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Archive 2012 · How noisy is your 7D?

mikeengles
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p.13 #1 · How noisy is your 7D?

Hello

From reading all the posts and looking at the images, it seems to me that in using the 7D and other cropped cameras like it, that we have a fundamental Catch 22.

Due to its pixel density it is claimed that we need to use high shutter speeds.
This is difficult when there is good light but not very bright light, so to satisfy the above we need to raise the the ISO. The next problem is that we need to get close to the subject, to try to fill the frame to avoid cropping.The depth of field of cropped cameras in less than with full frame, so if we move closer to the subject, the effective depth of field decreases. To increase depth of field we need to use higher apertures, but to maintain shutter speed and exposure we have to increase the ISO. Very soon we are in ISO 3200 territory. We also know that the use of higher ISO damages the fine detail that we are trying to capture.

So Catch 22

Here is a small demo simulating ISO 3200.
I took a 5D2 file and added some noise simulated to match noise from a 7D at ISO 3200. I merged the noise and the original file and then used a pass of Neatimage 7 removing 75% of the added noise and sharpened to match the original file.

Here it is
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4402957911/photos/2191501/iso3200

It is the reason why I never use the 7D at ISOs higher than 640

Of course the better thing to do is to take a series of pictures of an object with furry texture, perhaps a childs toy at increasing ISO from 100-6400 and then to inspect them.

Mike Engles

Edited on Sep 03, 2012 at 02:57 PM · View previous versions

Sep 03, 2012 at 02:45 PM

Alek Komarnits
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p.13 #2 · How noisy is your 7D?

This has been an interesting thread to read ... so I'll finally chime in with my two cents.
Plus present a TRULY TOUGH/LOW-LIGHT IMAGE for comment/advice! ;-)

First, I've been shooting with a pair of 7D's for several years and like the camera (plus easier on my pocketbook than full-frame gear) and I like to stay at ISO400 or below ... as I find noise creeps in above that (even visible there with blue skies, etc.) ... plus the image is more prone to "falling apart" when I manipulate with Lightroom - probably related to reduced dynamic range.

Here's a picture taken at with a 7D and 70-200/2.8ISv2 (at full tele) at F/2.8, ISO3200, and 1/6 second ... hand-held from a Safari vehicle!

Obviously light conditions weren't the best and there's some slight camera motion in this image (plus the baby is moving) - another is tighter, but the baby isn't looking. The shot won't win any prizes, but it was kinda fun doing it ... and I was pleasantly surprised the camera could even focus in these conditions. Other people in the vehicle could barely make 'em out with binocs ... but the 70-200/F2.8v2 is awesome and brings it own light to the party! ;-)

You can download the RAW file here ... and here is the corresponding XMP. LR4 settings were basically "default" ... with White Balance at 8000/+20, I did a +25 on Clarity & Vibrance, Sharpness was 25/1.0/25/10 and Noise Reduction was 75/50/0/75/50 - needless to say, I rarely, rarely go that high. I pulled into CS6 and just did an Auto-Contrast - resulting JPEG (quality=8) is available here.

As perhaps obvious at F/2.8, ISO3200, and 1/6s, I was "outa options" ... and probably close to the limit of the AF, although contrasting black-white stripes on the zebra surely helped. Again, any suggestions/comments on my processing are very much appreciated ... and do I have a "good" 7D?

Here's the as-shot image resized to 1000 pixels.

2000 pixel crop that is resized 50%

Edited on Sep 03, 2012 at 03:23 PM · View previous versions

Sep 03, 2012 at 02:51 PM

uz2work
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p.13 #3 · How noisy is your 7D?

Alek Komarnits wrote:
This has been an interesting thread to read ... so I'll finally chime in with my two cents.
Plus present a TRULY TOUGH/LOW-LIGHT IMAGE for comment/advice! ;-)

First, I've been shooting with a pair of 7D's for several years and like the camera (plus easier on my pocketbook than full-frame gear) and I like to stay at ISO400 or below ... as I find noise creeps in above that (even visible there with blue skies, etc.) ... plus the image is more prone to "falling apart" when I manipulate with Lightroom - probably related to reduced dynamic range.

