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Archive 2012 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

Gunzorro
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p.2 #1 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

cannpope -- I know you must have very good reasons, but I don't really see what is to be gained going to (for example) OM-D from some APS-C cameras. Even the more expensive APS-C size being mentioned lack the versatility and convenience of the smaller DSLRs.

Why is it that you are avoiding the T4i, D3200, and various small Pentax, Sony,and other traditional OVF prism DSLR cameras? They aren't very big and have a well known form-factor.

Personally, I like the M43 Oly bodies like E-P2 and E-LP1, but even with the EVF, they are more like fun cameras, or convenience cameras, not "serious" cameras. (They are all a big too small for me, and I like bigger sensors when given the choice.)

Anyway, I know you know the products out there -- you're not a newbee. So, just curious why you are shucking all the DSLR stuff, rather than downsizing the bodies and lenses there, or adding a smaller camera to the mix.

Oct 31, 2012 at 07:24 PM

Mescalamba
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p.2 #2 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

sebboh wrote:
why do you have to be a decent photographer for it to be interesting?

Current generation is 20 mpix, which as any high mpix camera shows easily errors on photographers side. And is its bit less perfect sensor than NEX, its less tolerant to exposure errors aswell. Its not somehow tragic, but when some highlight is blown out, its pretty much gone. Old generation had near no recoverable highlights, current have around 1,5 eV. Simply put its not that much point and shoot.

m-a-x wrote:
And what should be done in PP to make the files shine?

Nothing particular, just Panasonic cams are pretty much RAW only devices. JPEGs dont do justice to them. So bit of PP knowledge is needed.

Yea and for both is best Capture One 7. Well, when they will manage to have stable release.

LR is good, just colors are pretty bad for both Panasonic and Samsung, tho with color profiles it might be better. Or with that mentioned PP.

Oct 31, 2012 at 08:01 PM

mawz
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p.2 #3 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

My take is pretty simple.

m43 (Oly). If you can't decide, this is the one you want. Any of the 16MP bodies has excellent IQ and the system has the best lens lineup.

m43 (Panny). As Oly, but if you're video oriented rather than stills, where Oly is the way to go for stills.

NEX. The best for adaptation, the lens lineup is a lot better than people make out (as of the ship date for the 10-18 and 35/1.8 all the basics are covered) but right now it's better for the Alt shooter than a serious native lens shooter. Bodies are outstanding and offers the best IQ overall, albeit by a small margin.

Fuji X. If you shoot JPEG and like traditional ergonomics, optical finders and fast primes here's your system. Problematic if you shoot tele, want a good EVF or really need good IQ from RAW. Also kinda pricey as the cheapest body is comparable in cost to the higher-end bodies from everybody else. High ISO monsters, but at the expense of artifacting and colour issues at lower ISO's (in RAW only, JPEG's are fine aside from some odd greens).

Samsung NX. Solid bodies with no real defining features, great lens lineup, limited adaptability (as mirrorless systems go). Pretty much the pick if you want the advantages of m43 with a larger sensor.

Canon EOS-M. If it just has to say Canon, or you need to adapt EF lenses with AF and aren't willing to trust a Chinese adapter. Otherwise overpriced and underperforming. IQ is at best comparable to the Oly 16MP m43 bodies.

Nikon 1/Pentax Q. Great for casual shooters, not ideal for shooters who want IQ

Pentax K-01. If you own K mount lenses and don't want an adapter. Great IQ, but it's huge and brick-like due to the SLR mount.

And you can add Sony to the list for 'best IQ from CaptureOne'.

Oct 31, 2012 at 09:39 PM

jcolwell
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p.2 #4 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

mawz wrote:
My take is pretty simple.
...Fuji X. If you shoot JPEG and like traditional ergonomics, optical finders and fast primes here's your system. Problematic if you shoot tele, want a good EVF or really need good IQ from RAW. Also kinda pricey as the cheapest body is comparable in cost to the higher-end bodies from everybody else. High ISO monsters, but at the expense of artifacting and colour issues at lower ISO's (in RAW only, JPEG's are fine aside from some odd greens). ..

Spot on! Although, I think the IQ from RAW can be really good.

I generally use my X-Pro 1 and X100 for indoors, close quarters shooting, in low light (i.e. high ISO). They're great for this, and should be substantially better when the Fujinon XF 56/1.4 R is in my back pocket.

Oct 31, 2012 at 09:58 PM

mawz
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p.2 #5 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

jcolwell wrote:
Spot on! Although, I think the IQ from RAW can be really good.

