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Archive 2012 · Good street gear, but not Leica

  
 
ultrapix
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p.2 #1 · Good street gear, but not Leica


6D + pancake even better...


Oct 28, 2012 at 04:15 AM
thrice
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p.2 #2 · Good street gear, but not Leica


^and above

Sorry, but a Canon FF DSLR for street?
I used to shoot with a 5D-II and they are very unwieldy and obvious for street shooting.



Oct 28, 2012 at 05:15 AM
ultrapix
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p.2 #3 · Good street gear, but not Leica


To me an M9/XPro or a small Dslr is pretty much the same; a different way would be a mirrorless with tilting screen,or similar.


Oct 28, 2012 at 05:41 AM
MayaTlab
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p.2 #4 · Good street gear, but not Leica


I personally think that size matters less than shutter sound and overall body language. Anything that requires you to put a camera up to your face will anyway induce a more conspicuous body language than shooting from the waist with a tilt screen for example.
I'm not saying it's an ideal camera, but since he's already got it, and the 40 isn't exactly expensive, I suggest trying that first, and if it doesn't work go for something else.
Strictly in terms of discretion, I don't find much difference between my rangefinder and a 5D III + 40mm. And its shutter sound is just as noisy / quiet (whether you look at it half-empty or half-full) in silent mode.
I still prefer rangefinders, but for other reasons.



Oct 28, 2012 at 06:16 AM
michael49
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p.2 #5 · Good street gear, but not Leica


MayaTlab wrote:
In addition to all the above, i'd suggest trying the new Canon 40mm on your 5D III. I'm not a big fan of DSLRs for street photography, but the 5D III isn't bad at all for that genre thanks to a combination of features. If size and weight is an issue, trying the 40 pancake may end up being a pretty good solution.



I've got the 40 2.8 pancake and it is a fantastic lens on my 5d2 - when i want "small" and ff thats what i bring - still, it's no where near as small as my oly om-d and pany 20mm 1.7 or 25 1.4 - when I want light that's what I go with over the 5d2.

40 2.8 on 5d2.....
http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/Other/Autumn-12/i-ZFF3ptX/0/XL/IMG4963-Edit-16-XL.jpg

http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/Other/Autumn-12/i-PT3Ft2F/0/XL/IMG4941-Edit-15-XL.jpg

http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/Other/Autumn-12/i-skNRkxB/0/XL/IMG4928-12-XL.jpg

http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/Other/Autumn-12/i-pWfnk3q/0/XL/IMG5108-Edit-15-XL.jpg

http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/Other/Autumn-12/i-Mndnps4/0/XL/IMG4895-13-XL.jpg




Oct 28, 2012 at 06:39 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.2 #6 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Light_pilgrim wrote:
So if I want to have smaller thing and a good 35 mm lens, optical viewfinder and a FF it is only Leica? That is interesting, they do not have any competition:-)


Since the digital M9 came out a few years ago, Leica has stood alone in the compact full frame camera area.

With the Sony RX1 being released in December, there is finally a full frame compact camera alternative to Leica but they are very different cameras once you get beyond the sensor size and overall camera size. If an optical finder remains a mandatory requirement, you can either use an accessory finder (even Leica users sometimes have to use one) on the RX1, or buy a Leica digital M.

In short the physical advantages of each:

Leica M9 (or M-E, or M-typ 240)
  1. interchangeable lens camera (still an advantage although diminished some even for the 35mm only photographer - lens choice and future lens portability)
  2. optical rangefinder focus (live-view/EVF focus available in the new typ-240 shipping next year)
  3. manual focus lenses provide depth of field and distance scale markings on lens


Sony RX1
  1. live-view camera; (only new M-typ 240 is live view)
  2. provides for both autofocus and manual focus (live-view with focus peaking via rear LCD and EVF)
  3. doesn't have to be held to the face to focus and compose (M typ 240 will offer this too)
  4. built in macro capability; M-typ 240 plus a helicoid required for equivalent
  5. smaller than the Leica cameras in every dimension
  6. lighter
  7. much better low noise high sensitivity performance than the M9, M-E; unknown how it stacks up against the new M-typ 240 - assume will be roughly comparable)
  8. you can buy 3 RX1 for the cost of a Leica M-typ 240 plus 35/2 Summicron


The least expensive route to a full frame 35mm lens equipped digital M is a used M9 with a CV 35mm or Zeiss 35/2 new or used. The new M-E (available now) follows up the price ladder. The M-typ 240 available next year will come in at ~$7,000 in the U.S., will probably have a waiting list initially, and then you'll need a lens. A Zeiss Biogon 35/2 is $1100; a Leica Summicon 35/2 is more than $3,000. Both have their fans.