Here's a picture taken...Show more →

Unless I'm missing something, the links that you provided for the raw file are just taking me back to this same FM page.

In any case, I think that the initial problem with the image is that you don't have enough depth of field to get both the adult and the young animal in sharp focus. Also, if the light was such that, at f2.8 and ISO 3200 you could only get shutter speeds of 1/6 of a second, I'm not sure I'd have high expectations for the results regardless of the equipment I was using.

Les

Sep 03, 2012 at 02:56 PM

Alek Komarnits
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p.13 #4 · How noisy is your 7D?

The links were fixed (actually by time you hit reply).

Yes, I agree depth-of-field is pretty skinny ... but with the light I had, I was "MAXED OUT" at F/2.8 (can't open any wider), ISO3200 (rarely do I shoot that high) and hand-holding at 1/6s - can't exactly put the lens on a tripod for a multiple second exposure of a moving animal! ;-)

I just present it as a really, really low-light example (a bit tougher than Conrad's beautiful bird) and welcome comments on the 7D performance and the post-processing I did.

Sep 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM

John_T
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p.13 #5 · How noisy is your 7D?

Touch of motion blur there, but all in all think you came out pretty good considering the ISO and shutter speed.

Sep 03, 2012 at 03:13 PM

time2clmb
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p.13 #6 · How noisy is your 7D?

mikeengles wrote:
Hello

From reading all the posts and looking at the images, it seems to me that in using the 7D and other cropped cameras like it, that we have a fundamental Catch 22.

Due to its pixel density it is claimed that we need to use high shutter speeds.
This is difficult when there is good light but not very bright light, so to satisfy the above we need to raise the the ISO. The next problem is that we need to get close to the subject, to try to fill the frame to avoid cropping.The depth of field of cropped cameras in...Show more →

Wow!...Nothing more to say other than simply wow.

Sep 03, 2012 at 03:27 PM

uz2work
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p.13 #7 · How noisy is your 7D?

John_T wrote:
Touch of motion blur there, but all in all think you came out pretty good considering the ISO and shutter speed.

I agree. I just downloaded and opened the raw file, and, even with ISO 3200, f2.8, and 1/6 second shutter speed, the image is still underexposed. I don't think you could have done much better with those conditions than you did. When I did play with the raw file a bit, about the only thing that I came up with that is better than your conversion is that my attempt had significantly less noise. I think that is probably the result of doing what the gurus in this thread have suggested and turning off sharpening completely in the converter settings. If you do that, you don't enhance the noise in the conversion, and you can do selective sharpening of just the subject(s) just fine in post conversion processing.

Les

Sep 03, 2012 at 03:36 PM

Liquidstone
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p.13 #8 · How noisy is your 7D?

There's another technique that I resort to when I'm in the mood to PP and wishes to savor each tiny pixel of detail generated by my 7D - convert the RAW twice.

The first conversion has aggressive NR and zero sharpening in ACR. The second has less NR and more sharpening. I then paste the second over the first in PS and erase away parts of the top layer using a brush of varied opacity, size and edge feathering. The composite will have the best of both worlds - low noise at OOF and dark areas, and more detail in the in focus regions.

This technique might take me anywhere from 15 minutes up to a full hour for just one photo. But when I consider the time and effort I invested in the birding sortie, such PP work is a small price to pay to get the best out of my favorite captures. I also console myself with the thought that the masters in the past (say Ansel Adams) expended so much more time and effort in their dirty lab to obtain the final image that they want.

Sep 03, 2012 at 04:25 PM

Liquidstone
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p.13 #9 · How noisy is your 7D?

mikeengles wrote

Due to its pixel density it is claimed that we need to use high shutter speeds.

Mike Engles

Only when you need to freeze motion, Mike.

