p.1 #1 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
Hi,
With the upcoming new Leica M and Sony RX1, I am wondering if I should change my gear …
I do mostly landscape and portraits (no subjects that move quicker than a running child). Mostly natural light, sometimes a fill-in flash. I seldom use very high ISO settings (max 3200).
I am no professional and do not use my gear on daily basis. I do appreciate image quality and lens quality.
I print at 11.69 x 16.53 inches and seldom at 16.53 x 23.39 inches.
I use a Nikon D700 with 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 85/1.4 and 70-200AFS (BTW the latter I want to trade in for the Zeiss 135 F/2 ZF2 if I stay in Nikon). I also have the Leica R Summicron 90 F/2 adpated for Nikon (Leitax). I have sold my Zeiss ZF 21 because I seldom feld the need for ultrawide (I prefer panorama).
In general I am pleased with the image quality I can get although some more pixels (24 MPIX would be ideal) would mean a step up in IQ I guess for my largest prints. Sometimes I would like some more dynamic range or some more shadow detail.
I adore the look with Leica lenses but manual focussing a manual lens with the Nikon D700 is not that easy I find with moving subjects (even spontaneous portraits). Maybe I do not practice enough.
I also find the Nikon D700 quite big. On the other hand I like the build quality.
The Leica M has always been my 'dream' camera because of the IQ one can reach with it, not only sharpness but general look. Zeiss lenses give another look but with people I find it sometimes a little bit harsh in comparison with Leica. For people the look one can reach with a summilux 80 or summicron 90 I cannot create with my Nikon (or Zeiss) lenses.
The compactness of the Leica and also the silence of the shutter were other reasons to like it.
The drawback to buy a Leica M was honestly only the price. When it would be 2000 Euros with a 50 mm F/2 I would have it already .
Also I do not know if I will be able to focus it quickly and if I could give it to my wife if she wants to take a picture (exposure I could probably explain, but focussing maybe one should be trained to do it?)
I could buy the new M with one simple lens (a 50 summicron or even zeiss/voightländer but then I loose the Leica look) but to finace it I have to sell all my other gear (maybe I should keep the summicorn 90 to be adapted on the M). Later on I can maybe buy some other lenses but the F/1.4 lenses probably will be out of my league. Will I be happy is off course the question… Testing is not really easy here since I do not know any users.
Another option is to sell my least used lens, the 70-200 and to buy the Sony RX1 for when I want to work quietly and be unobtrusive. It could be the poor mans M with AF so everybody can use it. It is only 35 mm but the smart teleconvertor function (I guess basically cropping) makes portraits possible at lower resolution (when I do not have my Nikon with me).
p.1 #3 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
If you want to sell the 70-200 anyway (Leica or RX1), then why not do so, and then try to pick up a used RX1, once people start selling them. If you are happy with that, keep it, otherwise sell it again at minimum loss and move to Leica. I would say that you should try the Leica first though. Some people really can't stand focusing a rangefinder, and I am not sure it will be any better than the D700 for manually focusing on a moving target.
p.1 #4 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
Rent first.
Once I played with a Leica it was over for me. I already hated monster autofocus SLRs though, if you actually like that shooting setup a Leica may be hard to swallow.
I can tell you that for me, accurate framing, MFDs closer than .7 meters and manual focus are simply not problems. I have a separate camera for those problems.
Honestly in your shoes I would probably get the ME and a 50/1.4 ASPH over the M 240 and the Cron v5; but that reflects my taste in lenses and my belief in CCD as a technology.
p.1 #5 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
Selling all your current gear in favour of moving to a rangefinder system with witch you as yet have no experience with is a pretty radical switch, particularly as you've come to know your current DSLR system very well over some period of time. Then again radical change can sometimes be fun, exciting, and present new potential opportunities.
+1 on renting first, especially if you consider the Leica manual-focus only solution further, given your comments about following movement being a challenge with manual focus lenses. Your wife will also have a chance to see how she gets on with it before committing large dollars to a dream system.
p.1 #6 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
I think it depends on how important the f/1.4 of the lenses in your current DSLR kit is to your style. If you use that a lot for shallow depth of field looks, or lower light situations, then you might miss it if you can't find or afford suitable M system replacements.
