p.2 #1 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
PetKal wrote:
My view:
1.3 crop...not needed, redundant, gone....a thing of the past.
1.6 crop....economy and high pixel density driven for those that get their "reach" ( ) thru photoshopping and cropping. A bit of an AF update as well as some ISO noise cleanup, and 7Ds will become a formidable camera line for the thrifty.
FF.....that is where 35mm photography happens.....all the crop factors have just been an economic expedient of the early dSLR development phase.
+1: Exactly. 1.6x crop sensors were originally developed just as compromise to avoid the higher cost of CMOS full frame sensors in the past. Since cost for making bigger sensors dropped, I am sure cropped sensors will be soon outdated in regular DSLRs. Also processor speeds got faster, so even full frame sensors can now handle fast fps rates needed in sports cameras for example. But cropped sensors will remain for a while in P&S cameras and new mirrorless cameras.
p.2 #2 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Not a snowball's chance in hell Canon will ever drop crop sensors from their Rebel series. Stop deluding yourselves about FF for all DSLR's. It will always result in a larger, heavier camera with larger heavier lenses and for many people they could care less about the supposed superiority of FF and probably aren't even aware of it anyway. The majority of people don't need FF.
Each format has it advantages and for now I'd much rather a crop camera of around 18-20MP that can shoot 10fps than a FF of 30MP that could shoot 4-fps for wildlife. I'm sure in a few years we will get high frame rate high pixel count FF so it might not matter so much, but we aren't anywhere that yet
Aug 06, 2012 at 08:07 AM
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p.2 #3 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
I like the 1.3 crop and I'm using a camera with it. I removes the worst performing edges of FF (where lens softness, vignetting, distortion, CA are the most evident) while still giving good pixel density for better noise performance (for example I was shooting 20D and my 1D Mark II N side by side, and the N has slightly but noticeably better IQ). Some officially APS-C lenses can be used on APS-H bodies as well, some even with no noticeable vignetting (like Tamron 60/2 macro that I hope to buy some day) even though I admit that the Nikon/Sony implementation is better - any lens can be used physically but when an APS-C one is used the camera can be switched into crop mode with viewfinder masking - that's neat.
If I ever upgrade (for example if my 1D Mark II N fails utterly or is stolen - God forbid but I don't see myself upgrading otherwise), I'd be getting a 1D Mark IV, no matter its status by that time. It seems just that good.
p.2 #4 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
twistedlim wrote:
Do you really think so Mike? I gotta believe it will not be any differrent than say the 1d2 which is about 8 years if I rememeber before they end support. It hurts the used market, but if it is not different than any other body I think they would hold their value.
Rich
They gave seven years from the end of production to the 1D2 so it will probably be the same for the 1D2N and 1D2 .. meaning support will stop in 2013 for the 1D2N and 2016 for the 1D3.
Does anyone know what they mean by ending support? .. certainly repairs, but how about parts?
p.2 #5 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
twistedlim wrote:
Do you really think so Mike? I gotta believe it will not be any differrent than say the 1d2 which is about 8 years if I rememeber before they end support. It hurts the used market, but if it is not different than any other body I think they would hold their value.
Rich
Yes, Rich - About 7-8 years is the cycle, as far as I know. When I mentioned "long-term" I was thinking beyond the remaining years of service that Canon will provide: staying with a Mk IV for its APS-H goodness for as long as possible.
p.2 #6 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Mike Mahoney wrote:
They gave seven years from the end of production to the 1D2 so it will probably be the same for the 1D2N and 1D2 .. meaning support will stop in 2013 for the 1D2N and 2016 for the 1D3.
Does anyone know what they mean by ending support? .. certainly repairs, but how about parts?
Mike, my understanding is that Canon typically sells off its inventory of spare parts for models whose service is discontinued. The buyers are usually the non-factory repair shops. In other words, Canon gets out of support entirely, service and parts.
p.2 #7 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Not a snowball's chance in hell Canon will ever drop crop sensors from their Rebel series. Stop deluding yourselves about FF for all DSLR's. It will always result in a larger, heavier camera with larger heavier lenses and for many people they could care less about the supposed superiority of FF and probably aren't even aware of it anyway. The majority of people don't need FF.
