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Archive 2012 · Medium-Large Format tips

carstenw
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p.11 #1 · Medium-Large Format tips

Yes, they are no good any more, you can throw that film out. Film is light-sensitive, and it doesn't stop being light-sensitive until it has been developed, so by looking at it, you have exposed it to so much light that your photos are "overwritten". I sometimes forget that some people don't have any experience with film at all. I grew up with the stuff and take some things for granted.

Since this is a tips thread, here are the proper steps to load a film in a Rolleiflex 6008. You know most of this already, I am just posting everything for completeness and future reference.

Here is my beauty, and a roll of 120 Tri-X:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-01.jpg

To remove the back, you need to slide the film back slider to the top, as shown. Then press the opposing black buttons to remove the back (the red ones open the back, even on the camera):

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-02.jpg

When you open it with the red buttons, note how the insert sits in it, and note the two symbols on the right hand side. There is a fat symbol and a skinny symbol, showing where the film should be (fat), and the take-up spool (thin):

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-03.jpg

When you take the insert out, there is no need to move the take-up spool, as on a Hasselblad, because it is symmetrical and can be inserted either way. The way this is sitting on the table is the same way up it was sitting in the film back:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-04.jpg

Insert the roll of film like this. Note the symbol on the side showing that the film should be pulled across the bottom, not the top:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-05.jpg

Pull the film across, you stick the film end through a slot on the take-up spool, hold it while you turn the geared wheel with your fingers, until it is firm:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-06.jpg

Flipping the insert over, keep winding the same way until the arrow on the film lines up with the arrow on the insert (different films have different arrows, but it should be easy to spot):

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-07.jpg

Flip the insert back over again, and lay it into the back, noting the fat and thin ends should line up with the symbols we saw before:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-08.jpg

Gently press the insert down until the film pops up as shown:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-09.jpg

Close the back gently until it clicks. If it doesn't close, probably the insert has been put in the wrong way. Then put the back on the camera and slide the film back slider to the bottom, as shown:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/howto/6008-film-10.jpg

The film is in, the back is on, and the camera is almost ready to shoot. The first time you try to shoot, the camera will wind the film from S (start) to 1, and you will be able to see the upcoming numbers to the right of the 1. It will go to 12, and when you have made that shot, the film is finished, and you won't be able to make any more shots.

When you have shot the film, the camera will roll it to the end. Go somewhere away from bright light. You slide the slider back to the top, and then you can remove the back if you like, or just open it on the camera. Careful not to let the film get all loose. Pull the end tight, and fold the tip of it back, and then lick the end of the little glue strip, and glue the roll closed. Now put it somewhere dark and keep it dark until it is being developed. Putting it back in the carton and taping it closed is good, or you can get special plastic containers for this from film supply stores.

I would send away the first couple of rolls, but if you find that you enjoy the whole thing, then maybe think about trying to develop your rolls yourself, which can be quite fun. For the complete experience, you could set up a darkroom, but this is a huge step up in dedication and complexity, and it takes space and time. I would love to have one, but it isn't practical right now for me. Maybe in the future.

Edited on Mar 25, 2013 at 02:29 PM · View previous versions

Mar 24, 2013 at 07:01 AM

carstenw
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p.11 #2 · Medium-Large Format tips

If you find all this to be a hassle, then maybe have some fun with Polaroids for a while while learning your ropes with the camera's exposure metering and controls, and learning how to focus properly every time. Then when you are familiar with everything, try film again.

Mar 24, 2013 at 07:15 AM

a.RodriguezPix
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p.11 #3 · Medium-Large Format tips

Thanl you!!

Mar 24, 2013 at 07:54 AM

goosemang
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p.11 #4 · Medium-Large Format tips

well, finally got my first roll back. got 7 pictures that are ok out of 12, and maybe two that i really like. here are two that i kinda like, because certain subjects don't get posted online:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8589400575_d08ab1a294_c.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8225/8589402329_9120c1b4da_c.jpg

anyways i like the results and am going to dig into film further. i'm SHOCKED at how half way decent my exposures are since i'm metering with a friggin' iphone!

