Bert DeMars wrote:
As I said before, Francois is a gifted photographer, no question. When you start demeaning women, that draws the line for me in an unrestricted, family access forum. Merely putting up (NSFW/violence) is an insufficient safeguard. My god, how many other photography forums have you been on where there is a warning of VIOLENCE. Doesn’t that bother you. What next (killing/rape), (animal mutilation). I’m not responding to anymore porn advocates.
It's staged, not reality. As long as they are consenting adults, whatever.
I don't like the photo but, if he likes it, or the people he made the photo for like it, or it has some audience, then more the power to him.
At some point, children learn the difference between fantasy and reality, know this difference and you know where the line is. For instance, making a movie about a bank robbery is perfectly acceptable, even if robbing a bank irl isn't.
The type of photography he was doing is just depiction, and people having been imagining or depicting terrible/awful/dark/nasty things since the beginning of time. Seriously it's just part of the human condition. There's no reason he shouldn't be able to do his thing as long as he's not harming anyone.
Too bad this has transpired. I didn't see the image but I visited his website and I assume if there was something on there that was really offensive to some, it must have come from his bondage gallery on his site. In spite of how the media and hollywood portray us, we are still quite a conservative nation and images like that, while technically superb from a photographic sense, have too much shock value for most so a large number of complaints wouldn't surprise me if it in fact was one of the bondage images. I can't blame FM, he has to consider the entire population of FM and any decision he makes regarding such an image is going to be wrong from someone's perspective but given the violence in our society, there are some decisions that he just has to make.
Saying that, I'm a big fan of Francois' other work. His lighting technique, artistic compositions, locations, models, are simply top shelf. I study and learn from his work, and other times I get lost in the enjoyment of the image. I can't blame him for leaving FM either. I would assume that a person of his talent would have been offended to have his work removed. A certain amount of pride gets stung and it would be easy to have a knee-jerk reaction. It's human nature. I don't know that this is what happened but it would be easy to conceive it as such.
Either way, one has to know that some images may invoke strong negative reactions and we can choose to take the high road of "art" and "freedom" in our own defense...or...we can appreciate that others may not like some type of "art" and express their "freedom" by voicing their opinions, even if it is dislike.
It's obvious that Francois is well liked on this site and I am one who wishes you would reconsider your decision. So one image seemed to have been too much for the forum, the rest of your work has always been appreciated and I'd be willing to bet even management has appreciated your work on this site. Anyway, I respect whatever decision you make, but it my eyes, you have more to offer others by staying than by going away because of some philosophical differences with management.
Gyrine wrote:
make, but it my eyes, you have more to offer others by staying than by going away because of some philosophical differences with management.
With some much out there, It is easier and better to find a place where you are accepted rather than stick around in one you are not or one where you have no future. Especially online, people coming together and parting is just part of the experience.
Granted a site or forum that loses critical mass of good, helpful, friendly, quality etc. people quickly goes under. But people photography is probably the most apt-to-offend type, so people photographers who want to 'see it all' or push the limits in their own photos will naturally gravitate toward the less controlled / moderated sites.
I think we as photographers know or at least have a sense when certain types of images are going to push the limits and potentially create controversy. I think we can also find such venues online and post those there since they exist. But I would not say that Francois is not accepted or has no future here on FM. On the contrary, the number of posts on here suggest he's very accepted and would continue to be an inspiration to others on this site...that's a pretty good future I would say. Have you seen his website? It's full of fantastic images. Truly artistic and inspiring. I only cringed with the bondage portfolio.
I've seen your work over the years, love some of it, didn't care for some of it, but all in all you were a great contributor to this site. It's sad to see you go. Best of luck fb.
Gyrine wrote:
and potentially create controversy. I think we can also find such venues online and post those there since they exist. But I would not say that Francois is not accepted or has no future here on FM. On the contrary, the number of posts on here suggest he's very accepted and would continue to be an inspiration to others on this site...that's a pretty good
But if he wants to keep 'pushing the limits', this evidently isn't the place for him.
He's accepted by us, no doubt. But he, or his photography, is not accepted by this site. The correlation between the two is weak at best.
I'm not saying it's good or bad, but let's face it, not every type of management is going to work for every type of photography. With people photography being the most apt to offend, it's at a natural disadvantage in this type of environment.
I agree with you Access. But only a very limited string of his photography is apparently not for this site and if that's the only direction Francois wants to take, then yes I guess there's no other option but to find a new venue. But, I think about 95% of everything else he does is still wanted here and I suspect he'll continue to shoot those types of images as well. He does some of the most tasteful artistic nudes and general portraits around. That's the only point I want to make. We have to understand, as photographers, that there are limits on many sites and those are rarely black or white. So if we choose to push the limits, and I applaud him for doing that, we have to understand that we are going to find those limits eventually. I think we now know where that is here on FM. We also know what is and has been acceptable for years now. Rather than get feathers ruffled and leave, why not continue to share the other types of images with the many followers/fans here on FM? It's probably all for not as I believe his decision is firm. I can't fault either his decision or FM's. I can't help but wonder whether any decisions were made in haste/anger and whether escalation of commitment has set a course that deep down no one really wants. Everyone loses on this one if you ask me.
