"The 5D3 and D800 are far more camera hence far more money"
I wonder why you say the 5D3 is far more camera. Not picking on you, but I do wonder what the 5D3 has that the D600 hasn't?
Seems to me that the placement of the D800, D600 and 5D3 would open up a possible (lower) price point for a full frame rebel. At least if they want any full frame body money from me at anytime ahead of the 5D4.
I'm hearing claims that Canon's lenses are so much better than Nikon's and that the D800's AF is a disaster from reading here.
Is that actually true? The last wedding I shot my 2nd had a D800 which was focusing the Nikon 85 1.4 noticeably faster than the 5D3 had been focusing my 50mm 1.4 when I was testing it (so does my 5Dc for that matter). I also hear that the Nikon wides are better than the canon ones and that their new batch of lenses are incredibly good. They've had a great 24-70 for years now, we're only just getting ours and at a scary price. Yes the D800 has the green cast (big deal, you should see the yellow cast on my 5Dc) but we have the 'Eye of Sauron' focusing confirmation on the 5D3 which was the reason I didn't buy it (I was in the store and ready), just couldn't get over the super silent shutter for unobtrusive shooting coupled with the entire lens flashing bright red making super obtrusive shooting. If there is any real complaint on the D800 it's the lack of mRAW and the awful ergonomics for my bigger hands. The Nikon flash system is still a mile ahead of ETTL II to my chagrin, just seems to need so much less FEC.
I'm a canon man, as soon as canon fix the Eye of Sauron I'm buying a 5D3, I just don't see the need for so much hyperbole in a discussion like this, it's always a sign of someone desperate not to lose an argument. Nikon are at the top of their game at the moment and if it pushes canon and drops the prices, those of us who prefer the way canon does certain things or canon lenses or whatever, we can only benefit.
the small form factor (FF camera that is only 500g??) is the thing that really sways me. How long have the hiking landscape photographers sought such camera?
Let's see how canon responds -- but I may be finally switching to the nikon camp.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Put that 36MP sensor in the Canon body and I'd be as happy as the proverbial pig.
I haven't used Nikon flash, but I find the Canon flashy perfectly fine, seems to get it right when I expect it to and I know when I'll need FEC.
Canon 50 f/1.4 has a an ancient quasi USM AF motor, so not surprised the 85 f/1.4 trounced it. My Canon 50 f/1.8 gave up in low light.
Yeah a D800 with EF mount would fly off the shelves. I'm not sure about the 1/4000 limit on the D600 either, if you like shooting wide open in sunlight that's going to be a problem (weddings). Nikon have some great bodies but for me the differences aren't big enough for me to swap to a lens system that isn't for me.
chez wrote:
From my perspective, the sensor is the largest piece of the pie. Was it not just a few years ago everyone bragged about Canon's lead in sensor technologies, their clean ISO, their megapixels. All of a sudden this does not matter much anymore? What has changed other than Nikon taking the lead in sensor technologies?
I think there's a subtlety that people are missing - the 5d3 sensors not at all bad. High ISO is fantastic with 6400 looking great, some of the banding in shadows has gone.
As something becomes very good, you get diminishing returns. With my 10d the leap to a 5d was enormous, but with each leap the times when a sensor holds people back becomes less and less. For the majority of photographers, the 5d3 sensor is perfectly fine and they will never hit its limitations. The same cant be said of the 10d.
So it's not that sensor isn't important but that it's priority has reduced and the amount it will help photographers when it's improved (outside of bragging rights) has significantly reduced.
surf monkey wrote:
The D600 seems to be their wedding/event camera. Easy to handle, better AF than the 5D2 (which many wedding photographers use) and lower priced than the 5D3.
The D800 seems to be the landscape/studio camera.
The D4 seems to be the sports/PJ camera.
I'm not going to switch because the sensor isn't everything, but the 5D3 with an EXMOR sensor and visible AF points would be perfect for me. As it is, it's plenty good, it's just not as good as it could be.
I guarantee you pro wedding photographers won't be buying d600s...
surf monkey wrote:
While I agree that the D4 seems ideal for wedding/event photography there aren't as many photogs willing to give up there hard earned money for one as there are photogs trying to get by with the equipment they have.
I've seen plenty of Canon 5D & 5D2 in use still, and their AF speed and shutter lag are not great. I've even seen xxD models occasionally as well. Some of the best wedding albums I've witnessed are from photogs with very humble gear.
That's why I see the D600 geared more toward the typical wedding/event photogs, not the D4. If you can afford the best, way not get one, but for the rest of the money-strapped out there, it looks like a good alternative. Although, I'm not sure that the venerable D700 could be bested by the D600 in a head-to-head competition where MP doesn't matter. ...Show more →
And that's the point. The d4 is too expensive, the d800 too high res and the d600 is too enthusiast. The d700 was perfect.