For landscape photography, I assume that means a lot of stopped down work? What could work is determining which focal lengths you prefer for people photography and find a Leica equivalent for those. For the other situations, you could start with something from Zeiss instead to see if it meets your needs. Keeping your 90 Cron R series lens might make senses because you can use live view on the M and it's a somewhat tricky focal length to focus accurately by rangefinder anyways.
Once you get used to it, rangefinder focusing can be very fast and is very accurate if the system is properly calibrated, at least for stationary subjects. I find it much easier to focus than trying to do so manually with wide angle lenses on a DSLR through the viewfinder. Of course moving subjects are more difficult, but can also be done with some practice, though if it's kids running around unpredictably.... In such instances I find using a wide angle, zone focusing and stopping down a fair amount works. AF is a much better solution if you want to shoot wide open and a bit longer. As for your wife, you just have to explain the concept of aligning two 'ghost' images in the rangefinder patch. I've found most people I've handed the camera to have had little difficulty with the concept.
I really enjoy the ability to carry around a high quality, FF camera with several lenses in a small bag that otherwise would only hold a 70-200 lens. The new M will also be the first FF camera that will be nearly universal in lens compatibility, allowing for some interesting possibilities in building a system around alt/legacy lenses.
It might be worth checking with a local Leica dealer to see if they have any demo days coming up so you can at least give the system a try. It appears there are a few Leica Boutiques in Belgium, as well as a Leica Store in Lille. Sometimes Leica runs one-day events where you can shoot for a few hours with a camera and a few lenses, though for the new M I expect this won't be the case until sometime next year.
p.1 #7 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
If you do decide to go M, you might consider the ZM 50/1.5 Sonnar, which is great for people shooting, small, fast and relatively inexpensive. Stopped down, it sharpens up nicely, although probably not in the league of the 50 Summicron or ZM 50/2 edge to edge.
p.1 #8 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
Just get your dream camera. If I have done that since the beginning, I would have saved tens of thousands of dollars endlessly switching systems. Now that I have finally got a Leica M9, I really regret not having done it earlier.
p.1 #9 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
edwardkaraa wrote:
Just get your dream camera. If I have done that since the beginning, I would have saved tens of thousands of dollars endlessly switching systems. Now that I have finally got a Leica M9, I really regret not having done it earlier.
Wow, have you lost tens of thousands of dollars switching systems in the last 3 years? Yikes! I usually recoup enough from selling gear to loose just enough money to be considered a fair rental cost.
My problem is, although M9 prices are getting more reasonable, the new M is my real dream camera, so I'm thinking about going all of the way next year, although, in reality, if I can't do good work with what I have, it certainly isn't the camera's fault.
Oct 08, 2012 at 12:31 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.1 #10 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
I love Leica. If you shoot film you could pick up an old screw mount IIIf to see if you like rf. Older lenses are often quite good. My 1950 Summaron is extremely sharp although it has rather bad flare. Lenses from the 70's and 80's might be very good. Often optical formulas were not changed for many years and may not have changed from then until now or recently. Laney's "Leica Collectors Guide" is great to figure out the Leica system.
p.1 #11 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
AmbientMike wrote:
I love Leica. If you shoot film you could pick up an old screw mount IIIf to see if you like rf. Older lenses are often quite good. My 1950 Summaron is extremely sharp although it has rather bad flare. Lenses from the 70's and 80's might be very good. Often optical formulas were not changed for many years and may not have changed from then until now or recently. Laney's "Leica Collectors Guide" is great to figure out the Leica system.
True. In fact, he could probably by an old non-Leica brand fixed-lens, film rangefinder for pennies to see if the rangefinder things is for him. My old Olympus SP is a great little camera with an excellent lens.
p.1 #12 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
If you were to go the film route first, I think a Leica with a similar rangefinder/viewfinder experience to the digital M system would be the way to go... so maybe an M3, etc... Though is it much of a price difference from a user condition M8? Benefit of the M8 would be instant results and getting a feel for the Leica digital workflow, including the frustrations. But that said, it would make you more appreciate the 'upgrade' to the M, assuming it lives up to its on-paper expectations.
p.1 #13 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
rscheffler wrote:
If you were to go the film route first, I think a Leica with a similar rangefinder/viewfinder experience to the digital M system would be the way to go... so maybe an M3, etc... Though is it much of a price difference from a user condition M8? Benefit of the M8 would be instant results and getting a feel for the Leica digital workflow, including the frustrations. But that said, it would make you more appreciate the 'upgrade' to the M, assuming it lives up to its on-paper expectations.
