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Archive 2013 · Birders vs Photographers

  
 
uz2work
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p.9 #1 · Birders vs Photographers


Herb Houghton wrote:
If there is an arse here, he sure seems to keep showing his arse end face here. As far as shining, your extreme jealousy of any southerners acquiring owl shots in your northern areas is shining brightly and I assure you that there are plenty more photogs in the near future that will photograph them and they will post pictures here just as I did. If you did actually care so much and If you had a real legitimate beef with this situation, why wouldn't you attack and confront your " home boys " that are actually
...Show more

Wow! Let me get this straight. You have the right take your camera and your lens on your trip and to do whatever you want to do to get the pictures on your bucket list. Then, you post those pictures on a public forum and welcome the "great shot" comments from those who fear that, if they don't offer those comments, they will not get similar "great shot" comments on their posted photos, but someone who disagrees with your approach to getting those shots doesn't have the right to express his opinion on that same public forum. Yes. Wow! Just wow!

While I suspect that your feelings have been bruised by seeing that everyone does think positively of your approach, I'd suggest trying to step back emotionally and trying to imagine how this comes across to those without the same emotional attachment.

Even though I know that there are those who don't agree, I feel that this thread contains lots of things that are worth thinking about, but when it degenerates into personal attacks, not only do those attacks do nothing to enhance the value of the discussion, but they also do nothing to further the case of those who make the attacks or to enhance the level of respect that others have for those making the attacks.




Feb 08, 2013 at 11:53 PM
ashley138
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p.9 #2 · Birders vs Photographers


KF wrote:
Your opinion please:
is THIS acceptable or not?



Don't shoot me for trying to make you smile!


What an awesome video!!! Everyone should check this out! It made me smile.



Feb 09, 2013 at 01:06 AM
Bliz
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p.9 #3 · Birders vs Photographers


It kills me to hear "so and so has a great rapport with the owls". As was described by one photogs visit to the Grays and their baiters.

Baited photos have no place on the Nature and Wildlife forum, its not natural behavior and it's certainly not life behaving wildly. As photographers who's interaction is already a disruption to the environment of the bird (however small) the main focus should be to become a piece of the surrounding landscape. Observe, capture and remain out of the way. Not become the focal point. Owls are wild and pattern-able, they are there because there are Voles, watch them in their perch, watch their eyes as they dont lie and will tell you where they are going to try for a meal beneath the snows surface. Of course that could mean waiting for a perched bird to move for hours on end. Obviously beyond the grasp of those in the !action now! mind state.

A lot of the responses here seem typical of the "whatever it takes to get the shot" crowd. When you begin to measure your success on whether or not it was "worth the trip" or "worth the hike" you have missed out entirely on the opportunity to make yourself better and more thoroughly understand the natural world around you. Which in my opinion leads to a lot more incredible photography then what we are seeing lately and apparently a lot more often then I thought around here. Unfortunately it sounds like whoever shows up in Ontario is going to be met with individuals already there with bait, these individuals are clowns, I didnt hear about it with the Snowys in the NW and you didnt see it here in Southcentral Alaska when the Grays came last year. Hopefully they've filled their hard drives and some real hunting images will surface.






Feb 09, 2013 at 01:14 AM
Larry Williams
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p.9 #4 · Birders vs Photographers


This thread is getting so ridiculous with the end result being the same as it has so many times before.

"Bird Photographers" are "Birders" with cameras in hand rather than binoculars. Each can be intrusive. Each can be opinionated. Each are correct in their opinions, and each are wrong in their opinions. Life is gray, not black and white, as is the original question.

Birds are baited 365 days a year in Central Park, New York City, oh my!

Has this Bald Eagle been baited at LD 14? Or, has it not been baited?

What's your take?

Larry




"Baited or Not Baited", that's the question........




Feb 09, 2013 at 07:14 AM
burtcg
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p.9 #5 · Birders vs Photographers


Larry Williams wrote:
This thread is getting so ridiculous with the end result being the same as it has so many times before.

"Bird Photographers" are "Birders" with cameras in hand rather than binoculars. Each can be intrusive. Each can be opinionated. Each are correct in their opinions, and each are wrong in their opinions. Life is gray, not black and white, as is the original question.

