Sorry to see you go, but if you have to go then you have to go. I have this conversation with people all time, and most agree that in life, it's better to find places and groups where people appreciate/accept/welcome you than ones where you (or what you do) isn't welcome.
Nov 20, 2012 at 03:15 PM
Andre Labonte Offline • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
fb101 wrote:
I have had a web site for years, André, you should know that.
Yes,I know you do have a web page. That is my point ... your web page is like having your own gallery ... you should post the image there, for there is the only place you will truely be able to post without sensorship ... at least within your own sphere of influence. What governments and buisnesses do is beyond your control of course.
Oh Please, this has been a debate and a request for years ... long before I joined the forum this debate has raged on. Fred must have his reasons, but he has chosen not to entertain this suggestion. I wish he would. After all, if weddings and sports can have their own segment, why not "controversal" material?
The point is precisely that : I don't know, even after the censorship where the boundaries are.
I've been told " too many complaints" ... How many grains of sand does it take to make a heap ? How many complaints ( and by whom ) before it becomes unaceeptable; These questions are still pending...
And if a bonded girls creates " too many complaints " today, what tells me a topless girl won't tomorrow ?
Also, seen from where I stand those complaitns are ANONYMOUS. This is the same plague the one Face Book suffers from : anonymous complaints are allowed to result in censorship actions. I think this is really a dangerous direction.
I would a favor a systeme where people could clik on a " I want suppression of this image" button, their name visible; And when you'd reach a certain amount of clicks ( For Fred to say where the right number is ), then off goes the photo......Show more →
If there were a system where one could click to disapprove of a photo, surely there would also be in the same system, a method to click to APPROVE of the photo. Yes, a thumbs up or down.
fb101 wrote:
I have had a web site for years, André, you should know that.
And the "This isn't a court of law, you don't have the right to face your accusers" is just frightful ! I hope you do'nt have to many guys like this "Alohadave" who, of course, unlike André Labonte, doesn't operate under his real name...
Jim Rickards wrote:
If there were a system where one could click to disapprove of a photo, surely there would also be in the same system, a method to click to APPROVE of the photo. Yes, a thumbs up or down.
I'm not sure why either system is needed, if you don't like the photos someone posts, can't you just use the 'hide me' button to make them go away? If it works properly (I've never used it, but I assume that's how it works), it seems like the problem fixes itself. That's how most forums do it, at least.
This really really sucks. After you been on this forum couple of times, how do you not know what to expect when you see the op name! You see holloway expect families kids, whatever, you see fb101 you know what you're going to expect. At what point does the person clicking accept responsibility for what they see?
Critics have long lambasted literature, works of art and theater. In our on-line world everyone can be a critic. And everyone can have a say about a work of art. And not every work of art is to everyone taste. And some may feel it's not good to even show it. I was the art gallery assistant as a University and put up the shows for masters candidates. Some where good, some bad, some of good and some of poor taste. But it all went up. And that's the magic. The previous post here from a known and well received artist was a venture into territory that some may not appreciate including myself. And I used my privilege to become a critic. I didn't like it. But I also would defend the artists right to show it. I stand by his right to show something and my right to say I didn't like it. Those are basic tenants in the free world. And especially the world of art. In fact, I think the art should be reposted and let the critics go at it. So what. That's art. What I am amazed at is that an artist of this caliber would be so hurt by the remarks as to go away. When one pushes limits on art, it has to be expected that some will be criticized. Taking one's marbles home because someone said something bad about his game is not very courageous. I have always respected this artist for pushing the limits. But quitting? Sorry, but that just seems to be about ego. And sulking because for once not everyone gave him the usual accolades on his fine work. Get over it. And get yourself back here pushing like you always have. I would personally ask him to simply dust off and return. No apologies. Put the piece back up because everyone wants to see it now. And take the heat. Having your art scorned is part of the deal. In many ways, it's the barometer if anyone really looks at the work. You know people notice when they throw tomatoes. And you know that your critics are not asleep. Or your audience.
So, I do not apologize for my criticism. But, I do humbly request the artist return and keep posting. . . . and keep pushing. And I would simply ask as many as possible to send this message as well. Keep up. Be brave. Don't run away. And don't stop even if I don't like something you did.
I haven't been active here for a while mainly due to work and family commitments but I'll be sorry to see Francois go and will be less likely to drop by now he's going.
Like many here I haven't always "liked" the work he has posted but I appreciate his skill at both lighting and photography.
I guess I'll just spend more time on 500Px
Ravitej, you have misread me : I'm not going away because people don't like that picture ( this has happened a hundred times and I couldn't care elss ). I'm not going away because the picture has been taking off the wall.... I am going away because some people entered the exhibition room, complained, and the curator saw fit to accept their recrimination and took the picture off the wall.
I can never in the future exhibit in that museum again as long as the curator keeps accepting " too many complaints"...... He either sets clear rules I can accept or refuse or I'm not coming back. Since he is - rightfully - the master of his place, I just have to bail out
And I take the opportunity to thank him to let this debate develop....