The RX1 includes (fixed lens) what looks to be a very capable Zeiss Sonnar 35/2 design and is $2800 in the U.S., somewhat more to a lot more elsewhere depending on country and tax policies. A $450 accessory EVF will be a mandatory purchase for many.

The Leica has a history of being used for street work, but so do many electronic finder compact cameras. The X100 aside from its optical/electronic hybrid finder is a very similar camera to the RX1 in other respects; one can find it in the hands of plenty of street and documentary photographers. If the X100 can be successful in the street, so to can the RX1. If you are dead set on an optical finder but are willing to scale back your desire for a full frame camera, the APS-C based X100 is the next closest thing meeting your requirements except for lens speed.

The Leica and Sony cameras will be different to what you use today, and each are different to one another. Both types for some folks will be equally fun to shoot with. Each has particular advantages. Currently both types are the only full frame compact cameras out there. Differences except for relative size aside, it took more than three years for the first full frame compact camera alternative to Leica to arrive, who knows when the next alternative may show up and what it will offer.



Oct 28, 2012 at 08:37 AM
wolfloid
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p.2 #7 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Sorry, but a Canon FF DSLR for street? I used to shoot with a 5D-II and they are very unwieldy and obvious for street shooting.

I've used Leica M6's and a Canon 5DII with a CV 40/2 for a number of years now. I don't recognise any difference in the interface with people. Either way, it's pretty obvious that I have a camera and I'm taking a photograph. I minimise this by carrying the camera at my side until the moment I need it. Both cameras are so quick to use that I rarely miss what I want to take. Either way, it is not the model or type of camera that could make me miss.

Where I do see a very big difference is convenient portability. If I have a bag with me, there is no difference, but, I can carry a small tailor-made leather pouch on my belt that is perfect for the M6 plus a 40/2 Rokkor. It is then easy to slip in and out and I hardly notice that I'm carrying anything. Unfortunately, there is no sensible way to do this with the brick-shaped canon 5DII, which is also too heavy for wearing on the belt.

I am thinking along the lines of a Fuji X camera , perhaps the follow ups to both the X100 and the X pro-1. Having handled these and the Sony Nex 7, for me, there is no comparison. I immediately liked the optical finders of the Fuji X cameras, and felt that for street they would be snappy and fast. I really hated the EVF on the Sony (I wear glasses). It seemed far too contrasty, blocking out shadows and it lagged. You should try these out for yourself to find out what you prefer - to me there is a massive and obvious difference. The other issue with the Nex cameras is their lenses. The 24/1.8 Zeiss, which may be a nice lens, destroys the slim ergonomics of the cameras, and makes it a very awkward shape.

As to lenses. The X100 has what you want, albeit with a compromise on the maximum focus isolation possible. How important this is for you, only you can say. I'm also tempted by what many reviewers have claimed is the excellent fill flash ability of this camera, with its ability to synch at fast speeds and to be used well in harsh sunlight (I photograph a lot in India, where shadows often block out eyes in harsh sunlight). I am ultimately put off by examples of lens flare though, since I shoot a lot of contre jour. Maybe the next model will improve on this and other niggles with its speed of focus.

The Fuji road map has the 23/1.4 coming. It seems that this will be proportionately small when compared with the X pro-1 body size, and no doubt, given Fuji's track record will be an excellent lens. I look forward to trying it when it comes out. This lens will give you almost the level of focus isolation that FF Leica can give you. In my hands, I loved the ergonomics of the x pro 1, which would also fit in my belt pouch, if I select the right lens (possibly the 23/1.4, I'll have to see). It is light, has an easy grip, and direct aperture and speed ring control - I can see my settings before I bring it to my eye and begin to adjust as I raise it (heaven! even the Canon does not have this - only the Leicas).

