p.1 #1 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
We are covering a larger National Basketball Tournament at the end of the month. I've asked the event organizer to not let photographers except ours shoot from anywhere else than the stands and he said no, I then asked that he not let anyone shoot from the ends of the court and he said no but he will make sure no one is in our way but he sayshe will not stop a mom or dad from photographing their kid, I understand that and really don't have as much problem with parents shooting their own kid as much as much as the moms and dads who look at my pricing and then go tell the coach "you don't need to buy their pictures, I will just bring my camera and shoot everyone for free". I have had these parent/pro wannabees at every single tournament I've covered. How would you handle this situation?
p.1 #3 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
I'm confused ... are you there because he wants you there, or are you there because you want to be there.
It sounds like he has no interest in whether you are there or not ... just that he is "allowing" you to be there. Or am I missing something here.
You mention "National Basketball Tournament" ... who is the client? Is he the client, or are you the client (i.e. shooting freelance) shooting for yourself hoping to make sales, or have you been contracted to provide coverage and offer sales.
It sounds to me like he is merely extending your permission to shoot ... the same as he will extend it to just about anyone, anytime, anyplace. If that is the case ... then he has little vested interested in your success ... photographically or financially. If he has contracted you to provide a service, then is he compensating you directly or is your compensation for services tied to your sales. If he has contracted you, and he is expecting your compensation to come from your sales ... then, I might be inclined to counter, but I doubt he'll give two hoots about boo as to your welfare.
BTW ... what is it that makes you think (terms) that you are due "exclusivity" for this event ... because he, certainly isn't on that same page ... even though you want it.
One thing I learned long ago about hiring contractors was that if I wanted to keep good contractors around ... I had to safeguard their profitability. It didn't take me long to figure out that if I "squeezed" my contractors too tight ... they'd simply pass on doing any work for me.
If he is squeezing you so tight that you don't feel you can provide the photographic or economic results ... there is always "Thanks, no thanks." Not what you want to hear, and there are probably more info / details that you haven't shared ... but from what you've painted it just sounds like a "free-for-all". Are you under a contract (terms) to perform coverage, or is this straight freelance, or is it something else?
BTW, what is it that makes you think (terms) that you are due "exclusivity" ... because he certainly isn't on the same page of the contract as you are. Competition & free-enterprise are wonderful things ... but not always "easy" to contend with.
I'm also a bit confused in that you've built it up @ "National Basketball Tournament" as if it is a bit of a big deal. Not to say it isn't ... but if it is, then why the disconnect between open competition @ freelance vs. exclusivity contract. I mean, Sports Illustrated doesn't even get "exclusivity" to the Super Bowl. OTOH, allowing mom's & dad's to shoot courtside suggests something of a different perspective. This just seems like a lot of "disconnect" @ perception.
p.1 #4 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
I contacted him and let him know what we do and offered to cover the event. He said he would welcome us but asked that we pay a certain amount (not a small amount) I agreed. I have paid half of that amount up front and was planning to pay the rest when we arrived. As much as I am paying I would think their would be some areas that would he would keep everyone else out of such as base line.
p.1 #5 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
NorthernBuck wrote:
I contacted him and let him know what we do and offered to cover the event. He said he would welcome us but asked that we pay a certain amount (not a small amount) I agreed. I have paid half of that amount up front and was planning to pay the rest when we arrived. As much as I am paying I would think their would be some areas that would he would keep everyone else out of such as base line.
Terms need to be worked out before any payment is made for your protection. I suspect you have learned an expensive lesson. Personally, I would ask for my $$ back and do something else that day.
p.1 #6 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
lukeb wrote:
Terms need to be worked out before any payment is made for your protection. I suspect you have learned an expensive lesson. Personally, I would ask for my $$ back and do something else that day.
+1
It very much sounds like you want to be there WAY MORE than he wants you there. Since you are PAYING HIM to be there ... two things come to mind.
1) Business is still business and you've got a decision to make @ whether or not you feel that this will be a profitable return on your investment as to proceed vs. recoup your deposit vs. cut your lossess now.
2) Being that your are PAYING HIM, I would express that your "normal" (obviously unspoken, unagreed upon, unspecified terms @ time of acceptance) expectations are different than what has since been realized. From that ... either seek to modify terms or amount.
It is usually more difficult to modify terms AFTER an agreement has been reached, but it can, does & will happen. This sounds like such a "terms unspecified" arrangement that it'll be tough to get him to specify anything at this point. After all, what has he got to gain vs. lose by changing what you've already agreed to (despite your assumptions @ unspecified terms).