OK. Not done yet here. The artist calls himself an amateur. Please. This artist is pro all the way. This is pro level work. I work with photographers from all over as an art director. This is a professional photographer and fine artist. Maybe that's what this thread and posting is all about. Admitting he is a professional. And high caliber. And as all great artists, having to acquire a thicker skin and becoming immune to critics. And have a little giggle over having stirred the pot. Visit his website. He's a pro. And just experienced a worldwide flame on a well respected website. So why not wear it like a badge of honor. This may have done more for your ego then all the nice praises. Be grateful. You just made it into the next level of work. A few scars make for some interesting stories. And so what if you said you weren't coming back. You're an artist. A few emotions go along with the territory. You can just say, OK, OK I won't go away. Cut off an ear or something instead. Can you imagine what a man of that stature of Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec had to put up with?
Folks, FM is a "worldly" product. As such, the opportunity to offend goes well beyond the borders of any country or region. Any individual on the planet with internet access can have an opinion and reply to a post. At the end of the day, their opinion it is just that, a single opinion. What is considered acceptable in one location may not meet with approval in another.
Yes I saw the photo, in my opinion, this particular post may not have been his best work. I simply dismissed it offering no comment. Why, because its his right to post and my right to ignore. As someone just mentioned, that is what the hide me button is all about. Are we REALLY expecting to log on to FM and be presented with a homogenized version of the world? A very myopic scope of reality IMO.
Regarding the OP, I do wish there was another way. Its sad to see a FM contributor leave for something like this.
Well, I did not realize it was removed. As an art gallery assistant I also had to defend an artist who was "shut down" because it was too naughty. At the University it finally became a full scale riot of thousands. Over art. And he eventually won. So. I would then say to Fred Miranda that some art is criticized more that others. And have to defend the art. I didn't like it, but that is only my take on it. And my right to criticize. But if the forum took it down just because it was not liked. Well, that infringes. But that's tough too. You are an artist with sensitivity. And push the limits but in good taste. You bump right up against it sometimes, but never go over the line. And this past post simply did not go over the line. And some of the gruesome stuff here does. And some may want to go way over the line into outright porn. And Fred Miranda feels that have to have some criteria. Tough spot for them to be in. So, then it goes back to the forum members. I will formally say that the piece was not over the line and should be reposted. Even though I didn't like it and felt it was demeaning to women. I ask FM to repost. I ask for that freedom of expression. I ask for other forum members to post and email the same. Let this post and thread be a statement of freedom of expression. Let's have a vote. I cast mine for that freedom of expression. Who will join me in stating our desire to keep this artist online and showing by not censoring this piece of art, even if we don't like it.
fb101 wrote:
hundred times and I couldn't care elss ). I'm not going away because the picture has been taking off the wall.... I am going away because some people entered the exhibition room, complained, and the curator saw fit to accept their
Well I think if any of us were in your shoes, we would probably feel compelled to do the same thing. Management could answer that you had 'crossed the line' already, but that crossing the line is tolerated _except_ when too many people complain. Many forums are run like this in a de-facto sort of way, and that's okay; I mean there are plenty of forums out there and you really just have to find a place where you or your work will be accepted.
Ravitej,
“Demeaning to women”, that’s the best you’ve got. What next, an artfully done shot of a woman being raped, someone being shot to death. Where do you draw the line sir.
Bert DeMars wrote:
Ravitej,
“Demeaning to women”, that’s the best you’ve got. What next, an artfully done shot of a woman being raped, someone being shot to death. Where do you draw the line sir.
Fredmiranda.com belongs to Fred Miranda. Let him do as he pleases. And if that displeases you, there are other internet sites to visit. You can agree or disagree on the forum standards. But please at least respect the forum owner. It's called house rules.
Some of the posters here are too drama about this whole thing. I wonder if these same folks while visiting a friend/relative home would clip their nails or trim their pubic hair at the living room. Then proceed to tell the host that they need to permit freedom of expression and that the host and children can always turn the other way.
fb101 I enjoy your soft-core porn/boudoir art whatever. I have a brain and choose to click on it or not. I am not forced nor coerced to it. But if you gotta go, you gotta go. Take care and au revoir.
There is no 18 or over sign-in restriction on this sight. Children today have better computer savy than their parents. Do you not care what children have access to. As I said before, fb101 does impeccable work, but when it spills over into porn, it shouldn't be on a family access site. Do you show your children porn.
Bert DeMars wrote:
Ravitej,
“Demeaning to women”, that’s the best you’ve got. What next, an artfully done shot of a woman being raped, someone being shot to death. Where do you draw the line sir.
People do get shot. You should be thankful that some are brave enough to cover such things. Or you could pull the wool further over your eyes.
I've been one of the "NSFW Police" on occasion, but only because, out of courtesy, I believe things should be labelled as such, so that we can all enjoy the work shown at the appropriate computer.
If you see a post that says "nude/implied violence" and your delicate sensibilities cannot handle it, maybe you should move on?