I'm shooting more landscape/cityscape and less street these days, which means the RAW conversion issues are huge for me. If I was shooting street/candids only like I'd concentrated on for the last few years I'd be all over the X Pro-1 as it's ideal for that aside from the somewhat problematic manual focus (I really dislike the Fuji EVF implementation on the X Pro-1 and X100)

Oct 31, 2012 at 10:09 PM

sebboh
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p.2 #6 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

briantho wrote:
Perhaps because you need to be able to handle RAW, as Samsun JPG sucks.

ah, i never associated developing with skill as a photographer.

Oct 31, 2012 at 10:14 PM

timpdx
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p.2 #7 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

As someone who is shipping his last DLSR lens off tomorrow from a complete Canon System, I can say I am pretty darn happy with my NEX7 system, but as others have said, the lens lineup is weak. I am in line to pick up the Sony 10-18 as soon as it comes out and have high hopes, the 16 pancake is a weak performer, IMO. I need WA far more than tele, but I am very very impressed with the 55-210 its quite sharp and holds up ok for the 24mp sensor. The weak lens in my lineup now is the kit 18-55, it was just ok on my NEX5 but is deficient on the 7. So I need to find a mid range tele.

Also have a RX100 as my small camera and am very, very pleased with IQ and the lens, great little camera.

Throw in a Sigma DP2M that I got a couple of weeks ago as my high rez landscape and backings camera (I shoot sometimes for the film business where we print 50 foot long backings, often stitching images) The DP2M is a resolution machine, I found it beat my 5DII and L glass, others may argue, but in my shooting recently, I say that its up close to 28-30mp in resolution.

So there you go, do I have regrets? Well, if I shot sports or something I might, but I shoot theater and dance and find the NEX system in dark conditions with the 55-210 is very competent and I really don't miss an SLR for those shoots and the NEX is so much quieter. (I remember the days where F2 glass was a requirement, but these dayse, even a slow zoom and the incredible resolution of cameras at high ISO and throw in modern noise reduction, well, I am liberated, for sure)

So I have aimed my camera lineup at high rez stitched landscapes, travel, friends and family, the odd theater show for publicity, and architecture. I think I am very happy with going compact, waiting and hoping the Sony 10-18 delivers on the wide end, otherwise I will go manual lens for those needs.

And I see the OP is from Simi Valley, where I was putting my new equipment to the test shooting ultra high rez golf courses a couple of days ago (up Tapo Cyn and in Moorpark) for a TV show.

Oct 31, 2012 at 10:20 PM

jcolwell
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p.2 #8 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

sebboh wrote:
...ah, i never associated developing with skill as a photographer.

Excellent point. I've been trying to be both, since switching to digital....

Oct 31, 2012 at 10:50 PM

alundeb
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p.2 #9 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

mawz wrote:
My take is pretty simple.

Nikon 1/Pentax Q. Great for casual shooters, not ideal for shooters who want IQ

.

Great to the point, concise summary on all systems you mentioned.

The Nikon 1 / Pentax Q have a niche application in that you can adapt telephoto lenses and utilize the high pixel density. My Canon 400 5.6 L on the Pentax Q produces a quality you would not imagine was possible. Despite more noise, it is way better than stacking 2 x 2X teleconverters and using the lens on a DSLR.

Nov 01, 2012 at 03:21 AM

Exdsc
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p.2 #10 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

Go with a system that does not compress its RAW files.

Fuji
Olympus
Sigma

You have only three options.

Nov 01, 2012 at 07:43 AM

slungu
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p.2 #11 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

Exdsc wrote:
Go with a system that does not compress its RAW files.

Fuji
Olympus
Sigma

You have only three options.

Not sure I understand what you are trying to tell us here.

Nov 01, 2012 at 07:56 AM

snowboarder
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p.2 #12 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

AF - OMD
MF - NEX
something different - Fuji

Nov 01, 2012 at 08:18 AM

Exdsc
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p.2 #13 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

slungu wrote:
Not sure I understand what you are trying to tell us here.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1157987

Sony NEX7 for example really compresses the heck of its RAW files, http://diglloyd.com/blog/2011/20111228_1-SonyNEX7-8bit.html

Nov 01, 2012 at 08:23 AM

carstenw
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p.2 #14 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

Exdsc wrote:
Go with a system that does not compress its RAW files.

Fuji
Olympus
Sigma

You have only three options.