Otherwise, at relatively static subjects, you can go slow Tv if your long lens technique is effective. I've shot 1/25 sec using the 7D + 1600 mm, and here's how it looks at the pixel level.

http://www.romyocon.net/2011/05/moonshooting-with-birding-lenses.html

Sep 03, 2012 at 04:33 PM

uz2work
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p.13 #10 · How noisy is your 7D?

time2clmb wrote:
Wow!...Nothing more to say other than simply wow.

+1
There are so many wrong premises here that I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Did you know that, if I took a picture of George Bush's head and overlaid it onto a picture of Queen Elizabeth's body, Queen Elizabeth would look just like George Bush with an old lady's body?

Les

Edited on Sep 03, 2012 at 05:26 PM · View previous versions

Sep 03, 2012 at 04:37 PM

uz2work
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p.13 #11 · How noisy is your 7D?

Liquidstone wrote:
Only when you need to freeze motion, Mike.

Otherwise, at relatively static subjects, you can go slow Tv if your long lens technique is effective. I've shot 1/25 sec using the 7D + 1600 mm, and here's how it looks at the pixel level.

http://www.romyocon.net/2011/05/moonshooting-with-birding-lenses.html

But that is because you are doing everything possible with regard to lens support and other technique to reduce camera shake to an absolute minimum, and, even then, (with animals/birds) you have to have some luck on your side with regard to the subject not moving at all. On the other hand, if you think that you are going to shoot with a long lens, no IS, hand held, etc. and not see the effects of camera shake at slow shutter speeds, you are really going to really have to have luck on your side.

Les

Sep 03, 2012 at 04:49 PM

Liquidstone
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p.13 #12 · How noisy is your 7D?

uz2work wrote:
But that is because you are doing everything possible with regard to lens support and other technique to reduce camera shake to an absolute minimum, and, even then, (with animals/birds) you have to have some luck on your side with regard to the subject not moving at all. On the other hand, if you think that you are going to shoot with a long lens, no IS, hand held, etc. and not see the effects of camera shake at slow shutter speeds, you are really going to really have to have luck on your side.

Les

Les, I think there's no debate on the fact that the effect of camera shake (due to hand holding and/or mirror slap) is more apparent with smaller pixels when viewing at the pixel level. Still, there are countermeasures to mitigate this; e.g. using a tripod/bean bag, IS, mirror up, remote switch, shooting in low to zero wind, etc. If some of such countermeasures are possible/available, and the subject is static, the 7D need not be shot at very fast shutter speeds.

Brown Hawk-Owl (Ninox scutulata)
Shooting Info - 7D + 500 f4 IS + 1.4x TC, 700 mm, f/7.1, ISO 200, 1/20 sec, 475B/3421 support, manual exposure in available light, remote switch, IS off, LV shooting (to raise the mirror).

http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/130046045/original.jpg

Edited on Sep 03, 2012 at 05:25 PM · View previous versions

Sep 03, 2012 at 05:21 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.13 #13 · How noisy is your 7D?

arbitrage wrote:
The 7D seems to have a problem with blue skies. That is one area that you will notice noise even at ISO 200 and 400. There have been other cameras with this particular problem in the past. I believe it was the Nikon D300 that was really bad at blue skies also. I have no idea what causes this but I think it is one variable that adds to the 7D's poor noise reputation out on the internets.

Not true at all and I have already shown an example earlier in this thread where even without NR in LR there was little noise in the sky. If you are having trouble with blue skies it's because you are shooting at standard exposure. I always shoot at ~ +1.67EV with a bird against a blue sky (+2EV against an overcast sky) and there is minimal noise. I rarely have to use NR outside of LR at ISO 400.

Sep 03, 2012 at 05:25 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.13 #14 · How noisy is your 7D?

John_T wrote:
Touch of motion blur there, but all in all think you came out pretty good considering the ISO and shutter speed.

+1

The only issue with this shot is very slow shutter speed, so you had no hope of getting a sharp shot. IQ wise other than this it looks great for ISO3200. Could you not have braced the camera somehow on the vehicle? I assume it wasn't moving.

Sep 03, 2012 at 05:28 PM

uz2work
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p.13 #15 · How noisy is your 7D?

