p.10 #1 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
Pixel Perfect wrote:
As I posted before, Canon had no interest in a very clever solution to increase DR, that was produced by our company, which is a Research division of Canon Inc. The idea was patented and won an award and would have worked with existing sensor tech.
So, Canon has the capability but choose to ignore it. Sigh...
Obviously, the current management needs a major shake-up.
p.10 #2 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
WebDog wrote:
Then we have the issue of producing fine geometry full frame sensors in production quantities... One swedish source (sic) claims that the current FF production line can not handle the increased resolution (steppers etc), and that Canon need to invest in two new production lines when starting up these monster sensors. Investment should be in the order of 1 bn dollars, and no indication that this has been done (industry watchers).
So, the current management is only interested in short term profits.
p.10 #3 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
phibes wrote:
it seems they all have that knowledge, even newcomers like that euro based CMOSIS (supplying Leica with a column adc featured sensor) .. all but Canon ...
That sensor is made in 110nm tech and stitched together , possibly 3 surfaces
Canon is still working in 180nm and large sensor surface
p.10 #4 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
thw2 wrote:
So, Canon has the capability but choose to ignore it. Sigh...
Obviously, the current management needs a major shake-up.
I remember this, PP.
Without any further knowledge about the technical and economical implications, it is difficult to comment on what we lost and why Canon had no interest. It may not be as simple as they just had no interest, but anyway, it is disappointing.
p.10 #5 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
skibum5 wrote:
not all studio shots have to strobe, although I guess a great many do
anyway not all of those shot types have to flash or strobe or be indoors even
yeah but a single 38MP, 6fps, great video, great DR, great AF would be heck of a cam
Cameras tailored to specific needs mean that the end purchasers don't have to spend money on features they don't want. A large portion of the photographers who would interested in a high megapixel camera don't need high fps.Now if you are one of those photographers that does needs lots of fps, well, good news...Canon already has existing cameras that meet that need
And: it's still not clear where your assertion on these specs is coming from that a 46mp camera would have 5fps and a 38mp camera would have 6fps.
p.10 #6 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
artd wrote: And: it's still not clear where your assertion on these specs is coming from that a 46mp camera would have 5fps and a 38mp camera would have 6fps.
Don't worry. He's just making it up.
I'd be happy with a 46 Mp (or anything say 32 to 50 Mp) with 0 fps (no Continuous shooting mode except for HDR mirror up) if that would keep the cost below the 5D3. Don't need fancy AF for the large market of Portraiture, Architecture, Interiors, Products, Fine Arts, Landscape, and a lot of studio work. It would also be great for lots of enthusiasts and advanced amateurs.
p.10 #7 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
Monito wrote:
Don't worry. He's just making it up.
I'd be happy with a 46 Mp (or anything say 32 to 50 Mp) with 0 fps (no Continuous shooting mode except for HDR mirror up) if that would keep the cost below the 5D3. Don't need fancy AF for the large market of Portraiture, Architecture, Interiors, Products, Fine Arts, Landscape, and a lot of studio work. It would also be great for lots of enthusiasts and advanced amateurs.
Yes, yes, I'm making it up Monito.
Actually it's coming from the rumor claiming that the 46MP will have 5fps and the fact that if it can drive 46 at 5 then it can drive 38 at 6. (now the 46mp, 5fps rumors on the websites NL and CR may be made up, but that is another matter)
p.10 #8 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
skibum5 wrote:
Actually it's coming from the rumor claiming that the 46MP will have 5fps and the fact that if it can drive 46 at 5 then it can drive 38 at 6. (now the 46mp, 5fps rumors on the websites NL and CR may be made up, but that is another matter)
How about 27MP at 8FPS? In other words, a potential FF 1D4.
p.10 #9 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
skibum5 wrote:
Yes, yes, I'm making it up Monito. Actually it's coming from the rumor claiming that the 46MP will have 5fps and the fact that if it can drive 46 at 5 then it can drive 38 at 6. (now the 46mp, 5fps rumors on the websites NL and CR may be made up, but that is another matter)
Just because the math works out that way has no relationship to what would be released. There is more to fps than DIGIC throughput. Plus some cameras have two DIGICs and others one.