Birds are baited 365 days a year in Central Park, New York City, oh my!

Has this Bald Eagle been baited at LD 14? Or, has it not been baited?

What's your take?

Larry


That a boy!!!! LW u know how to cut to the chase......



Feb 09, 2013 at 07:32 AM
acjd
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p.9 #6 · Birders vs Photographers


Larry Williams wrote:
...

Has this Bald Eagle been baited at LD 14? Or, has it not been baited?

What's your take?

Larry


One person put up a Fallacy of Diversion, this is a red herring irrelevant to the discussion.

In other words, it doesn't matter what is at the end of the journey but how you got there. This just diverts the underlying and fundamental debate.




Feb 09, 2013 at 07:37 AM
burtcg
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p.9 #7 · Birders vs Photographers


BTW: LW....easy to see why U R reining Mayor of LD14' with such insite


Feb 09, 2013 at 07:42 AM
burtcg
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p.9 #8 · Birders vs Photographers


acjd wrote:
One person put up a Fallacy of Diversion, this is a red herring irrelevant to the discussion.

In other words, it doesn't matter what is at the end of the journey but how you got there. This just diverts the underlying and fundamental debate.



Sorry, but bottom line is......the debate is pointless...



Feb 09, 2013 at 07:45 AM
Larry Williams
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p.9 #9 · Birders vs Photographers


acjd wrote:
One person put up a Fallacy of Diversion, this is a red herring irrelevant to the discussion.

In other words, it doesn't matter what is at the end of the journey but how you got there. This just diverts the underlying and fundamental debate.



Ah, I see that you have an opinion, good for you.

See or not to see, that is the question.............

Diversion? Not, and that's my opinion.

What is your take on the photo? Isn't that part of the question at hand?



Feb 09, 2013 at 07:55 AM
Ted ellis
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p.9 #10 · Birders vs Photographers


Larry Williams wrote:
Ah, I see that you have an opinion, good for you.

See or not to see, that is the question.............

Diversion? Not, and that's my opinion.

What is your take on the photo? Isn't that part of the question at hand?



Larry:

That is a bald eagle. That is a fish. I have a 50% chance of getting your question right. So I say no.

I used to think birders and photographers were different creatures. I know there are birders that are photographers, so that is a horse of a different color.

It is unfortunate the tone of this thread turned sour. I think I need to watch more TV and escape the reality of such a polarizing issue.

Ted



Feb 09, 2013 at 08:21 AM
Larry Williams
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p.9 #11 · Birders vs Photographers


Ted ellis wrote:
Larry:

That is a bald eagle. That is a fish. I have a 50% chance of getting your question right. So I say no.

I used to think birders and photographers were different creatures. I know there are birders that are photographers, so that is a horse of a different color.

It is unfortunate the tone of this thread turned sour. I think I need to watch more TV and escape the reality of such a polarizing issue.

Ted


Totally agree with you Ted. Thank you for your comments, much appreciated.



Feb 09, 2013 at 09:07 AM
thedutt
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p.9 #12 · Birders vs Photographers


By and large both are good for birds. I doubt anyone with ill intention will keep doing bird photography and not get educated, the ecosystem of operation prohibits that behavior en mass. Every time you share a bird photo, you grow awareness. Being new myself, when my 4 year old spotted a osprey nest on his own while driving in GTNP, made me mighty proud. The whole reason I am beginning to be a "birder" is because I decided to photograph backyard cormies last spring..


Feb 09, 2013 at 09:34 AM
acjd
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p.9 #13 · Birders vs Photographers


burtcg wrote:
...

Sorry, but bottom line is......the debate is pointless...


If you feel that debating the pros and cons of human behavior towards wildlife is pointless, then that's your right to hold that opinion. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, educating the public on issues is important. And that is my right to hold that opinion. Education should never end.




Feb 09, 2013 at 11:01 AM
acjd
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p.9 #14 · Birders vs Photographers


Larry Williams wrote:
Ah, I see that you have an opinion, good for you.