Bad decision on your part, sir, bad decision! I can foresee the day when the slippery slope has some folks complaining about the sadomasochistic content of images embedded in landscape renderings. Bad decision indeed.
It isn't a slippery slippery slope at all since Fred knows where the line is (if only generally). And lets not forget Fred did not kick Francois off FM; he merely deleted a post he felt was controversial.
Ronny Mills wrote:
How will a poster know when his/her work will run afoul of FM's group of censors and their unwritten code?
Like Francois, they may not know where the line is but as long as there is no punishment, what's the harm. If our own Supreme Court cannot define what qualifies as obscene and what does not, how can we expect Fred to. Fred knows it when he sees it.
While I wish Fred would just create a sub-forum for posters like Francois, who's work I usually enjoy, IMHO Fred is being quite fair.
Well, amazing number of comments over the night ( 8:00 am here in Paris )
Two things :
1) I'm not a PRO. " Professionalism" is not a function of how well you master an art. It's a function of you accepting or refusing paid commissions. And I don't. I do it purely for my pleasure, which of course leads me to be fairly inflexible on a number of principle.
2) Again, Fred does what he likes, he's a nice guy and his one intervention here shows that. And that intervention says clearly he has been worried that too many complaints were going to create problems. He says he reacts to complaints, not to his tastes. THAT is the one thing that makes me go
If I'm invited to a home and behave badly, the guy who invits me as a right to eject me. But if the others guests complain about me, than the inviting power is left with the choice to side with them and eject me, in which case he basically says I'm wrong, or he could side with me and say to the guests : " I'm the only one to decide what's bad in my home".
The only rule I know and which I've always respected is : " in case of nude images, embed it behind a link and state it's a nude". In that case I carefully did that. Clearly it was not enough. A new criteria applied and it came in existence becasue of COMPLAINTS. This brings an element of incertitude that I do not wish to accept
Again, thanks to all. And, while I hope you will all stay at FM and enjoy the pictures, from time to time comme to Deviant Art, where the full serie ( 11 pictures) of the session is now on show HERE
Gyrine wrote:
acceptable for years now. Rather than get feathers ruffled and leave, why not continue to share the other types of images with the many followers/fans here on FM? It's probably all for not as I believe his decision is firm. I can't fault either his decision or FM's. I can't help but wonder whether any decisions were made in haste/anger and whether escalation of commitment has set a course that deep down no one really wants. Everyone loses on this one if you ask me.
I would do the same thing; and not at all from a knee-jerk or emotional perspective but a completely rational one. Once you have found place(s) where you can be fully accepted, why censor yourself in order to spend your time in places that don't fully accept you?
Sometimes no one does anything wrong, yet people still have to part. Online, relative to sites, people come and go all the time; the groups or sites that survive a long time aren't the ones that remain static or hold onto everyone but the ones that keep attracting new people to account for turnover.
Even being in a large local photographic club (50+ active members) lately, it seems like, perhaps, photographers who primarily work with people aren't a huge group, maybe 10-30% of the overall population in the west. To expect the whole club to cater to our own needs above the needs of others would be selfish and nothing more; I don't know what the percentage is online but if it's a minority we shouldn't expect this either.
Again, not an issue of being accepted here or not. Just the issue of not knowing in advance which work will be accepted, which one will be rejected. And the fact that the owner prefers to reacts to anonymous complaints rather than to clear rules he would set and stick to...
fb101 wrote:
Again, not an issue of being accepted here or not. Just the issue of not knowing in advance which work will be accepted, which one will be rejected. And the fact that the owner prefers to reacts to anonymous complaints rather than to clear rules he would set and stick to...
I think people need a new perspective. It is a privledge to post on this forum, not a right. You are one of the most controversial artists on this forum and in 7.5 years and after hundreds of posts, you have had only two of your post removed:
One showing a woman masterbating while looking at a picture of a child.
One apparently depicted what could be constued as a rape (I did not see this one)
These topics in a forum that claims to be family friendly and is clearly international and cross-cultural. Come on Francois, BE RESONABLE, there are forums that specialize in such material. You have to expect that on this forum, there is a small portion of your work which will be removed. By my count, < 0.5% for the most controversial artist on the forum is pretty darn good and shows Fred is very very VERY open minded towards your work.
The whole point of much of your work is that you push the boundries and even make new ones ... how do you reasonably expect Fred to give YOU clear guidelines? What you are asking for is an oxymoron.
Again, I respect you as an artist and I enjoy a good segment of your work. I'm offering a different prespective.
As I said before, Francois is a gifted photographer, no question. When you start demeaning women, that draws the line for me in an unrestricted, family access forum. Merely putting up (NSFW/violence) is an insufficient safeguard. My god, how many other photography forums have you been on where there is a warning of VIOLENCE. Doesn’t that bother you. What next (killing/rape), (animal mutilation). I’m not responding to anymore porn advocates.
"porn"? I'm just going to assume you have never looked at actual porn.
You could even, I don't know, round up all the devices capable of smut-delivery and burn them for posterity sake.
I had to create a devinart acct to see the image in question - people have issues with it? seriously?? I found you on 500px where I spend more time anyway.... Thx for the images over the long time, I have loved many and hated some - it's all good because anything down the middle is just meh. Please keep sharing in the other places......
What you are asking for is an oxymoron.