Mar 25, 2013 at 02:11 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #5 · Medium-Large Format tips

Mamiya C220 with 80/2.8? I like that first one a lot!

Mar 25, 2013 at 02:25 PM

goosemang
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p.11 #6 · Medium-Large Format tips

yes, that's the one. i like the camera but the viewfinder is awful in low light. i'm like shoving my face in there just to see, nevermind focusing. any idea if this is normal?

the 2nd pic is a great illustration of how this is going to differ from digital for me. those flowers were actually in bloom in the winter, nice and yellow, and digitally i know i can adjust the luminance to make them standout. but not here! so the pic came out kinda flat, but that's ok. lots to learn. happy to learn it.

Mar 25, 2013 at 02:59 PM

goosemang
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p.11 #7 · Medium-Large Format tips

while i'm thinking of it: anybody have good info/a good web page that discusses push/pull processing?

i'm going on a trip in a few weeks and will only bring film. i do quite a bit of low light work and am wondering if the way to approach this is to just shoot like delta 3200 all the time, or perhaps get something else and push process. any thoughts?

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:02 PM

Zaitz
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p.11 #8 · Medium-Large Format tips

If most is low light and you are using medium format and you enjoy that look then I'd use a film with a legitimately higher sensitivity like Delta 3200. Push processing won't net you much, if any, more shadow detail. And you won't be gaining a stop or two with a speed increasing developer.

I personally wouldn't limit it to one film but if it's all low light work then I guess it won't matter much.

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:08 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #9 · Medium-Large Format tips

goosemang wrote:
yes, that's the one. i like the camera but the viewfinder is awful in low light. i'm like shoving my face in there just to see, nevermind focusing. any idea if this is normal?

the 2nd pic is a great illustration of how this is going to differ from digital for me. those flowers were actually in bloom in the winter, nice and yellow, and digitally i know i can adjust the luminance to make them standout. but not here! so the pic came out kinda flat, but that's ok. lots to learn. happy to learn it.

If you want to manipulate colours/tones with B&W film, you will need to use different kinds of films, or use filters. To make yellow flowers lighter in B&W, use a yellow filter (which will also make blue darker).

I don't know the Mamiya C220 and its focusing screen, but if you look at the usual suspects (Maxwell, Brightscreen, ...), then you could see if there is an aftermarket screen for it, or maybe Mamiya even make something themselves. It is not unusual for the older cameras to have dark screens.

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:11 PM

goosemang
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p.11 #10 · Medium-Large Format tips

edit: to zaitz

i'm looking at your post and realizing i need to understand this a bit more before i can really process all that you're saying.

could you perhaps explain the chart? or point me to a page that details it?

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:14 PM

goosemang
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p.11 #11 · Medium-Large Format tips

carstenw wrote:
If you want to manipulate colours/tones with B&W film, you will need to use different kinds of films, or use filters. To make yellow flowers lighter in B&W, use a yellow filter (which will also make blue darker).

I don't know the Mamiya C220 and its focusing screen, but if you look at the usual suspects (Maxwell, Brightscreen, ...), then you could see if there is an aftermarket screen for it, or maybe Mamiya even make something themselves. It is not unusual for the older cameras to have dark screens.

thanks. jeez i'm gonna have to think with film, huh? no applying my filters after the fact.

my wife will be happy to know this will require me to buy a whole new set of gears

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:16 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #12 · Medium-Large Format tips

That chart is based on the zone system, the most accurate and complete way to manipulate film in development and printing. It is also the most complex though, and you can get by with less knowledge to start with.

