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Archive 2012 · D600 yes/no/maybe???

  
 
Two23
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p.5 #1 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


M635_Guy wrote:
I want one, too, but in my opinion they'll sell a LOT more D600's than they would a D400.




I disagree. The price will certainly be higher on a D600 for starters. Add to that the cost of lenses for it (24-70mm f2.8 and 14-28mm f2.8.) There just isn't all that much difference in image quality between FX and DX either. Finally, if someone was wanting a cheaper FX, why wouldn't they just buy a D700? None of the other camera makers have really gone into FX in a big way, and that's because the market just isn't there. It's actually the 4/3 segment that is hot and selling. There are a lot of advantages to DX over FX that are important to some shooters, less to others. I see FX as a dinosaur, a format harking back to the 1920s when Barnack built a camera to use cheap 35mm movie film. There is nothing special about the format, especially now.


Kent in SD



Aug 31, 2012 at 04:56 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.5 #2 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


For me, there's far too much confusion over the d600, to even try to guess at how well it will sell. Given the cost of an FX sensor compared to DX, there's a built-in difference that is substantial, not only for the sensor, but for the mirror box and associate items as well, especially if it comes in at the rumored 6fps. It costs more to run an FX mirror at 6fps than it does DX.

At this point, I tend to believe that a d600 is coming. What I find hard to believe is the specs, especially for the $1500 price that so many seem to think it will be.

The d7k MSRP was $1500 at announcement. So, how can a d600 with very similar specs, come in at anywhere near that price? The cost difference for the sensor, mirror box and associated components, plus the fact that the market is smaller, would likely be $600 or $700 at a minimum. Seems very likely to me, that *if* the rumored specs are correct, the minimum MSRP would far exceed $2k US.

A very good example is the cost difference between the d300 and d700, when they were announced. The d300 was around $1800 MSRP and the d700 was around $3k US, which was the same for the d800 at announcement, with a slightly lower spec'd body than the d700.

Lastly, the 5dII apparently is going to continue in Canon's product line. It's being sold for about $1995, in the places that I checked. Canon is also rumored to be coming out with a "cheap" FF body this fall. So, why would any Canon user switch to Nikon for the d600, when the 5dII is already below $2k and there's rumor of an even cheaper body coming? The d700 has been available for very good prices lately and it's a premium body. Isn't it likely that most anyone that really wants a Nikon FX camera, would have already bought a d700? Are there really that many photographers that would pass on a d700, just to wait for a rumor to come true? Is the rumored 24mp sensor really that important to those folks?

For the d600 to hit $1500 US, I'd expect it to have basically the same specs/components as the d3200.

IMO, the numbers just don't crunch. I'm intrigued by the idea of the d600, but it's hard to get excited about it, given the current info. Hopefully, we won't have too much longer to wait for some factual information on it.

Kerry



Aug 31, 2012 at 05:56 PM
dj dunzie
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p.5 #3 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Hopefully, we won't have too much longer to wait for some factual information on it.

Kerry


Kerry I agree with pretty much your whole post, but while I keep checking out this thread for whatever reason, THIS is the part of your post I MOST agree with!



Aug 31, 2012 at 06:24 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.5 #4 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


dj dunzie wrote:
Kerry I agree with pretty much your whole post, but while I keep checking out this thread for whatever reason, THIS is the part of your post I MOST agree with!


I think you're right, DJ. I'd much prefer to discuss facts than fiction. If I weren't interested in the "idea" of a d600, it would be easy to pass on the speculation threads.

Kerry



Aug 31, 2012 at 06:44 PM
M635_Guy
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p.5 #5 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Two23 wrote:
I disagree. The price will certainly be higher on a D600 for starters. Add to that the cost of lenses for it (24-70mm f2.8 and 14-28mm f2.8.) There just isn't all that much difference in image quality between FX and DX either. Finally, if someone was wanting a cheaper FX, why wouldn't they just buy a D700? None of the other camera makers have really gone into FX in a big way, and that's because the market just isn't there. It's actually the 4/3 segment that is hot and selling. There are a lot of advantages to DX over FX
...Show more

Kent - my personal segmentation puts the D600 in the "prosumer" category with the D7000. I don't think those are pro-glass customers, and they tend to buy new, so D700's aren't their option (while I know a lot of FM'ers and similar folks will get a D600, I don't think they represent where the volume will come from - D600 will sell a lot in retail, etc.).

I think you'll see a lot of D600's with 18-300's on them along with a nifty fifty f/1.8.

Even if the D600 is $1500, sheer volume will drive more revenue than a $1599-$1799 D400 (though I'm expecting the D600 at $1899, personally).

