banding issues can be satisfactorily resolved.



Feb 17, 2013 at 02:53 PM
1       2       3       4              6       7       8       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              6       7       8       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account