Spyro P. wrote:
what do you mean no reason? enough people want it and can afford it to have a factory to make it for them, thats the reason. The world is not a centrally designed economy to only produce what is necessary or cost efficient...
for better or for worse.
You suggest that Leica customers want to over pay?
Difficult question... there's a range of leica customers:
some dont give a sh!t no matter the price (Seal et al), some even prefer to pay more just to show off
some are only interested in future price (collectors, traders and investors)
some are happy to pay as long as it meets their perceptions (made in germany = better)
some save their pennies and are not happy to overpay but they do it anyway because there's no cheaper FF/RF alternative to mount their glass on.
most leica customers belong in more than one of these categories, so part of them is happy to overpay and part of them isnt. In the end many have a big fight either with themselves or their wives
Leica made in china? I wouldn't buy a Sony if it isn't made in Japan. The main attraction of Leica is the quality and finishing of the products. Those who prefer mediocre have all the remaining brands to choose from
rattymouse wrote:
Manufacturing outside of Germany, using modern techniques would remove a lot of the Leica luxury tax which would bring in enthusiasts instead of the jet setting fashionistas.
INteresting given that Leica does a lot of its manufacturing in Portugal, and used to do most in Canada (Elcan is still around, but is an industrial/military optics company unassociated with Leica AG these days)
edwardkaraa wrote:
Anyhow this thread is becoming a bit deja vu.
true Ι just had this visual image of myself typing all this up somewhere before... was it here?
anyway leica discussions are a dead end, let lovers love and haters hate
edwardkaraa wrote:
Leica made in china? I wouldn't buy a Sony if it isn't made in Japan. The main attraction of Leica is the quality and finishing of the products. Those who prefer mediocre have all the remaining brands to choose from
Anyhow this thread is becoming a bit deja vu.
You'll get into an aircraft made with Chinese parts but not shoot with a Chinese made camera? Your priorities are mixed up!
eosfun wrote:
Sorry, we disagree. IMO, the Leicaflexes were minimalist cameras in comparison to the Japanese competition. Their models were behind with the first Leicaflexes not even having TTL metering, no exchangeable viewfinders, a limited system with less lenses and accesoires etc. The Japanese camera manufacturers, after being succesful as Leica copy-ists, decided to kill their rangefinder product lines and went for the succes of the SLR models. Their innovative SLR's had features that Leica always was behind or refused to implement at all because of their camera design philosphy. Models from the Japanese like Nikon (F series and Nikkormat), Canon (Pellix, Ftb and F1), Asahi Pentax (spotmatic) and brands like Topcon, Miranda (yes probably Fred's ancestors ) made Leica have a difficult time because their camera's seemed to be too simple, too expensive in comparison to the Japanese....Show more →
Actually, the original Leicaflex was pretty similar to most mid/upper end SLR's of the day. It's main problem was that it was introduced at the same time as the Spotmatic, which popularized TTL metering. In 1964 when it was introduced only the spotmatic offered integrated TTL metering. The SL was typical, but the competition quickly updated and Leica didn't because Leica wasn't capable of fast development at the time.
And only a few cameras at the time had interchangeable finders while the SL Mot was one of very few SLR's of the time to offer a motor drive, an item which wouldn't become popular until the 70's (one of the rare areas where Leica was ahead of the game on features). The Leicaflex's failed primarily due to their high price compared to similarly-spec'd Japanese SLR's and their slow updating of their line (Leica typically would introduce a camera that was comparable to its competition, then wait over-long to update it). And of course the R3/R4/R5 would simply be Minolta designs modified to Leica needs and at a serious premium (and the Minolta equivalents were typically more reliable).
I reiterate, the only minimalist R mount body was the R6/R6.2, the others were either typical of the era (Leicaflex's, R3-R5) or high-feature bodies with an odd choice of features (R8/R9)
edwardkaraa wrote:
Leica made in china? I wouldn't buy a Sony if it isn't made in Japan.