I guess we'll see in a couple weeks...



Aug 31, 2012 at 06:54 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.5 #6 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Gunzorro wrote:
Andre -- The D2X and D2H were probably the last two pro-DX cameras Nikon will ever make.

You have a choice of the D3200 or probably an improved version of the D7000. Perhaps a semi-pro D400 will arrive, but it won't be a true pro camera.

Frankly, I'll be surprised if Canon reissues the semi-pro 7D, but maybe so. It's just so "yesterday's news" and would really have to pack some new features to compete with the T4i.

The market seems to be full frame for pro use (and used FF for many entering), and crop for entry level and enthusiast.
...Show more


The D300 and D300s are pro bodies. Are you going to tell me the F6 is not a pro body simply because the battery grip is not integrated?! I don't think so. The D300 is a pro body ... yes, there are nice advantages to the integrated body but an integrated body is not a requierment for a body to be pro.

As a replacement to the D300, a D400 would likewise be a pro body.



Aug 31, 2012 at 08:19 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.5 #7 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


M635_Guy wrote:
As a product management guy, we're going to have to agree to disagree. This isn't about them protecting DX lens investments, it is about moving the serious amateurs up to an FX platform. New price point, they'll buy FX lenses, put pressure on Canon, etc. Look how many D7K owners are salivating at the idea of an FX camera with the D7000 handling.

The D400 crowd doesn't care about the D600 for the most part (including me). I'm hoping it is just a best-kept secret and that the D300s replacement is coming...



yes, I will have to agree to disagree. I understand that what you describe appears to be what Nikon is pushing customers to do, but I think it will backfire and end up pissing off a significant and important segment of Nikon's customers. Many people seem to share my view, most significantly, Thom Hogan, who seems to be fairly savy at marketing too.



Aug 31, 2012 at 08:22 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.5 #8 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Kerry Pierce wrote:
I think you're right, DJ. I'd much prefer to discuss facts than fiction. If I weren't interested in the "idea" of a d600, it would be easy to pass on the speculation threads.

Kerry


LMAO ... Add me to that group guys ... I'm just annoyed at this point and am using the web to VENT!!!!!!



Aug 31, 2012 at 08:23 PM
Gunzorro
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p.5 #9 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


M635_Guy wrote:
What is your definition of a pro camera?


I don't have a personal definition of a professional grade camera, but I can point you to the examples and you can breakdown the specs and compare to non-professional gear.

In Nikon, pro cameras started with the 1.5x APS-C crop D1, D1X, D1H, D2X, D2H, then switched to the full frame for D3, D3x and D4 (with a model variations). Those are Nikon's only pro cameras.

In Canon, the 1D was the first pro body ever marketed (1.3x APS-H crop). That was followed by the 1Ds, the first full frame body. The development bounced between 1D series and 1Ds series -- 1D2, 1Ds2, 1D3, 1Ds3, 1D4, 1DX. Canon has never made a professional model with the smaller APS-C censor, and seems to have dropped the intermediate 1.3x APS-H sensor.

The qualities that determine a professional camera have to do with it's durability and workmanship -- they are designed to last and function in the most difficult situations. Nikon and Canon's pro cameras feature the best weather-sealing, and generally have strongest processors and memory options, and the greatest selection of accessories. They are not always the newest technology, but occasionally feature high end developments not available on lesser models. The prices reflect the quality and attention to detail.

This a very pedantic overview, and perhaps your question was mostly rhetorical. But those are the main qualities and history of true pro-grade camera bodies from Canon and Nikon.



Aug 31, 2012 at 08:29 PM
cbreiland
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p.5 #10 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


There could be room for an entry level FX body and a 8-10fps DX sports beast in the sub 2k realm.


Aug 31, 2012 at 08:36 PM
Gunzorro
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p.5 #11 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Andre -- You can think of the D300 as a pro body if you want, but it is not. Sorry. It is semi-pro, with quite a few pro-type features, but not a quite the complete, sealed package with the best processor and accessories. The Canon 7D is in the same semi-pro category, and arguably more advanced with its dual processors, full HD video, and higher MP sensor.

The F6 (and the earlier "F" bodies) were pro for the film era. Built rugged and tough, with quite a few options. But pro film camera doesn't directly equate across the digital threshold, where not only more electronics are involved, but even a sensor that needs more protecting, and the options are only limited by the electronics engineers.



