p.9 #1 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
risedal wrote:
There are no indications that Canon has purchased new sensor lines
and if they shall bring down the read noise to the level of Sony they have to build sensors with raw vise adc on the edge of the sensor and that technology and know how does not Canon have, one possibility is a collaboration with eg Panasonic.
Panasonic is also struggling with low ISO dynamic range. Not a good choice as partner.
Maybe Aptina will be better? Still not on par with Sony (EXMOR technology), but definitely more decent than what Canon offers now.
I too have only skimmed this but it's an interesting idea. It seems, if I understand correctly, the sensor takes a preliminary image then uses that data to control the exposure time of individual pixels for the final image. Hence dark areas get greater exposure and bright areas less.
Of course, if you take that to the extreme then every pixel would come out as 18% grey.
p.9 #3 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
coranda wrote:
Of course, if you take that to the extreme then every pixel would come out as 18% grey.
that would solve the noise problem nicely, 100% smooth even at ISO25,600 underexposed 8 stops
granted your signal might also be sort of zero, but that's a minor detail
p.9 #4 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
skibum5 wrote:
that would solve the noise problem nicely, 100% smooth even at ISO25,600 underexposed 8 stops
granted your signal might also be sort of zero, but that's a minor detail
It would be a simpler camera to operate. You could get rid of all those confusing exposure controls and just have a single wheel to choose the grey level you wanted.
p.9 #5 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
coranda wrote:
I too have only skimmed this but it's an interesting idea. It seems, if I understand correctly, the sensor takes a preliminary image then uses that data to control the exposure time of individual pixels for the final image. Hence dark areas get greater exposure and bright areas less.
Of course, if you take that to the extreme then every pixel would come out as 18% grey.
The extreme is that every pixel gets 100% of its well capacity (max s/n) but the data is recorded as the time it took to get to 100% full
The patent describes the use of two or more different exposure times for different sets of pixels and then corrects for the difference so that darker areas get longer exposure and the luminance is consequently recorded more accurately. As a result, the lower bits of a 16 bit file can be utilized with less noise. The different exposures are centered on the same instant so any motion artifacts are only present in the lower luminance values where they are less obvious. If they actually have this system working, it will be a nice improvement in DR.
p.9 #6 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
that cooled-sensor rumor is hilarious ... whoever invented that seems to have no clue about the power- and cooling-requirements of such an device, not to speak of the problems concerning fogging ...
p.9 #7 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
AJSJones wrote:
The extreme is that every pixel gets 100% of its well capacity (max s/n) but the data is recorded as the time it took to get to 100% full
So one dead pixel on your sensor and the shutter never closes.
p.9 #8 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
AJSJones wrote:
The extreme is that every pixel gets 100% of its well capacity (max s/n) but the data is recorded as the time it took to get to 100% full
The patent describes the use of two or more different exposure times for different sets of pixels and then corrects for the difference so that darker areas get longer exposure and the luminance is consequently recorded more accurately. As a result, the lower bits of a 16 bit file can be utilized with less noise. The different exposures are centered on the same instant so any motion artifacts are only present in the lower luminance values where they are less obvious. If they actually have this system working, it will be a nice improvement in DR....Show more →
If this is the "solution" Canon will provide for DR, I will leave Canon for good. It will be a PITA for long exposures. How can it help recover shadows when I expose 300 seconds for the highlights? 1200-4800 seconds for clean shadows, No thank you.
p.9 #9 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
thw2 wrote:
Do you have facts to back up your assertion? The last time I checked, Canon as a whole is still making money (albeit less than predicted) while Sony is suffering from MASSIVE losses... talk about other departments bearing the costs....
we are discussing two different things, as a whole company Canon is strong while the sensor department is supported by the other departments.
Sony's sensor division is doing well while many other departments/divisions show losses
p.9 #10 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
thw2 wrote:
Panasonic is also struggling with low ISO dynamic range. Not a good choice as partner.
Maybe Aptina will be better? Still not on par with Sony (EXMOR technology), but definitely more decent than what Canon offers now.
Panasonic has the know how to use column-parallel analog-to-digital conversion
Panasonic has the column ADC technology Canon lacks.
Panasonic currently has a line of compact camera sensors - most of Canons compact cameras use Sony sensors.
Panasonic appears not to be able to make CMOS sensors that are as good as Canon at the pixel level.
So both companies can have benefit from each other
p.9 #11 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
risedal wrote:
Panasonic has the know how to use column-parallel analog-to-digital conversion
it seems they all have that knowledge, even newcomers like that euro based CMOSIS (supplying Leica with a column adc featured sensor) .. all but Canon ...
p.9 #12 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
phibes wrote:
it seems they all have that knowledge, even newcomers like that euro based CMOSIS (supplying Leica with a column adc featured sensor) .. all but Canon ...
Canon are far behind with old tech and can not reduce the electronics size as others with more modern facilities. Canon has no camera phone modules and does not have the experience and research, there are from mobile cameras inovations many new ideas are brought up and translated in to larger sensors .
In short- Canon are behind and must invest in new sensor lines or even better start a partnership with someone who mastered the latter technique
p.9 #13 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
alundeb wrote:
If this is the "solution" Canon will provide for DR, I will leave Canon for good. It will be a PITA for long exposures. How can it help recover shadows when I expose 300 seconds for the highlights? 1200-4800 seconds for clean shadows, No thank you.
yeah i was afraid of that, and could be problem for much faster scenes too perhaps
5D3 really is a pretty awesome cam, 1 series AF, 6fps, now with ML video is easier to use well and soon the compression will be improved thanks to that and it delivers quite fine video, great UI, etc. the only huge shame is the low ISO DR. excellent cam otherwise, very nice.
p.9 #14 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
risedal wrote:
Canon are far behind with old tech and can not reduce the electronics size as others with more modern facilities. Canon has no camera phone modules and does not have the experience and research, there are from mobile cameras inovations many new ideas are brought up and translated in to larger sensors .