A camera can be made less expensive or divert costs to other areas like a more sensitive or denser sensor by reducing the constraints of high fps mirrors and mirror boxes (materials and manufacturing). It also affects AutoFocus because part of the AF optical train has to rise up and flip out of the way during exposure.
p.10 #10 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
If the Canon Rumours have any truth to them, then it is good news as Canon does have to work on it's sensor. If the figures are somewhat true I would think it will be more in the 3fps and it does not sound like a cheap camera. Probably in the 8K range.
I shoot in the studio with a 645 AFD and it shoots at the rate of 1.2s per frame. Not very fast but in a studio setting not a problem. 46MP files and superb quality and sharpness right out of the camera.
If Canon can produce then it could be a real seller as most people have the lenses for 35mm which would save the expense of additional lenses on a different format.
p.10 #11 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
thw2 wrote:
Makes sense.
The previous Canon CEO was fired because the company profits did not meet expectations. The current CEO is trying to maximize company profits by selling subpar (5D3 vs D800, 6D vs D600) products at higher prices than the competition. They will have been better off if they focus more on improving their product quality, earning more respect from users and reviewers and establishing long term relations with their supporters. Their current strategy may benefit them in the short term but can be damaging in the long run. Sigh... In any case, we are just users looking for the best bang for buck... too bad for Canon.
Edit: Something just came to my mind. EXMOR technology is not the only solution to increase dynamic range. I believe the D3s/D4 sensors are designed by Nikon and these have better DR than anything from Canon so far even if they are slightly behind EXMOR DR. I think it's already a big step forward if Canon is able to match the D3s/D4 low ISO DR. Nikon also does not have experience with mobile phone cameras. ...Show more →
He wasn't fired at all. He resigned because he felt he had let the company down because revenues were markedly lower for 2010-2011, yet still quite healthy in light of what's happened in that time period. The current CEO Mr Mitarai is supposedly a stop gap as he is 75 and they say they want younger people at the top. How long that transition takes is anyone's guess. They have slashed R&D spending however.
p.10 #12 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
alundeb wrote:
I remember this, PP.
Without any further knowledge about the technical and economical implications, it is difficult to comment on what we lost and why Canon had no interest. It may not be as simple as they just had no interest, but anyway, it is disappointing.
As far as I know it didn't really make it out the Canon patent office into the hands of the sensor division.
p.10 #13 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
Brit-007 wrote:
If the Canon Rumours have any truth to them, then it is good news as Canon does have to work on it's sensor. If the figures are somewhat true I would think it will be more in the 3fps and it does not sound like a cheap camera. Probably in the 8K range.
I shoot in the studio with a 645 AFD and it shoots at the rate of 1.2s per frame. Not very fast but in a studio setting not a problem. 46MP files and superb quality and sharpness right out of the camera.
If Canon can produce then it could be a real seller as most people have the lenses for 35mm which would save the expense of additional lenses on a different format....Show more →
I don't know 3fps and $8000 when a D800 can be had for $3000 and gives 4fps (5fps in 1.2x and 6fps in 1.6x) and you get just 46MP vs 36MP difference? Would that work? $5000 is a lot for a less general purpose camera just to get 10 more MP once you are already into pretty solid 36MP territory. I think they'd have to price it way lower and lower than $8000 even if it does 5-6fps, although it could then certainly sit above D800 price with the 10 more MP and greater fps.
p.10 #14 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
Monito wrote:
Just because the math works out that way has no relationship to what would be released. There is more to fps than DIGIC throughput. Plus some cameras have two DIGICs and others one.
A camera can be made less expensive or divert costs to other areas like a more sensitive or denser sensor by reducing the constraints of high fps mirrors and mirror boxes (materials and manufacturing). It also affects AutoFocus because part of the AF optical train has to rise up and flip out of the way during exposure.
So yes, the numbers are made up.