Each format has it advantages and for now I'd much rather a crop camera of around 18-20MP that can shoot 10fps than a FF of 30MP that could shoot 4-fps for wildlife. I'm sure in a few years we will get high frame rate high pixel count FF so it might not matter so much, but we aren't anywhere that yet...Show more →
A full frame sensor can be built into small cameras without issue - look at the Leica and Fuji full frame cameras. Also, many wide angle lenses suitable for full frame are not heavier than those for cropped sensor cameras. The 17-40 is not heavier than my Sigma 10-20 lens for example. I am convinced that full frame will fully move into the Rebel series in only a few years no matter what. With higher MP full frame senor you can easily crop if longer reach is needed (there I see the huge advantage of high MP full frame sensors!). No need for APC-H or -S then. Personally, I am not going to buy any new or used cropped sensor camera at this time.
p.2 #8 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
I predict APS-H is dead.
APS-H was never actually a "format" in the same way the FF and APS-C (FX and DX if you prefer) are formats. There are no APS-H specific lenses, and no other camera company making sensors of this size (the last one was Leica, with the M8).
My sense was that for Canon, APS-H was always about finding a balance between delivering the best quality vs. speed of shooting. Since the Nikon D3 proved you could do both in a full size sensor (and brought many former Canon converts back to the Nikon camp) the writing has been on the wall that Canon's 1D series would go full frame.
For those desiring more "reach", I think it would be fantastic if Canon brought some revolutionary advances to APS-C (assuming this is possible). A 7D Mark II with a stop and a half better high-ISO performance and improved focusing would be killer option for birders and would go a long way toward getting people to forget APS-H.
p.2 #9 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Count me in as one who is dismayed by Canon's apparent decision to abandon the 1.3 crop sensor and as one who, for the kind of shooting I do, can't find the logic in abandoning a 16 MP 1D Mark IV and 500/4 combination in favor of an 18 MP 1DX and 600/4 combination that weighs more, costs much more, and puts fewer pixels on the subject in focal length limited situations.
If all you care about is cost, weight, and 'pixels per duck', why not use a 7D with a 400mm lens?
I think most people are really looking for Pro AF and f/8 AF in a crop cam, but they're somehow getting caught up in the belief that a 1.6x crop factor has to be bad.
p.2 #10 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
dunderwood wrote: If all you care about is cost, weight, and 'pixels per duck', why not use a 7D with a 400mm lens?
I think most people are really looking for Pro AF and f/8 AF in a crop cam, but they're somehow getting caught up in the belief that a 1.6x crop factor has to be bad.
p.2 #11 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
garyvot wrote:
I predict APS-H is dead.
APS-H was never actually a "format" in the same way the FF and APS-C (FX and DX if you prefer) are formats. There are no APS-H specific lenses, and no other camera company making sensors of this size (the last one was Leica, with the M8).
My sense was that for Canon, APS-H was always about finding a balance between delivering the best quality vs. speed of shooting. Since the Nikon D3 proved you could do both in a full size sensor (and brought many former Canon converts back to the Nikon camp) the writing has been on the wall that Canon's 1D series would go full frame.
For those desiring more "reach", I think it would be fantastic if Canon brought some revolutionary advances to APS-C (assuming this is possible). A 7D Mark II with a stop and a half better high-ISO performance and improved focusing would be killer option for birders and would go a long way toward getting people to forget APS-H. ...Show more →
p.2 #12 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
PetKal wrote:
My view:
1.3 crop...not needed, redundant, gone....a thing of the past.
1.6 crop....economy and high pixel density driven for those that get their "reach" ( ) thru photoshopping and cropping. A bit of an AF update as well as some ISO noise cleanup, and 7Ds will become a formidable camera line for the thrifty.
FF.....that is where 35mm photography happens.....all the crop factors have just been an economic expedient of the early dSLR development phase.
Well said Peter...I completely agree with all of this.
p.2 #13 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
ggreene wrote:
What I really hate is that Canon has no viable replacement/alternative to the 1D4 as a whole. I don't mind switching to a FF or 1.6x crop body but Canon inevitably cripples them in some way. That's what made the 1D4 so unique and desirable. It's sad that there will be no 1D5.
Agreed, but patience is required, and will be rewarded! But I think 1.3 crop cameras are a thing of the past.