In short- Canon are behind and must invest in new sensor lines or even better start a partnership with someone who mastered the latter technique
Makes sense.
The previous Canon CEO was fired because the company profits did not meet expectations. The current CEO is trying to maximize company profits by selling subpar (5D3 vs D800, 6D vs D600) products at higher prices than the competition. They will have been better off if they focus more on improving their product quality, earning more respect from users and reviewers and establishing long term relations with their supporters. Their current strategy may benefit them in the short term but can be damaging in the long run. Sigh... In any case, we are just users looking for the best bang for buck... too bad for Canon.
Edit: Something just came to my mind. EXMOR technology is not the only solution to increase dynamic range. I believe the D3s/D4 sensors are designed by Nikon and these have better DR than anything from Canon so far even if they are slightly behind EXMOR DR. I think it's already a big step forward if Canon is able to match the D3s/D4 low ISO DR. Nikon also does not have experience with mobile phone cameras.
p.9 #16 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
thw2 wrote:
Makes sense.
The previous Canon CEO was fired because the company profits did not meet expectations. The current CEO is trying to maximize company profits by selling subpar (5D3 vs D800, 6D vs D600) products at higher prices than the competition. They will have been better off if they focus more on improving their product quality, earning more respect from users and reviewers and establishing long term relations with their supporters. Their current strategy may benefit them in the short term but can be damaging in the long run. Sigh... In any case, we are just users looking for the best bang for buck... too bad for Canon.
Edit: Something just came to my mind. EXMOR technology is not the only solution to increase dynamic range. I believe the D3s/D4 sensors are designed by Nikon and these have better DR than anything from Canon so far even if they are slightly behind EXMOR DR. I think it's already a big step forward if Canon is able to match the D3s/D4 low ISO DR. Nikon also does not have experience with mobile phone cameras. ...Show more →
What Nikon has been able to do is pull down the read noise of their own designed sensors in D4.
Canon can do the same but they must be much better in the signal handling after the read out and to get so low readout noise figures as Sony shows with column wise ADC is not possible with the tradionell signal care
p.9 #17 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
I (and many others) firmly beleive that Canon knows very well how to produce very very high megapixel FF-sensors, and have a full understanding on how to produce emorish type of sensor to boot.
The question is how to do it with-out having troubble with patents (Sony) and still get the ultra low noise in low-ISO.
Then we have the issue of producing fine geometry full frame sensors in production quantities... One swedish source (sic) claims that the current FF production line can not handle the increased resolution (steppers etc), and that Canon need to invest in two new production lines when starting up these monster sensors. Investment should be in the order of 1 bn dollars, and no indication that this has been done (industry watchers).
It seems pretty normal that Canon claims that the sweet spot is 22 Mpix, when they are unable to deliver anything better for the time beeing... When they manage to crank out the 46 Mpix sensor this will of course be so big, that all sweet talk about 20-ish Mpix sensors will soon be forgotten
If I recall correctly, reason for APS-H was due to that was the largest sensor that could be produced at the time using that line and technology. I do recall that the 1Ds sensor was made by stitching two smaller ones ?!?.
p.9 #18 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
skibum5 wrote:
yeah i was afraid of that, and could be problem for much faster scenes too perhaps
5D3 really is a pretty awesome cam, 1 series AF, 6fps, now with ML video is easier to use well and soon the compression will be improved thanks to that and it delivers quite fine video, great UI, etc. the only huge shame is the low ISO DR. excellent cam otherwise, very nice.
As I posted before, Canon had no interest in a very clever solution to increase DR, that was produced by our company, which is a Research division of Canon Inc. The idea was patented and won an award and would have worked with existing sensor tech.
p.9 #19 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
WebDog wrote:
If I recall correctly, reason for APS-H was due to that was the largest sensor that could be produced at the time using that line and technology. I do recall that the 1Ds sensor was made by stitching two smaller ones ?!?.
IIRC the first 1D had a Panasonic CCD with 2 readout chains (left and right side of the sensor) and it appeard that the left and right half of on image looked somewhat different when pushed ...
p.9 #20 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
WebDog wrote:
I (and many others) firmly beleive that Canon knows very well how to produce very very high megapixel FF-sensors, and have a full understanding on how to produce emorish type of sensor to boot.
The question is how to do it with-out having troubble with patents (Sony) and still get the ultra low noise in low-ISO.
Then we have the issue of producing fine geometry full frame sensors in production quantities... One swedish source (sic) claims that the current FF production line can not handle the increased resolution (steppers etc), and that Canon need to invest in two new production lines when starting up these monster sensors. Investment should be in the order of 1 bn dollars, and no indication that this has been done (industry watchers).
It seems pretty normal that Canon claims that the sweet spot is 22 Mpix, when they are unable to deliver anything better for the time beeing... When they manage to crank out the 46 Mpix sensor this will of course be so big, that all sweet talk about 20-ish Mpix sensors will soon be forgotten
If I recall correctly, reason for APS-H was due to that was the largest sensor that could be produced at the time using that line and technology. I do recall that the 1Ds sensor was made by stitching two smaller ones ?!?.