No, I expressed absolutely no opinion on the use of baiting owls with live animals on this thread. Zero. Here when a poster wanted evidence of behavior modification, I referred to the USFWS federal guidelines on Eagle protection, which are recommendations, not law, that provided guidance based upon scientific study. Thats a reference, not an opinion. Here I was defending Herb since accusations were flying before he had a chance to speak for himself. No where did I express any opinion on the use of live animals for owl bait.

Larry Williams wrote:
See or not to see, that is the question.............

Diversion? Not, and that's my opinion.

What is your take on the photo? Isn't that part of the question at hand?


You can believe your photo is not a diversion, and have the right to do so. But that does not change the fact that changing the subject, which appears to be the baiting for owls using live animals for the purpose of photographing them, with a picture of an Eagle is, in fact, a diversion away from the fundamental debate.

Anytime someone tries to change the discussion using any number of different methods such as red herrings, or any other means, just weakens the argument of the proponent of the action in question.

I have no horse in this race. I'll never see a live owl hunting in my life. I'm suggesting keeping the discussion on topic and not about bird feeders, slinging dead fish into rivers, or dumps. There is pretty big difference between feeding songbirds seeds and owls live animals. Let the debate run its course on topic.

That is what I am trying to say.




Feb 09, 2013 at 11:22 AM
JeffAUSTIN
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p.9 #15 · Birders vs Photographers


acjd wrote:
If you feel that debating the pros and cons of human behavior towards wildlife is pointless, then that's your right to hold that opinion. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, educating the public on issues is important. And that is my right to hold that opinion. Education should never end.




I want to be educated. where is the science or facts that say feeding animals is harmful to the animal fed?

link i found from birder website on feeding birds

birder website for feeding birds



Feb 09, 2013 at 11:27 AM
acjd
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p.9 #16 · Birders vs Photographers


JeffAUSTIN wrote:
I want to be educated. where is the science or facts that say feeding animals is harmful to the animal fed?


I know nothing about owls (or most anything else) so I'm not going to speak to them. For eagles, I suggest reading
here and following what was said there. At the end of those federal guidelines are contact numbers. Contact numbers are there for a reason. I'm sure they would be glad to explain the data behind their statement of several decades of behavioral observations, science, and conservation measures to avoid or minimize adverse impacts to bald eagles.

On the other hand, if you want to talk about bird feeders and songbirds, I cannot find a single authoritative, rigorous study, accepted by the scientific community, that says feeding them is harmful in any way. I don't mean a study done by someone with a vested interest, on one side of the debate or the other, but a rigorous study accepted by the majority of wildlife experts. If you find one, please let me know because I would be interested to know.

If you mean ducks and whatever in ponds where there are signs that say DO NOT FEED THE WILDLIFE, well they are probably good reasons. Once, up around Lake Tahoe, I saw signs saying to not feed the squirrels. Why? Because they carried the plague.

If you want a really good reason why its not good to feed wildlife, read the book Night of the Grizzlies published in 1969 concerning the deaths of two people in Glacier. After reading that, you might really think twice about feeding bears.



Feb 09, 2013 at 11:42 AM
uz2work
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p.9 #17 · Birders vs Photographers


JeffAUSTIN wrote:
I want to be educated. where is the science or facts that say feeding animals is harmful to the animal fed?

link i found from birder website on feeding birds

birder website for feeding birds


First, a number of people in this thread on the anti-baiting side of the discussion have made a clear distinction between baiting raptors in the wild and putting up a bird feeder (provided that those who put up the feeder are making a commitment to keeping it filled, keeping it clean, etc.).

With regard to owls, it really doesn't take more than common sense, when you see a location where the photographers are outnumbering the owls by ratios of 10 to 1 or much higher, where the same birds are being baited with dozens of mice each day for several weeks, and where you can see that the birds are clearly associating people and their vehicles as a source of food and showing no fear toward either, to conclude that these birds are being put at risk. If you are looking for more than common sense, I'd suggest contacting a place like the University of Minnesota Raptor Center, which has done some of the most respected raptor research in the world. I'm sure that they will be able to provide you with their research and that they will also share with you strong feelings against baiting.