Yeah the numbers actually do work out that way. So long as they give it a 6fps mirror box (and they certainly can since the D800 and D700 and 5D3 all have FF mirrors that can do at least 6fps for a not insane price).
So no they are not made up (beyond the possibility that the original rumor of 46+5 is made up).
What on earth does some have two digic or some have one have to do with my 45+5 vs 38+6
p.10 #15 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
ggreene wrote:
How about 27MP at 8FPS? In other words, a potential FF 1D4.
not bad, but it would definitely be 1DX price then, if not more, since that would be quite action capable indeed, arguably maybe even better overall for action than the 1DX
what about 32MP and 7FPS
they might fear 1DX sales if they go above 6.5fps though so what about 35MP 6.5fps or 6.4fps and 36MP so they are not below D800, that would one heck of a beast, a D800 with Canon lenses and UI and 6.4fps FF vs 4fps FF. That could slot in above 5D3 and below 1DX price.
who knows, one prediction the source also made can be tested within 5-6 weeks, if false then we can forget all this anyway
p.10 #17 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
alundeb wrote:
If this is the "solution" Canon will provide for DR, I will leave Canon for good. It will be a PITA for long exposures. How can it help recover shadows when I expose 300 seconds for the highlights? 1200-4800 seconds for clean shadows, No thank you.
The patent describes "a" solution - I'd be very happy if my 1 second exposure to minimize highlight clipping could be accompanied by a 4 or 8 second exposure for the shadows where the two exposures were centred on the same instant if it meant the shadow noise was improved by 2 or 3 real stops. Or if there was action, the shutterspeed would determine the exposure for the shadows (up the ISO if needed) and the highlights are caught with an 2-3 stop faster shutterspeed centred on the same instant in time - no more motion blur than the shadow shutterspeed.
Now, if I wanted a 36 hr exposure for my highlights, there's no way I'd wait for 6-12 days to extend the DR for the shadows either
The dual Green process offers the following significant technical advantages:
1) Doubles the effective saturation level of the summed Green output video
2) Increases the noise of the final Green output only by a factor of square root of two
3) Combination of 1) and 2) increases the effective dynamic range of the green signal –
and as a consequence, that of the matriced Luma signal
4) Increases the effective output green video bit depth
5) The half-pixel offset between the two separate green sampling lattices – both
horizontally and vertically – virtually eliminates the first order sideband spectra
associated with the sensor sampling process. This eliminates green aliasing.
6) Creates an effective FIR* filter within the readout process that aids the optimization
of the horizontal MTF and the progressive vertical MTF and associated aliasing
Topics 5) and 6) are dealt with in a companion white paper that discusses imager resolution.
* FIR stands for Finite Impulse Response – being a class of digital filters used in digital signal processing (DSP
Each photosite has noise generating sources associated with the various separate physical
mechanisms taking place inside it:
– Input Mechanism – shot or photon noise from random nature of photoelectron
collection over a small interval of time
– Reset Noise – thermal noise generated when the signal readout portion in the
pixel (floating diffusion) is reset
– Output Noise – 1/f noise from an amplifier in the pixel
– Output Amplifier Noise – On-chip MOSFET amplifier to extract tiny signal from
the charge capacitor
The new image sensor employs a number of strategies to effectively reduce the last three noise sources – which collectively define the noise floor of the imager.
The noise in the output analog signal is primarily reset thermal noise and the fixed pattern noise associated with the photosite. The reset noise is random and appears during the previous reset period, whereas the fixed pattern noise is primarily due to the variance among the threshold voltages of the amplifier MOS transistors. These noise components are read out separately from the signal readout (the latter still containing those noise components) and these two readouts are applied to a differential amplifier which successfully cancels the noise.