I'm not anti Nikon. I think theyve done a fantastic job. I'm anti "ignore the problems Nikon users have and beat on canon for doing nothing".
Beat on canon for what they *are* doing wrong but give them credit for what they're doing right. And in this generation they've solved some amazing problems - just not everything. That is exactly the same as Nikon.
The grass just isn't greener, overall. It might be for some, but overall it isn't.
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
I guarantee you pro wedding photographers won't be buying d600s...
I know a whole bunch who are. Why wouldn't they? Heck it creams a 5D2 on specs for wedding shooters. A lot of D700 wedding shooters who didn't want 36 megapixels are very interested.
Till half a year ago Nikon was still a generation behind Canon in Sensor tech. Sonys Exmor changed this they are on par now and slighty better.
Based on existing and offered gear, Canon is still leading in the pro field while having no high resolution equivalent to Nikons new D800. Do not forgett that this camera is just half an year old.
On the other side Nikon did not have an 5D II equivalent for the last four years. They closed this gap with D600. YESTERDAY! Imo it looks good, but I prefere to wait for real world experiences than trusting upon 6 images out of 8 they presented us.
Based on specs the new camera is en entry level FF that imo is not comparable with the more expensive 5D III except at least it offers the resolutiuon Canon established as "standard" already 4 years ago. NOW there is a Canon gap in the new field of cheap FF cameras and Canon has to fill it with a new camera in the 5D II price range.
I guess this camera is coming very soon. Next to this I am pretty sure, they will bring a D800 competitor (in resolution), too.
So what is this discussion here about? WE now have the broadest range of cameras to choose from in FF ever. And it will become even broader. For me this feels excellent.
My choice for the next body is still the 5D III. I did exactly 3 (good) images I choosed to delete because of horizontal banding in underexposed areas the last 3.5 years with my 5D II. I had a couple of images that made me feel uncomfortable because of its noise at ISO 6400. Both looks to be overcome with 5D III. I was getting more better results with shooting the 5D II using center point and recompose than using D700s "better" AF system. Here again 5D III is the leading offer. I am pretty sure the D600 will not top the 4Ds/D800s AF-System and by far not 5D IIIs. But we will see.
My reality is that Canon supported me very well with D60, 30D, 50D, 5D II over the last decade, while Nikon had nothing to compete in quality and/or price. They needed over one decade (till this year 2012) before they where able to offer solutions that can compete. And the only NEW system they presented was D800. 4D is just "we too". D600 is their answer to 4 year old 5D II. In the lens setup that I need/prefere, they are still far behind.
Canonians are crying about $ 2.300 for the (looks like) far best standard zoom in IQ ever? I am unhappy that it does not have IS. But it blows away Nikons competing glas, that is about 15 % cheaper but years behind in IQ.
They are all just companies. And they create products that fail, too. The 5D II light leak issue was a laught (for me). The D800 AF issue by far is not. It is as horrible as the AF issue of 1D III was, that killed this otherwise superb body.
At Amazon germany actual the 5D III sells more succesfull than D800 does. And it is rated 5 stars compared to 4 stars given D800 because of the AF issue, Nikon still does not have a solution for.
At the end of MY day I have to view the pics I did to feel happy or not. Not comparing the gear I own to the gear others own.
Yes, I am pretty interested in the D600 and of course I will test it well. As far I see this was a good year for me. And I guess I will purchase a new body around christmas. I will let you know if it is a D600, a 5d III or maybe the new Canon entry FF.
Beni wrote:
I know a whole bunch who are. Why wouldn't they? Heck it creams a 5D2 on specs for wedding shooters. A lot of D700 wedding shooters who didn't want 36 megapixels are very interested.
Actually *professional* wedding photographers?
Everyone I've spoken to has said 1/4000th would be an issue (but they use primes) and they wouldn't use SD cards as a main means of recording images. Most don't believe the camera will stand up to the knocks and scrapes. Several didn't like the missing AF ON button.
Originally when AF micro adjust wasn't available that was a killer, but looks like that's sorted
They all wanted a d700 replacement, and aren't seeing this as it.
Sep 14, 2012 at 03:32 AM
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shoenberg3 wrote:
the small form factor (FF camera that is only 500g??) is the thing that really sways me. How long have the hiking landscape photographers sought such camera?
Let's see how canon responds -- but I may be finally switching to the nikon camp.
What camera are you talking about? It can't be the D600. Because Nikon say it's 850 gr including battery& memory card but without body cap
Yes, professional full time wedding photographers. It's like the strobist guy saying the camera is a failure for a 1/200 flash sync. Um, sorry, what does he think we've been using for the past 7 years on 3 generations of 5D bodies? The Pentax 645D at $10,000 uses only SD cards. The 1 series used to have them as a 2nd card. Cummon.
Speaking of which, people I'm talking to are in Jerusalem and they don't seem bothered by the 1/4000, how bad can it be in Manchester (especially at the moment, it's freezing!) I've twice in 7 years of shooting weddings in the UK had a problem using f1.8 when the 1/8000 isn't enough.