I'm not so sure, as far as film cameras are concerned, since we're really talking about mostly build quality differences, because these cameras are so simple. At the end of the day, I think an old, cheaper film rangefinder would let the OP decide if he likes the essence of it all, since, as you mentioned, a film M isn't exactly a cheap experiment, either.
p.1 #14 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
Personally, Reading your story it looks to me u can't really afford it. Being only able to buy one f2 lens and trading a bunch of 1.4 lenses in for that doesn't look like the best solution for your photography.
The only reason to do get into the M with a tight budget I.M.O. is a real obvious point in doing so.
The better lenses isn't really such a pont since there are so many great lenses for SLR out there as well. Just wait for the new zeiss primes like the 55/1.4 and u have a great combo together with a D800E. Or go for the leica R primes if u really want a leica look.
Size wise the M indeed is smaller, but still its quite a heavy body. The D600 with small prime isn't that big either.
The M being a rangefinder is to me the only real reason why to make such a decision. And thats the only point I don't see in your story.
So I would go for the cheaper option. Sell the 70-200 and go for an used M8. Get a nice real leica lens with it and use if for some time to find out if the rangefinder suits u. If so sell the D700 and lenses and upgrade to a M9 or M with more leica lenses. If not, just sell the M8 without big loss and never look back.
I have seen so many people loving leica's, but being not happy with the system when they finally had one. Selling all your DSLR gear in advance seems to dangerous to me.
Can tell personally that its a great camera I have had it calibrate and cleaned last year. Leica also refitted all the buttons so they worked like new.
BTW, no connection to the seller, only hope my M8 finds a good home
Oct 08, 2012 at 02:00 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.1 #16 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
I mostly agree Bijltje but I am getting a feeling op should get a Leica.
50/1.4 M that was current as of the writing of my 92 collectors guide was the same design since 1961. 50/1 1976. If older lenses can be adapted or will work with this camera that would help with cost.
p.1 #17 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
Bijltje wrote:
The M being a rangefinder is to me the only real reason why to make such a decision. And thats the only point I don't see in your story.
Agreed. Sure, the M lenses are top notch, but it's really about wanting to shoot the rangefinder experience, and giving up an entire DSLR setup to experiment with this is a risky idea. That's why I recommend a cheaper, film rangefinder to get the vibe of it all.
The M isn't going to give magically better results than the D700. It's just a different way to use a camera.
Oct 08, 2012 at 02:02 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.1 #18 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
I had to switch camera systems after buying IIIf. The feel was so nice. I didn't feel I could afford Leica and I like macro so I. Went OM. Great move.
Oct 08, 2012 at 02:11 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.1 #19 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
p.1 #20 · sell D700+lenses for new Leica M or keep it and buy a sony RX1
Cost aside, what Frank is really facing is a completely different working arrangement given he needs to sell all to move to the dream system, rather than add a new system to what already works for him. As Douglas says, that's risky. Might be the right move, but risky until you know for sure.
Losing autofocus isn't a trade off if autofocus doesn't work well to begin with, but losing fast autofocus with fast lenses on a full frame DSLR might be a trade off that really matters. What else goes missing? DOF preview? Live view?
Ruthlessly, honestly, and unemotionally assess and reassess why you want the dream system and measure the dream system up against the type of photography and subjects you shoot today. Will the new system allow you to do all that you currently do, and more? Or will it force changes in how you work and what you shoot? What are the trade-offs? Do they matter? What won't you be able to do that you depend on or enjoy doing now?
+1 again on renting the dream system and using the heck out of it. Hopefully that experience will help you sort out reality from the dream and determine what really matters.
With a nod to Edward and FPF if you do determine that a digital rangefinder is the right dream system for you, hang on until you can afford to do it right. You (probably) won't be happy with half measures such as using - as many of us do - rangefinder lenses on live view cameras like NEX or GXR.
I have had it calibrate and cleaned last year. Leica also refitted all the buttons so they worked like new.