Compression is good. Lossy compression is bad. There are way more options than you list.

Nov 01, 2012 at 08:29 AM

alundeb
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p.2 #15 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

FWIW, I have never seen any image quality degradation in my NEX 7 RAW files that could be ascribed to compression.

Nov 01, 2012 at 08:30 AM

slungu
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p.2 #16 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

Exdsc wrote:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1157987

Sony NEX7 for example really compresses the heck of its RAW files, http://diglloyd.com/blog/2011/20111228_1-SonyNEX7-8bit.html

Well, for the first one I have to say that you have to know what you are doing. For me RAW might have a lossless compression, and as far as I know this is how it is done by most of the cameras around. The fact that Nikon gave the possibility for a RAW format with loss in compression, i.e. something that would give you the benefit of stronger compression like jpg but the possibility to remain at more than 8bit/pixel and have all the other advantages that RAW processing brings is a nice feature, but not something I would enable in my camera for sure.
I kind of don't like the idea of Sony having put a lossy compression into the NEX7, but as long as it is good enough to obtain something not noticeable it is Ok. No need to think about it since your sensor does not record the 3 colours for all your pixels

Nov 01, 2012 at 09:06 AM

Exdsc
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p.2 #17 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

carstenw wrote:
Compression is good. Lossy compression is bad. There are way more options than you list.

Lossless compression is only an option in high-end DSLRs, all other forms of in-camera RAW compression is lossy, especially in most entry and mid level cameras - with no option to have uncompressed RAW.

A Fuji X100 (12mp) RAW file size is 25mb, the Sony Nex-7 (24mp) RAW file is also 24mb, something is not right there. This could be one of the reasons why people complain about Nex-7 color rendition.

The Sigma DP2M (14.6mp) RAW file size is 50mb. And Olympus has a specific page on its website mentioning how its .orf RAW files are uncompressed.

Nov 01, 2012 at 09:08 AM

Exdsc
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p.2 #18 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

slungu wrote:
Well, for the first one I have to say that you have to know what you are doing. For me RAW might have a lossless compression, and as far as I know this is how it is done by most of the cameras around. The fact that Nikon gave the possibility for a RAW format with loss in compression, i.e. something that would give you the benefit of stronger compression like jpg but the possibility to remain at more than 8bit/pixel and have all the other advantages that RAW processing brings is a nice feature, but not something I would...Show more →

Why in this day when storage is very cheap have RAW compression in the first place?

The DSLR makers compress RAW file in their entry level so to not canablize their high-end cameras, why a high-end camera like Sony Nex-7 bascially throws away half of its RAW data in order to have small RAW files?

But more importantly, could it be that uncompressed RAW files from Sony Nex-7 would most likely suprass the IQ of high-end Sony DSLRs? Hard to say but it makes one wonder.

Why OM-D the M4/3 sensor is getting so much praise for its image quality? Well, for one its RAW files are uncompressed. Not to mention Fuji X series and Sigma DP2m.

Nov 01, 2012 at 09:12 AM

slungu
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p.2 #19 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

No, it is not, at least not always. Canon's format is a TIFF form and it is loss less, the same goes for others I suppose. Regarding the Sigma, they are recording all 3 colors so yes, they do have to have 3x more space. But you also have to consider that compressing is a time consuming thing and that usually the algorithms that can compress more are also more time consuming, so when deciding what to implement in those chips the R&D departments have to make a lot of choices and this is why you can get different results.

Nov 01, 2012 at 09:28 AM

slungu
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p.2 #20 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

Exdsc wrote:
Why in this day when storage is very cheap have RAW compression in the first place?

The DSLR makers compress RAW file in their entry level so to not canablize their high-end cameras, why a high-end camera like Sony Nex-7 bascially throws away half of its RAW data in order to have small RAW files?

But more importantly, could it be that uncompressed RAW files from Sony Nex-7 would most likely suprass the IQ of high-end Sony DSLRs? Hard to say but it makes one wonder.

Why OM-D the M4/3 sensor is getting so much praise for its image quality? Well, for one...Show more →

Well, you might learn a little bit about bits and bytes instead of believing every conspiracy theory out there, but you as well might not, but this does not help the TO.
Fact is that it is pretty much low priority in choosing a system what type of raw format it uses, as long as it is supported by more than one RAW converter, in order to be able to have a choice.
So the choice would be based on IQ, lenses and ergonomics.

Nov 01, 2012 at 09:36 AM

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