The problem with dense sensors with small photosites is that they generically don't perform as well as sensors with big photosites, which makes them tricky to use.
The best way to get the very best IQ at distance is to use a low-density sensor (a pro body helps) with the longest, quality glass you can get...and leave the teleconverter in the bag.
p.2 #14 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Each format has it advantages and for now I'd much rather a crop camera of around 18-20MP that can shoot 10fps than a FF of 30MP that could shoot 4-fps for wildlife. I'm sure in a few years we will get high frame rate high pixel count FF so it might not matter so much, but we aren't anywhere that yet
People have been saying that for at least 8 or 9 years in threads on this board. While it may be true that, down the road, camera technology will allow for more pixels and higher frame rates, what is also true is that, at any given time, whether 8 years ago, today, or 5 years from now, it will always be possible to build a crop camera with fewer pixels but higher pixel density than its full frame counterpart of the same generation, and the crop camera will potentially be able to shoot with a higher frame rate. For those who are shooting regularly in focal length-limited situations and who will regularly be needing to crop away 30-40% of the pixels from the full frame camera, there is little point in starting out with those pixels and paying the price of a lower frame rate than would be possible with crop body that has fewer total pixels but higher pixel density. So, for example, if, in a few years, it will be possible to have a FF body with 40 megapixels and 8 fps, it will also be possible to have a crop body with 30 mp that shoots at 12 fps and puts more pixels on the subject than the full frame body rather than having a good percentage of those pixels always being thrown away via cropping and having a slower frame rate.
I find it remarkable, whenever I read these threads, that there are some who are either incapable of or who refuse to accept the notion that it might be the case that the best format for some types of shooting might not necessarily be the best for others. I completely accept the fact that full frame sensors may well be the best choice for what many shoot, but I don't need to have others who don't shoot what I do try to tell me that the equipment that is the best for them must be the best for me, also.
p.2 #15 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
The problem is APS-H was synonymous with the 1D series. 7 and 5 series bodies are most certainly not at that level as far as build quality. Unfortunately, Canon has killed off the mid level pro body.
p.2 #16 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
ggreene wrote:
The problem is APS-H was synonymous with the 1D series.
... Unfortunately, Canon has killed off the mid level pro body.
Yup, that's what it boils down to.
When people ask for the return of APS-H, they are really asking for an affordable pro body.
Same build/speed/features as the 1-series ... but at 3x lower price.
And that's just because of the smaller - but still large - sensor.
Call me crazy but I don't think that Canon will find this agreeable ... ever .
p.2 #17 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Sadly, that's true. They want to force people into buying the 1DX which doesn't even replace the feature set of the 1D4 and they want a 40% price hike for it.
p.2 #19 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
jorkata wrote:
Yup, that's what it boils down to.
When people ask for the return of APS-H, they are really asking for an affordable pro body.
Same build/speed/features as the 1-series ... but at 3x lower price.
And that's just because of the smaller - but still large - sensor.
I don't believe everyone who is asking for APS-H to continue is an affordable pro body in mind. Hell, the 1DS3 is on the boards for dirt cheap prices relative to what it used to be. There's plenty of ways to get affordable pro bodies. That said, I am finding the APS-H sensor is a workhorse and I simply want what pictures/video I get out of my 1D4 in a smaller 7D or 5D3 size that won't be so much of a liability in the field.
Am I missing something? Most people are essentially saying "Why not go full-frame" and "1.6 crop is great". My initial post reads that I already have full-frame, and my workflow doesn't allow the terrible high-ISO capabilities of the current 1.6 sensor. So, a 7Dmk2 with APS-H for around 2 grand would be my ideal companion body.
p.2 #20 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Yes, you are missing something: not everybody thinks the same as you and wants different things. It doesn't invalidate your point of view but realize that the views of others are just as valid. If everybody sang in the same 1.3X chorus, Canon would deliver, but the market is tiny so it is extremely unlikely. I'd buy a 7D/1.3X if the price was low enough but I couldn't imagine it hitting stores for much less than $2500.
) thru photoshopping and cropping. A bit of an AF update as well as some ISO noise cleanup, and 7Ds will become a formidable camera line for the thrifty.
But I think 1.3 crop cameras are a thing of the past.