The short answer is that most films are best very close to their rated speed, perhaps +/- 1 or 2 stops, with a few exceptions. Some films benefit from overdevelopment, some perhaps from underdevelopment, but rarely by all that much, and push and pull processing are not usually used to make coarse changes, like boosting film speed by several stops . Thus Zaitz' recommendation to shoot a film close to what you need. I would also not use only one film, too limiting. Does the C220 have replaceable film backs?

Try bringing some more moderate films, and learning how to shoot at lower shutter speeds with no movement. With many medium format film cameras this is possible, partly due to the mass of the cameras.

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:18 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #13 · Medium-Large Format tips

goosemang wrote:
thanks. jeez i'm gonna have to think with film, huh? no applying my filters after the fact.

my wife will be happy to know this will require me to buy a whole new set of gears

What you learn with film will often also be useful for digital, so don't despair

A few filters should get you started, maybe yellow, orange, red and polarising. If you shoot colour, you might want to add some tungsten filters and such, since you can't change the white balance easily after the fact, so moving between inside and outside will net you some very yellow insides, or some excessively blue outsides

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:21 PM

goosemang
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p.11 #14 · Medium-Large Format tips

carstenw wrote:
That chart is based on the zone system, the most accurate and complete way to manipulate film in development and printing. It is also the most complex though, and you can get by with less knowledge to start with.

The short answer is that most films are best very close to their rated speed, perhaps +/- 1 or 2 stops, with a few exceptions. Some films benefit from overdevelopment, some perhaps from underdevelopment, but rarely by all that much, and push and pull processing are not usually used to make coarse changes, like boosting film speed by several stops . Thus...Show more →

i understood that those were the zones, what was confusing was the whole expansion/contraction thing. i didn't realize push/pull impacted.... dynamic range (?)... in this way.

now you mention that push/pull isn't usually used to make changes like boosting film speed by several stops. why would you do it otherwise? just for the effect it has on the way the finished image looks? in my mind, i think "oh, i can get an iso 800 film and shoot it at 3200 by pushing it two stops". i understand having the right film around, but what about the lack of options at 3200? i.e. there are like 2 films that come at 3200... what if i wanted a color film or something? or would that just end up looking terrible?

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:26 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #15 · Medium-Large Format tips

Yes, dynamic range is changed too. The best books for this, IMO, if you really want to start right in with the zone system, are the Ansel Adams trilogy books. You will need book two, The Negative, for this stuff, but all three are good, so maybe just buy the set.

About pushing/pulling, some films change character, and this might be desired. Two stops is probably okay, but 3-4 could lose you a lot. Definitely test it out before using it for real.

Note that you can't just change how much you push by in the middle of the roll, so if you start shooting at +2, then you are stuck with that for the film. One advantage for interchangeable film back, or shooting large format

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:34 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #16 · Medium-Large Format tips

Btw, you need to compare film specs and test the look, to decide what makes sense. An ISO 800 film pushed two stops might not have much less dynamic range than a true ISO 3200 film, but the character will probably be different. People spend a lot of time finding favourite films. Tri-X is a favourite of many, but T-MAX is also well worth looking at, as well as some Ilford films, and Fuji, although the latter probably more for colour.

Btw, it would be unusual to need ISO 3200 film for most purposes. Some people do use it a lot, but ISO 400 film is by far more common, and ISO 100 or less if on a tripod. Medium format has a lot of resolution, but not so much that you can throw tonnes of it away with noise and see no effect... If you want to shoot very fast films, or push process, you might need to invest in some neutral density filters as well, for when you have too much light.

Mar 25, 2013 at 03:38 PM

a.RodriguezPix
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p.11 #17 · Medium-Large Format tips

carstenw wrote:
Yes, they are no good any more, you can throw that film out. Film is light-sensitive, and it doesn't stop being light-sensitive until it has been developed, so by looking at it, you have exposed it to so much light that your photos are "overwritten". I sometimes forget that some people don't have any experience with film at all. I grew up with the stuff and take some things for granted.