The Sony RX 1 is also interesting, in that it is FF and will have aperture ring control. It is also going to be expensive, particularly if you want a viewfinder with it. The lens will be a 35/2, so in terms of focus isolation ability, the same as the Fuji 23/1.4. The Sony is fixed, like the X100, but if 35 is all you really want that may not matter. At least you wont be tempted by more lenses. I assume the quality of the camera/lens combination will be excellent, judging from the few samples so far. I will be looking at this as well, since I guess that with an optical finder, it could be very fast to use, if one can anticipate focus point accurately enough. It should also have excellent flash synch capability and will hopefully be set up well for fill flash.

For me there is one more choice: since I have a very good collection of Leica glass, including the 35/1.4 asph, I'll also be considering both the new Leica M, and even possibly the Monochrom. Buying just the body will not be such a leap up in price from the Sony Rx 1 plus optical viewfinder, especially if I later feel a need to also get the EVF. Plus, I think the Leica will be considerably more flexible and will be better built.

Someone also mentioned the tilt screens of the Olympus and the Nex cameras. Now these do seem to be really useful for street for the reasons they mention, particularly the touch screen on the Olympus, and it is a real pity that the cameras that interest me do not have this feature. I have therefore considered the Nex 6, but the EVF and lens ergonomics really put me off. If Sony brought out a SMALL fast 35/40 equivalent and I could use an additional optical finder without too much ergonomic disruption, then I might consider that as well. The Olympus seemed very fast and responsive in my hands, but again I disliked the EVF, though it seemed better than the Sony's. But putting an optical finder on top of the OM 5's finder lump, would look ridiculous and be an ergonomic accident waiting to happen. This, plus the increased depth of field that the smaller sensor induces, also makes me reluctant, notwithstanding the remarks on the CV 17/.95 lens.

So, for the moment I soldier on with what I've got.




Oct 28, 2012 at 09:10 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.2 #8 · Good street gear, but not Leica


MayaTlab wrote:
I personally think that size matters less than shutter sound and overall body language. Anything that requires you to put a camera up to your face will anyway induce a more conspicuous body language than shooting from the waist with a tilt screen for example.


Let's face it, if you are shooting a 35mm lens on full frame, depending on your photographic style you are generally going to be in fairly close to the action - people will always know you are using a camera unless your approach is surreptitious photography, cloak and dagger-like.

What seems to matter more is people's perceptions of who you may be and what your motivations are. Are you a photo-journalist? Or a tourist? Or just some gal or guy with a cheapo camera snagging a pic?

To me it seems the larger the camera and lens the less agreeable many subjects feel but the context matters tremendously too. In a tourist destination all there generally expect photography and put up with it as the price of admission. In their local neighbourhood, if it doesn't happen to be a tourist mecca, there is a different expectation.

At times, raising a camera to the face seems to be another line that when crossed gets people's anxiety levels rising. Yet if I raise a cell phone and frame in front of my face, most hardly pay any attention no matter what the context. Try it for yourself - take a big black camera with an imposing high quality optic out to a crowded area where cameras are not normally found and start shooting and notice how people react. Then put the camera away and shoot using a cell phone for a while. I see a difference all the time and it seems to me that the main trigger for anxiety is not just size but the act of raising the camera finder to your eye.

Quite coincidentally I'm involved in a discussion on this aspect of street technique elsewhere and had this very topic on my mind yesterday while out in search of an image. While shooting people interacting with a local art installation yesterday, no EVF, dumb tourist stance...



... An accident occurred just meters away. Of course I turned and walked over. I don't normally care for accidents as subjects but this corner is one my kids stand at every morning on their way to school and I wanted a record of the goings on to show them later.

I'd taken a few images with the EVF off, tourist style, $2,500 worth of camera and lens held out in front of me. Virtually no one took notice of me.

Then I put the EVF on as an experiment, knowing the probable reaction, and maybe even subconsciously I was banking on the reaction I got from the fire fighter.



I didn't really have time to explain my motivation or that I would preserve the dignity of those involved, in post if I had to. Had I taken the shot using the dumb-tourist stance, I doubt I'd have got any reaction from the fire fighter or from another passer-by who happened to be there to share her opinion of me just as I raised the camera to my eye. Granted, it's an accident scene and people's empathy levels for the victims are running high so I clearly was an intruder even though it is my neighbourhood.

I apologize for going on at length about this as this discussion is way off topic even though it naturally developed.



Oct 28, 2012 at 09:46 AM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.2 #9 · Good street gear, but not Leica


can the dp2m be set to hyperfocus?