Beni wrote:
Yes, professional full time wedding photographers. It's like the strobist guy saying the camera is a failure for a 1/200 flash sync. Um, sorry, what does he think we've been using for the past 7 years on 3 generations of 5D bodies? The Pentax 645D at $10,000 uses only SD cards. The 1 series used to have them as a 2nd card. Cummon.
Speaking of which, people I'm talking to are in Jerusalem and they don't seem bothered by the 1/4000, how bad can it be in Manchester (especially at the moment, it's freezing!) I've twice in 7 years of shooting weddings in the UK had a problem using f1.8 when the 1/8000 isn't enough. ...Show more →
I don't know any that are, but then I only know 1 shooting Nikon However he was lining up 2 of these to replace his D700's, the 1/4000 is a deal breaker for him. Nikon will still do well out of him as he'll be going for a couple of D800's now. He's pretty disappointed as he was looking forward to a smaller, lighter setup that the D600 might have provided.
As a D700 user I was looking for a possible replacement, and one that would beat the D700 at low ISO. This isn't it. Its a cut down budget offering from Nikon, and in the UK it costs less than £300 more to buy the far superior D800.
Maybe in the US its a good deal, but in the UK the D800 is looking a FAR FAR better deal.
Sorry, but Nikon have failed to make the grade with this one.
Beni wrote:
Yes, professional full time wedding photographers. It's like the strobist guy saying the camera is a failure for a 1/200 flash sync. Um, sorry, what does he think we've been using for the past 7 years on 3 generations of 5D bodies? The Pentax 645D at $10,000 uses only SD cards. The 1 series used to have them as a 2nd card. Cummon.
Speaking of which, people I'm talking to are in Jerusalem and they don't seem bothered by the 1/4000, how bad can it be in Manchester (especially at the moment, it's freezing!) I've twice in 7 years of shooting weddings in the UK had a problem using f1.8 when the 1/8000 isn't enough. ...Show more →
I'm honestly surprised. Genuinely.
The Pentax 645 doesn't go out into the field much and isn't often trusted with peoples "once in a lifetime" images. I use a backup SD for weddings on my 5d3 too. I wouldn't trust it as a first card though. Neither would any of my friends. Too flimsy.
I've had several times this year when 1/8000th wasn't quite enough and I had to expose slightly over and pull back in RAW. 1/4000th would mean the maximum I could go to would be around f2.5 to f2.8 on a sunny day. As a professional I can't say "sorry - it was a sunny day so I couldn't use my usual DOF". Fine if 2.8 is all you need, but the amount of photographers *around the world* using primes now means, to me, this is a serious issue. And again, it was to most of the others I spoke to.
Fair enough. If I was Nikon I'd have bought another couple of d700's by now...
I want to make the point again - the d600 will be a fantastic camera with exceptional IQ, especially for the price. However, it's not the solution to a replacement d700 which is what Nikon wedding photographers were wanting, I believe.
As a final point, I think Canon lost a lot of wedding photographers to Nikon in the last generation. They've been left largely out in the cold by Nikon. The same could be said this generation for Nikon studio shooters who came to Canon.
I just find it odd that Nikon didn't *slightly* up the specs of this camera and make it the d700. Maybe they have another camera up their sleeves?
Beni wrote:
I'm a canon man, as soon as canon fix the Eye of Sauron I'm buying a 5D3, I just don't see the need for so much hyperbole in a discussion like this, it's always a sign of someone desperate not to lose an argument. Nikon are at the top of their game at the moment and if it pushes canon and drops the prices, those of us who prefer the way canon does certain things or canon lenses or whatever, we can only benefit.
No it isn't. It's a sign that people disagree because people have different priorities. For my work, the 5d3 is the best camera out there full stop. It's that simple. That includes the 1dx, which I tested. That's not to say it's perfect and the focus confirmation viewfinder issues were a huge error and I've said that time and time again. I've also said that they low ISO quality of shadows isn't fantastic and they should have worked on it. That doesn't stop it being the best out there *for me* though.
What you've just effectively said is that people who disagree *with you* that Nikon are at the top of their game are disagreeing because they want to win an undefendable argument and they're defending because no one could have a different opinion to you. (I know you didn't say this is these words, but I think that's what you're effectively saying)
People are disagreeing ... because they disagree. It's not defence - it's a different opinion. If you're welcome to share your opinions, people are welcome to share theirs and point out whatever they believe
Totally agree that Nikon and Canon users both win for increased competition.
P.S You shouldn't bring the 50 1.4 into the discussion - it's a terrible lens If you manage to get a good 50 1.2, it's night and day.
I've twice in 7 years of shooting weddings in the UK had a problem using f1.8 when the 1/8000 isn't enough. 
If you manage to get a good 50 1.2, it's night and day.