A low-noise narrow-band pre-amplifier then raises the resultant analog voltage to a level optimized for the application to the subsequent ADC process. Correlated double sampling -- which refers to a method whereby the output signal is sampled twice for each photosite - just after precharging capacitor and after the pixel charge packet is added, is employed. The difference between these two values does not include the noise component induced by the switch.
p.10 #19 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
AJSJones wrote:
The patent describes "a" solution - I'd be very happy if my 1 second exposure to minimize highlight clipping could be accompanied by a 4 or 8 second exposure for the shadows where the two exposures were centred on the same instant if it meant the shadow noise was improved by 2 or 3 real stops. Or if there was action, the shutterspeed would determine the exposure for the shadows (up the ISO if needed) and the highlights are caught with an 2-3 stop faster shutterspeed centred on the same instant in time - no more motion blur than the shadow shutterspeed.
Now, if I wanted a 36 hr exposure for my highlights, there's no way I'd wait for 6-12 days to extend the DR for the shadows either ...Show more →
Can't you just do that by taking two different shots now, one long, one shot and combine? Does that help much?
The dual Green process offers the following significant technical advantages:
1) Doubles the effective saturation level of the summed Green output video
2) Increases the noise of the final Green output only by a factor of square root of two
3) Combination of 1) and 2) increases the effective dynamic range of the green signal –
and as a consequence, that of the matriced Luma signal
4) Increases the effective output green video bit depth
5) The half-pixel offset between the two separate green sampling lattices – both
horizontally and vertically – virtually eliminates the first order sideband spectra
associated with the sensor sampling process. This eliminates green aliasing.
6) Creates an effective FIR* filter within the readout process that aids the optimization
of the horizontal MTF and the progressive vertical MTF and associated aliasing
Topics 5) and 6) are dealt with in a companion white paper that discusses imager resolution.
* FIR stands for Finite Impulse Response – being a class of digital filters used in digital signal processing (DSP
Each photosite has noise generating sources associated with the various separate physical
mechanisms taking place inside it:
– Input Mechanism – shot or photon noise from random nature of photoelectron
collection over a small interval of time
– Reset Noise – thermal noise generated when the signal readout portion in the
pixel (floating diffusion) is reset
– Output Noise – 1/f noise from an amplifier in the pixel
– Output Amplifier Noise – On-chip MOSFET amplifier to extract tiny signal from
the charge capacitor
The new image sensor employs a number of strategies to effectively reduce the last three noise sources – which collectively define the noise floor of the imager.
The noise in the output analog signal is primarily reset thermal noise and the fixed pattern noise associated with the photosite. The reset noise is random and appears during the previous reset period, whereas the fixed pattern noise is primarily due to the variance among the threshold voltages of the amplifier MOS transistors. These noise components are read out separately from the signal readout (the latter still containing those noise components) and these two readouts are applied to a differential amplifier which successfully cancels the noise.
A low-noise narrow-band pre-amplifier then raises the resultant analog voltage to a level optimized for the application to the subsequent ADC process. Correlated double sampling -- which refers to a method whereby the output signal is sampled twice for each photosite - just after precharging capacitor and after the pixel charge packet is added, is employed. The difference between these two values does not include the noise component induced by the switch.
They are only claiming a 73 db DR, but teh base ISO is 800.. They are saying thatthey maintain a 12 stop DR from ISO 350 to 20,000.
They are also doing high speed signal readouts to get 60P in 1/120 second, then splitting the signal to 2 frames.
Any application to still image DR in a higher MP sensor?...Show more →
as for the first part, for video they are combining things in a special way to get 8MP to a used 2MP (the offset greens make me think maybe the perfect crop video on 5D3 would be trickier then perhaps)
the 7D used split greens to a heavy degree and it made the mazing disaster at first until RAW programs found a way to combat it without making a mess and 100% view 7D files did appear to be just a trace softer ever since (it's amazing they combat it losing so little micro-contrast and res), it's sort of just another CFA cheat (they have gone more black and white than ever before with the 5D3, the worst metamerism score of any DSLR made) so they can match nikon high iso for luminance noise (DxO punished it because of the chroma noise and metamerism and thus the much lower 5D3 high iso score than the D800 even though the luminance SNR looks similar)
although actually i think the dual video green is not really directly comparable to the 7D split greens since the 7D still wants to keep 18MP target and not give as output specially binned sets down to 2MP