Oct 28, 2012 at 09:53 AM
chez
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p.2 #10 · Good street gear, but not Leica


thrice wrote:
^and above

Sorry, but a Canon FF DSLR for street?
I used to shoot with a 5D-II and they are very unwieldy and obvious for street shooting.


There are two approaches to street shooting, being stealth or engaging with the people. I like the latter as it really makes you feel you are a part of the street rather than a distant observer.



Oct 28, 2012 at 09:58 AM
joanlvh
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p.2 #11 · Good street gear, but not Leica


michaelwatkins, thanks for comparision of M9 and coming RX!.


Oct 28, 2012 at 10:48 AM
millsart
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p.2 #12 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Ultra shallow DoF and street photography seem sort of at odds with each other in my mind. Not only would the keeper rate be pretty low due to the shallow DoF and focus errors, but you also would be missing lot of the subjects enviromental context if you totally blurred it away with an ultra fast lens.

I certainly enjoy shallow DoF as a tool, but when I'm shoot "street" type shots, I usually do so at f5.6 or so, because I like the enviroment the subject is in sharp as well, its that context that makes the shot for me.

Its whats what its "street" and not portraiture. You can do portraits of random people on the street and thats well and good, but showing a subject and the contrast to their enviroment, irony, patterns etc, is what makes for good street photography.

The current internet forum trend of "street" photography always seems to be random shots of strangers taken with a 600mm superzoom, which I think is frankly voyaer like garbage at best, papparzai stalking at worst.

Or, for those not too timid to have to shoot from a block away, its shots of someones back as they are walking away, again, whats the point ?

All shots like that say to me is that someone wants the hipster cred of calling themselves a "street" photog because its he current hot trend in photography but they lack the nerve to actually engauge subjects or blantantly capture a subject. Both are NOT easily things to do mind you!

Really though, good street photography can be done with darn near any camera.

The whole need for ninja stealth, blacked out logos' and all that other internet BS is just so silly.

If people spent 1/10th the time they do thinking about how to black out their camera and shoot around corners with a special lens etc, and instead put a little time into getting comfortable actually engauging subjects their photography would improve greatly.

Though to each his own though, for those what like to shoot women eating lunch on park benches for 100 yards away and most on DPR, more power to them. I just don't think its "street' any more than taking a picture of your backyard at noon is real landscape photography.

Good landscape photography takes work, planning, getting up early and hiking to capture the best light. Its not just shooting from the parking lot during horrible midday light because you slept in. Just as street photography isn't sleeping bums, or shots of peoples backs as they walk home from work



Oct 28, 2012 at 11:00 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.2 #13 · Good street gear, but not Leica


millsart wrote:
Really though, good street photography can be done with darn near any camera.


+1.



Oct 28, 2012 at 11:47 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #14 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Blad with a waist level finder ...
(Now, you're an "artist".)

+1 @ millsart, michaelwatkins & MayaTlab

There is a psychology involved with "street" and people in general. Whether it is conventional portrait or street, you're dealing with people and being able to integrate the aspects associated with people can make more difference than the gear involved ... yet people DO respond to gear, location, context and body language.

I take out my FF DSLR and longer glass to a local air show and people go "Wow, nice camera" or "Wow, that's some lens." (Sigma 100-300/4, no biggie to us ) with a degree of admiration/respect. I go to the city park with it and people look at me with suspicion & contempt, like I'm up to no good. Switch lenses to a macro or wide, crawl on the ground to get my composition and suddenly I'm an artist with people asking me what I'm taking pictures of.

I've had the cops (city, county & state responded, as well as undercover detective) called on me for using it in Walmart parking lot because some lady said I was taking pics of her (as if). I've even had people in my own neighborhood call the cops when I was carrying my 120-600, dressed in camo (walking back from Bambi stuff in the nearby woods), but that one at least makes a little sense.

Point being, I don't have good people skills for engaging in street or portraiture ... best I can figure, it is because people see me as being "too serious" and that degree of "seriousness" makes them uneasy in settings where people don't expect such seriousness.

My kids ... otoh, can take all the pics they want, anytime, anyplace (virtually) with their cell phones or P&S cameras. They just smile and look cool/popular (i.e. benign) and it suddenly is okay that they take your picture ... meanwhile I get the cops called on me for taking pictures of a tennis ball or a car (I'm close to a dozen calls so far).

It's about people (and the vibe you project / they perceive) ... not gear. Of course, if you are shooting people with a 600mm lens, you're vibe usually doesn't project quite that far.