Sorry, Edward, but Sony make a ton of cameras, including Alpha and NEX in Thailand. As do Nikon BTW, at least lenses. The country of origin, as much, or as little, as we know about it, has long ceased to matter, quality-wise, IMHO.
rattymouse wrote:
You'll get into an aircraft made with Chinese parts but not shoot with a Chinese made camera? Your priorities are mixed up!
I only take airbus never boeing. Anyhow for flying I have no choice, but whenever I can choose I avoid chinese products.
philber wrote:
Sorry, Edward, but Sony make a ton of cameras, including Alpha and NEX in Thailand. As do Nikon BTW, at least lenses. The country of origin, as much, or as little, as we know about it, has long ceased to matter, quality-wise, IMHO.
When I used sony my camera and lenses were all japanese. Now I have no idea.
You see the inconsistency? You rip Chinese quality, but then would put your life into one of their planes.
Fact is, China has THE most advanced manufacturing capability in the world. Maybe not for semiconductors yet, but that is growing FAST here too. China produces a lot of crap, but only because they are ASKED to. Most manufacturers here produce to order. They are not the end seller. So they make what ever they are asked to and a LOT of orders are for cheap crap. If they are asked to produce quality (Boeing, Apple, etc), then they make quality.
I'm an American living in China, and my job sends me into all kinds of Chinese manufacturing plants. I've seen it first hand here, and in the US and US plants are decades behind most Chinese ones.
meh technology and know how gets transferred around man
I remember a time when people used to make fun of japanese cars, then they started buying them because they were good and cheap. Then it was the same with Korean cars, now it's the same with Chinese cars etc
I too try to avoid chinese products but only because I prefer to support places where people earn a wage they can actually live on.
philber wrote:
Sorry, Edward, but Sony make a ton of cameras, including Alpha and NEX in Thailand. As do Nikon BTW, at least lenses. The country of origin, as much, or as little, as we know about it, has long ceased to matter, quality-wise, IMHO.
Spyro P. wrote:
meh technology and know how gets transferred around man
I remember a time when people used to make fun of japanese cars, then they started buying them because they were good and cheap. Then it was the same with Korean cars, now it's the same with Chinese cars etc
I too try to avoid chinese products but only because I prefer to support places where people earn a wage they can actually live on.
Chinese workers dont live on their salaries? That's news to me! At my company's plant in Shanghai, there is a parking lot for those who manufacturer our products. A parking lot for CARS.
And even at the lesser paid plants, the workers there look like workers at most US plants. Sure, not as rich as in the US, but this is still VERY MUCH a developing country. Most Chinese workers not only support themselves on their salary but also their older parents, if they are still living. There is no social security system here like the US and families have to take care of themselves.
Back to the original track, if I may. Actually Leica have been adressing a number of different requirements with their offering IMHO. It is (a) the only "small" FF camera, (b) the only true digital rangefinder, (c) the best platform for rangefider glass, (d) a status symbol.
My guess is that other manufacturers won't copycat the Leica M, but may well take cracks at one or another aspect of Leica's attractiosn to customers. Such as Sony with the RX1, for small-FF lovers
A word on the quality of things made in different countries. Coming from country that used to be part of USSR I can remind that quality was far from top priorities there. And, I guess, it used to be similar in China. It might have changed now but I do not know that yet. I know for sure that Germans traditionally take pride in the products they offer and I presume they are well motivated to do so financially. Therefore I trust in the quality of lenses made in Germany. Of course, with effort it is possible to train staff to make quality products anywhere in the world, but in some countries it may take more persuasion and effort due to the historical and cultural circumstances.
You see the inconsistency? You rip Chinese quality, but then would put your life into one of their planes.
Fact is, China has THE most advanced manufacturing capability in the world. Maybe not for semiconductors yet, but that is growing FAST here too. China produces a lot of crap, but only because they are ASKED to. Most manufacturers here produce to order. They are not the end seller. So they make what ever they are asked to and a LOT of orders are for cheap crap. If they are asked to produce quality (Boeing, Apple, etc), then they make quality.
I'm an American living in China, and my job sends me into all kinds of Chinese manufacturing plants. I've seen it first hand here, and in the US and US plants are decades behind most Chinese ones. ...Show more →
+1
Put leica talk aside, I agree this full heartily. Thanks!