Since this is a tips thread, here are the proper steps to load a film in a Rolleiflex 6008. You know most of this already, I am just posting everything...Show more →

I just want to take a moment to thank carstenw very much, for this comprehensive, and thorough write up, that he spent time doing, in order to aid a fellow Rollei 6008 film user, and film novice, to the extreme!
This was and, is a life saver, as in the time it saved me, and the possible injury to my camera! This was all done in free will, and at the expense of cartenw's time, and patients! Thank you very much, for aiding me, and hopefully many others in time to come, you are truly a very kind soul! -Americo.Rodriguez

Mar 26, 2013 at 01:53 AM

carstenw
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p.11 #18 · Medium-Large Format tips

Ah, no worries, I have been rude often enough too

I like helping people when I can.

I hope that you stick with it now that it isn't exactly what you thought/hoped. You can get some great results with this setup.

By the way, my first name is Carsten, W is the first letter of my last name.

Mar 26, 2013 at 03:14 AM

goosemang
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p.11 #19 · Medium-Large Format tips

carstenw wrote:
Yes, dynamic range is changed too. The best books for this, IMO, if you really want to start right in with the zone system, are the Ansel Adams trilogy books. You will need book two, The Negative, for this stuff, but all three are good, so maybe just buy the set.

About pushing/pulling, some films change character, and this might be desired. Two stops is probably okay, but 3-4 could lose you a lot. Definitely test it out before using it for real.

Note that you can't just change how much you push by in the middle of the roll, so if...Show more →

thanks. i grabbed a used copy of The Negative off amazon...

Mar 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM

Zaitz
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p.11 #20 · Medium-Large Format tips

goosemang wrote:
i understood that those were the zones, what was confusing was the whole expansion/contraction thing. i didn't realize push/pull impacted.... dynamic range (?)... in this way.

now you mention that push/pull isn't usually used to make changes like boosting film speed by several stops. why would you do it otherwise? just for the effect it has on the way the finished image looks? in my mind, i think "oh, i can get an iso 800 film and shoot it at 3200 by pushing it two stops". i understand having the right film around, but what about the lack of options at...Show more →
Yup, Carsten pretty much explained it. The chart shows how pushing (increased development time) affects the zones in a photo. When you are pushing film you are underexposing the film and increasing development time. When you underexpose film your shadows get pushed further down perhaps to zone 1 or 2 or worse. When you increase development time you risk overdeveloping the highlights and gaining next to nothing with the shadows. The chart just shows how little increasing development time does to the densities in the shadows and low mid-tones. Pushed film just increases the contrast of the scene where your shadows can get blocked and your highlights might be unrecoverable. Generally this is in regards to photo paper as regaining dense highlights with a good scanner is an easier option than it is in the dark room.

In the chart you can see that even at n+2 zone III isn't moving quite up to zone iv. If the 'properly' metered scene had important shadow details on zone III and you were actually pushing the film two stops then those details won't ever be recoverable on the negative because you underexposed the scene by two stops and pushed those details down to zone 1. On the flip side you can see at n+2 how quickly the upper mid tones and highlights become excessively dense.

I think most films rated at 3200 and even 1600 are actually close to 1000 or thereabouts in film speed. But it's still quite a bit more sensitive than Trix or HP5 will ever be. Using a speed increasing developer won't even net you a true stop from what I have seen. You may get a great image by using that method, I'm not saying you can't or won't. But I would rather expose the shadows correctly if I can and develop accordingly. I especially hate thin negatives. I generally err on the side of overexposure and I still have yet to have a negative be too dense for my (relatively crappy) Epson 4990.

I think a lot of people push film because they either enjoy the look and contrast or just simply don't know how little the shadows are gaining with the increased development. For color you might try Portra 800. The Portra family offers great latitude generally even with underexposure. In medium format the grain looks great I think, much like Delta 3200.

Mar 26, 2013 at 09:06 PM

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