IMO, if you want to shoot street ... projecting a good vibe, can be more important than having certain (i.e. uber-stealth) gear.





Oct 28, 2012 at 11:53 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.2 #15 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Good analysis, RustyBug. I too look quite serious, perhaps to hide my natural timidity, even arrogant sometimes, and that's no good for street. Most people would give me a non approving look when I photograph them, but luckily people where I live are non confrontational, and would usually let it be. I have a friend, on the other hand, who has great people skills. While his photography sucks, he takes great street shots because he has a big smile, and engages people immediately and systematically. People just can't say no to such character.


Oct 28, 2012 at 12:54 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #16 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Thanks Ed,

+1 @ cultural differences having significant impact here as well. It was always far easier for me to take pictures of people abroad, than it was around home. I guess they always just thought "another stupid tourist with a camera" ...
(i.e. benign)



Oct 28, 2012 at 12:58 PM
Gunzorro
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p.2 #17 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Light pilgrim -- What I'm reading in the responses is that for full frame you are best off using DSLR, unless you buy into the Leica or Sony systems. Using a DSLR admittedly sacrifices some stealth, but that doesn't seem insurmountable obstacle.

I like the earlier suggestion that you get the smaller 6D with its silent operation mode and use a small prime lens. The 40 STM is good, but not fast. The old EF 35/2 is still a pretty great lens for what you are doing. The old EF 28/2.8 isn't bad either. Now Canon has the new 24 and 28 IS lenses, that could be great if you need wider angles. The 35/1.4L is a little bigger, but still should be a very practical lens on the 6D.

Unless you are willing to pay big money for a Leica set-up, I'd keep in direction your are going, but reduce size and weight.

I don't do much photography of individuals in public without their permission -- otherwise it's quite confrontational to do so in Southern California. In asking permission, the larger gear might actually be an advantage to get cooperation. Who knows?



Oct 28, 2012 at 01:14 PM
wolfloid
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p.2 #18 · Good street gear, but not Leica


I like the earlier suggestion that you get the smaller 6D with its silent operation mode and use a small prime lens. The 40 STM is good, but not fast. The old EF 35/2 is still a pretty great lens for what you are doing. The old EF 28/2.8 isn't bad either. Now Canon has the new 24 and 28 IS lenses, that could be great if you need wider angles. The 35/1.4L is a little bigger, but still should be a very practical lens on the 6D.

All of these are very good choices, but as stated above I tend towards the CV 40/2, which while not as small as Canon's own new 40/2.8, is also fairly slight. I use a Maxwell screen and find that it just snaps into focus easily and accurately, and since I only trust the centre focus point of the 5DII means that I don't have to recompose after focusing. For me it is just a smidgen faster this way, and not so immediately obvious to others where my main interest lies.



Oct 28, 2012 at 01:28 PM
frezeiss
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p.2 #19 · Good street gear, but not Leica


Street photography is more about capturing that moment in the right place in the right spot. So its more like 80% photographer and less gear. I've been doing it lately and it boils down to either zone focus technique and or the fast AF touch shutter cameras. Cameras like the OMD, NEX 5R could do both this feature nicely.

Currently I'm waiting for the 5R to be available at where I live so I can sell my 5N for the 5R, get the Zeiss 24 1.8 and be done for the moment. At Q1 2013, I'll purchase the Zeiss 32 1.8. This combo should be quite small and produces excellent IQ.

I wouldn't worry too much about having a 1.4 DOF as I rarely shoot wide open for street photography. A bit more to the f/2.8-f/11 range. Wide open shooting is usually only useful in street portraits.

As for OVF, the EVF and tilting LCD is a godsend for street photography



Oct 28, 2012 at 09:16 PM
freaklikeme
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p.2 #20 · Good street gear, but not Leica


RustyBug wrote:
Thanks Ed,

+1 @ cultural differences having significant impact here as well. It was always far easier for me to take pictures of people abroad, than it was around home. I guess they always just thought "another stupid tourist with a camera" ...
(i.e. benign)


So the secret is to always look like a tourist.

I think I'll sew Canadian flags on my camera bags and get a Maple Leafs hat. I can be as polite and friendly as any Torontonian, as long as I really focus on it. And I've got hundreds of "Kids in the Hall" quotes at the ready.



Oct 28, 2012 at 09:47 PM
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