With regard to feeding the eagles, a major issue is that eagles, like most birds, are attracted to an area where they see other birds of their species because they assume that, if the other birds are there, food must be there also. When baiting of the eagles is done, more eagles are attracted than the natural food supply can sustain. On a Saturday or Sunday, when the masses of baiters are present, the eagles can fill their bellies. On Monday, however, when no one is there with the bait fish, those eagles may have to fly for hours to find another source of food, and, especially on the coldest days of the winter, they don't have the energy reserve to be able to so, and their survival is being put at risk. Again, I'm certain that those at a place like the University of Minnesota Raptor Center would be better able to explain the concept than am I.

I also know that I've been to responsible raptor recovery facilities where, while birds were recovering from injuries and being prepared to be released back into the wild, those facilities have taken care to make certain that the bird does not see that its food source is humans because they do not want the bird to develop an association between humans and a source of food.

Unfortunately, though, those who feel that it is there right to get pictures, even if they are the virtually identical pictures that dozens of others are getting, aren't really interested in being educated, and they are only interested in rationalizing why what they are doing is okay. As someone who is opposed to baiting, I could also ask a similar question and ask those who support baiting to give me concrete research that shows that baiting is not harmful.

Even though I don't think that baiting raptors is either appropriate or ethical under any circumstances, I'm much less concerned about the negative impact of a single photographer who comes across a raptor in the wild and baits it with one or two "snacks" than I am about the negative impact of continuous and repeated baiting over a long period of time by larger groups of photographers.



Feb 09, 2013 at 12:06 PM
JeffAUSTIN
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p.9 #18 · Birders vs Photographers


I dont know any exact science or study, but having lived in Alaska for many years, I can say lots of animals get baited and in the huge state with plenty of wildlife and few people I never saw or heard of anything harmful. Shoot a lady7 in Homer had a book published of her feeding the eagles for 50 years or something like that.

The biggest uproar isnt about baiting but trash. The animals like wolves and bears come out of the wild to hunt our trash cans and eat our pets....but thats a different topic.

maybe in the lower 48 in an area where there is only 1 bird within 50 miles I can see the point....but wildlife knows how to survive, and birds have been around bazillions of year before man...so I dont think many really know wtf they talking about and just like hearing themselves talk. or maybe in this thread im the one liking to hear myself talk.



Feb 10, 2013 at 01:41 AM
uz2work
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p.9 #19 · Birders vs Photographers


JeffAUSTIN wrote:
I dont know any exact science or study, but having lived in Alaska for many years, I can say lots of animals get baited and in the huge state with plenty of wildlife and few people I never saw or heard of anything harmful. Shoot a lady7 in Homer had a book published of her feeding the eagles for 50 years or something like that.



Her name was Jean Keene, and I find her to be a curious choice to use as an example to argue that baiting is okay.

She died in the 2009, and during the last years of her life, attempts were being made to shut down her baiting operation because of its negative long term impact on the eagles. In 2006, the Homer City Council passed an ordinance that would have required her to shut down her baiting operation gradually and to end it completely by 2010. Their concern about shutting her down immediately was based on fears that those eagles had become so dependent on her and on humans for food that, if they did shut her down immediately, there would be mass starvation within that eagle population, and their concerns were supported by both various federal agencies and private conservation-based institutions. In her legal battle to keep her operation going, much of her support came from those who didn't want to lose the tourism dollars that she was bringing into the area.

Thus, I find that using her as an argument for baiting to be akin to using Lance Armstrong as an argument to prove that professional sports have historically been drug free. If anything, she might be the text book example to use to argue that baiting should not be done.

Les



Feb 10, 2013 at 02:52 AM
Steve McDonald
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p.9 #20 · Birders vs Photographers


Baiting of one kind or another is so widespread, we'd have difficulty avoiding it. The Taverner's Geese in my photo here were baited, by the grass that was planted for the lawn. More than a million white-cheeked geese winter in our region, most of them baited here by the millions of acres involved in grass-seed farming. Before this enterprise existed, there were only a few wintering geese. If I'm going to be a non-baiting purist, I'll have to forget about ever photographing any of them again. The Robins and Flickers at a backyard holly tree, would have to be off-limits, as well. No more Accipter shots, when they come to catch doves at my feeders.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3500/4067260721_50d4fb4b3d_b.jpg

Edited on Feb 10, 2013 at 09:33 AM · View previous versions



Feb 10, 2013 at 04:02 AM
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