Aug 31, 2012 at 08:43 PM
M635_Guy
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p.5 #12 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Gunszerro - I'm aware of the heritage. Personally, I classify the D300s as a pro camera. Other than it is a non-integrated grip design, lacks voice notation and the secondary rear screen, I don't see much that isn't comparable to the D700/D3 of its generation...

If there are other significant things that separate it from, say, a D3, I'd be interested to hear about them.



Aug 31, 2012 at 08:49 PM
Gunzorro
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p.5 #13 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


More bad news: the D700 isn't a pro body either.

We basically have four agreed upon DSLR market segments and body styles: Professional, Semi-Pro, Pro-sumer, and Entry/Consumer.

Usually the most debate centers around the what makes up semi-pro (D300/7D) and pro-sumer grades (D7000/60D).



Aug 31, 2012 at 09:17 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.5 #14 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Gunzorro wrote:
More bad news: the D700 isn't a pro body either.

We basically have four agreed upon DSLR market segments and body styles: Professional, Semi-Pro, Pro-sumer, and Entry/Consumer.

Usually the most debate centers around the what makes up semi-pro (D300/7D) and pro-sumer grades (D7000/60D).


HEY EVERYONE, WE HAVE AN EQUIPMENT SNOB!!!!!!



Aug 31, 2012 at 09:42 PM
Gunzorro
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p.5 #15 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Andre -- Are you yelling? Gather the pitchforks and torches!

That would be a nice dream -- to have all the equipment I can't afford, and actually be an equipment snob. Don't think that will ever happen -- I make do the best I can.

Call your gear whatever you like, and hopefully you'll get your heart's desire in a new body.

Back to the topic -- I'll mark you down as a definite "no", okay?



Sep 01, 2012 at 12:10 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.5 #16 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Gunzorro -- I'm currious, do you get the point that what you so emphatically state as fact regarding pro/ semi-pro/ etc. is not some offically and uniformly accepted fact but nothing more than your optinion? Opinions are like assholes, we all have one.


Sep 01, 2012 at 07:31 AM
Ralph Conway
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p.5 #17 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Based on Gunzorros 4-split categories I would add a 5th one and split Entry and consumer. And my asshole tells me nor D300 is a semi-pro, neither 7D. Both are "pro-sumers". D700/800/5D/5D II and 5D III are/were Semi-pro.

R.



Sep 01, 2012 at 07:43 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.5 #18 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Well while we are letting our assholes do the talking, mine says that the divisions are like this:

D# series = high-end pro (like the monster dumptrucks at mines)
D### series = low-end pro (like the normal dumptrucks you see on the road)
D## and D#### series is a mix of pro-sumer (same thing as semi-pro; like a 1 ton pickup) like the D7K and consumer bodies like the D5000 (full-sized half-ton) and D3000 (mid-sized half ton) where the D3000 is the entry-level consumer body.
Coolpix = goat carts

flatchulence ended.



Sep 01, 2012 at 09:39 AM
Ralph Conway
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p.5 #19 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


My AH just wispered at me: "Ralphi, pro gear is used by pros to make pro pictures and earn pro money. It does not matter whatever gear it is."


Sep 01, 2012 at 10:03 AM
M635_Guy
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p.5 #20 · D600 yes/no/maybe???


Ralph Conway wrote:
My AH just wispered at me: "Ralphi, pro gear is used by pros to make pro pictures and earn pro money. It does not matter whatever gear it is."




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gunzorro wrote:
More bad news: the D700 isn't a pro body either.

We basically have four agreed upon DSLR market segments and body styles: Professional, Semi-Pro, Pro-sumer, and Entry/Consumer.

Usually the most debate centers around the what makes up semi-pro (D300/7D) and pro-sumer grades (D7000/60D).


"We"? We who?

I don't think there is any debate about the classification of the D300 vs. D7000 - they are clearly in different classes (let's limit this to Nikon since that is both the forum and the topic, not to mention the two companies may not have completely aligned segmentation/product strategies).

The build and handling of the D300s, D700, D800 are very consistent with their larger full-body counterparts, and clearly many, many pros are using these cameras.

In any case, I wouldn't turn my hand over for the difference between "semi-pro" vs. "pro" if that is the classification you're using - certainly there are far more non-pros using a D300s/D700 than D3s/D4's. But both classes are pro-build/pro features in my opinion unless you can give me some substantive reason why they can't be.

I'd love to hear Nikon's internal product segmentation and strategy. If they are indeed not replacing the D300s with a camera of similar build/handing, it is extremely disappointing and a mistake IMHO. I think Andre and I disagree on some details but are actually pretty close on overall opinion (and both of us want a "real" D400! )




Sep 01, 2012 at 10:49 AM
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