Liquidstone wrote:
Les, I think there's no debate on the fact that the effect of camera shake (due to hand holding and/or mirror slap) is more apparent with smaller pixels when viewing at the pixel level. Still, there are countermeasures to mitigate this; e.g. using a tripod/bean bag, IS, mirror up, remote switch, shooting in low to zero wind, etc. If some of such countermeasures are possible/available, and the subject is static, the 7D need not be shot at very fast shutter speeds.

Brown Hawk-Owl (Ninox scutulata)
Shooting Info - 7D + 500 f4 IS + 1.4x TC, 700 mm, f/7.1, ISO 200,...Show more →

Romy,

I'm sure that you are right, and your pictures prove it. One of my points, however, is that you are taking those countermeasures to mitigate against camera shake. And your use of live view, sturdy support, etc. shows that. Some others are not willing to take those measures, and still others find themselves in shooting situations where they can't be taken. And my other point is that, even if you do take those measures, you still need to have some luck on your side. At those shutter speeds, if the bird blinks, slightly turns, etc., you are not going to get the same level of sharpness. The law of averages says that you are going to do okay sometimes, but, many others, that isn't going to be the case. When I'm shooting a still subject, I'm willing to take my chances with multiple shots of the subject that I'm going to get one or more shots with no motion blur. When shooting action, not only do I need the higher shutter speeds to stop the action, but an active subject, unlike a still subject, isn't going to give me a second chance if the first attempt didn't work out well. And I learned quickly that, if I'm going to take best advantage of the high pixel density of the 7D to be able to crop severely, print large, etc., any motion blur or camera shake is going to be magnified, and that is why maximizing my shutter speeds quickly became a priority with my use of the 7D. That said, very little of my shooting is with static subjects.

Les

Sep 03, 2012 at 05:40 PM

uz2work
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p.13 #16 · How noisy is your 7D?

Pixel Perfect wrote:
+1

The only issue with this shot is very slow shutter speed, so you had no hope of getting a sharp shot. IQ wise other than this it looks great for ISO3200. Could you not have braced the camera somehow on the vehicle? I assume it wasn't moving.

The issue is actually with both shutter speed and aperture. At f2.8, there just isn't enough depth of field to have gotten both the adult and the baby in focus. But, as I said earlier, I'm not sure what else he could have done to get any better results with the light he was working with.

Les

Sep 03, 2012 at 05:46 PM

mikeengles
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p.13 #17 · How noisy is your 7D?

Hello

As far as I can see I only made 5 premises. which is I think a distillation of many comments I have read on this and other forums, as well as from my own experience. Is my methodology with the demo incorrect? Is the noise simulation inaccurate?
The demo is as far as I can see a common process done in all software to reduce noise.

I suppose the qualification that Romy mentions is valid, but a high shutter speed is needed to minimise blur caused by both subject movement as well as movement by the camera.

Mike Engles

Sep 03, 2012 at 05:48 PM

n0b0
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p.13 #18 · How noisy is your 7D?

Sep 03, 2012 at 06:02 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.13 #19 · How noisy is your 7D?

uz2work wrote:
The issue is actually with both shutter speed and aperture. At f2.8, there just isn't enough depth of field to have gotten both the adult and the baby in focus. But, as I said earlier, I'm not sure what else he could have done to get any better results with the light he was working with.

Les

I realise DOF was small, but in a compromise between DOF and shutter speed I'll take shutter speed as more important any day. I'd rather a sharp shot of one of the zebras with small DOF than a blurry shot of both of them with larger DOF.

Edited on Sep 03, 2012 at 06:43 PM · View previous versions

Sep 03, 2012 at 06:05 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.13 #20 · How noisy is your 7D?

n0b0 wrote:
Mate, if you still manage to smudge the details doing NR on your 5D2 ISO400, like you did in that example, I can see why you don't like to use the 7D.

n0b0 I think this line of reasoning is a dead end. Clearly there is a dichotomy with users of the 7D. The majority get on with it just fine and the minority think it's pretty ordinary. You will never convince them otherwise no matter how much evidence is shown.

Sep 03, 2012 at 06:08 PM

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