This is where your "business" understanding is going to have to "step up" and this one seems like a poster child for the adage of "90% business / 10% photography".
Don't be surprised if he:
A) Doesn't budge on the terms.
Why should he, what's in it for him? What is his risk? Reward?
B) Doesn't refund your deposit.
It certainly won't be the first "non-refundable" terms associated with a ticket ... which is what this sounds like. You seem to have agreed to purchase an admission ticket with extra privileges.
C) Still expects you to perform your services.
This will be the critical point @ which you'll be able to garner "some" negotiation position. If he says fine, no biggie you don't have to come if you don't want to, then he is all about selling you a "privileged access ticket". If he says you need to honor your commitment, etc. then he is trying to enforce a contract (albeit a loose, unspecified, verbal one). Once a contract framework is acknowledged by both parties ... now modification/negotiation is possibly opportune.
But, don't hold your breath here. As soon as you start to go down the contract/terms/two party road ... he'll likely go back to A) and realize that he has no or little vested interest (risk/reward) and will simply let you "walk" at that point (likely without a refund) or continue @ previously stated.
Shifting gears ... Chez (correct me as needed) was kinda making the point that your product vs. others DIY efforts should be a substantially different product based on your experience / approach / equipment / setup / etc., even if it is the same subject matter. If your output is essentially the same product as the DIY of parents with a fancy camera, then you might be feeling some encroachment @ DIY self-service and need to re-think the profitability potential of this event compared to being the "only store in town" that you were expecting, based on your unspecified assumptions.
Ultimately, it is going to be your call ... but business is business and terms are terms. Leaving terms "unspecified" and not in writing ... even if just a simple email confirmation @ clarification of significant points ... is often cause for more problems, disagreements & misunderstandings than not. Whether you're a house painter or a photographer, specified terms between seller & buyer go a long way to preventing such situations. As is, you agreed (verbally) to something with unspecified terms, based on your own assumptions. You might have to just live with that on this one and make the best of it ... besides, what are the chances of every mom & pop in the stands getting the "killer shot" that you'll be getting? Any chance we are in "mountain" vs. "molehill" on the DIY encroachment ... or do they really present that much of a threat to your business model?
Let us know how it goes and a pic or two (public event) if you follow through with it.
p.1 #7 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
chez wrote:
I wouldn't. Surely the mom & pop at their kids games taking a few shots is not your competition is it?
What I have found is that as better cameras drop in price more and more moms and dads are picking them up and designating themselves as "Team Photographers". They then figure that they can take pictures for their teams and because they have a kid on the team they don't want to charge anything for their photos so they just give them away. Then when it comes time for tournaments and especially important tournaments they feel "obligated" to provide photos because they have been doing it all year and they have by then appointed themselves as the "Team Photographer". To say parents only judge quality is silly because they are always looking at price as well so the two things parents are using to decide if they will purchase photos are quality and price. Lets say, for argument sake, that my photos are a 10 out of 10 in quality but the self appointed "Team Photographer's" prices are a 10 out of 10 for price because they are obviously free. The "Team Photographer" may only be at a 4 or 5 out of 10 for quality but when they are giving them away that puts me at around a 0-2 or 3 out of 10 for price compared to the "Team Photographer" About 80% of the time the team will go with the self appointed "Team Photographer". The problem is not the dad or mom with the camera who takes pictures of their own kid because I sell to about 75% of those parents. Anyone who is disregarding the self appointed "Team Photographers" is making a huge mistake. If something is not done to address this issue I see it eventually destroying the event photography business. It has had at least some impact on every event I've covered and that impact will grow as better cameras become less expensive. Not because better cameras make a better photographer but because better cameras make it easier for mediocre photographers to put out a product that's good enough, especially during tough economic times.
p.1 #8 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
@NorthernBuck - I agree 100% with everything you said.
I was one of those parents that was a enthusiastic hobbiest and would take photos of my Son's league games for both Soccer and Baseball, since I was there, I took shots of other kids on the team, and for a few years I ended up with the "implied obligation" to shoot each year. About 5 years ago, I began doing photography professionally, and wouldn't you know it, my son's teams still expect photos. But I swallowed hard and said no and explained that I was happy to do it for years but that my investment in gear and working on my craft are such that I am now in a position that I can't shoot for free anymore as I have to recoup my investment. Some parents I think were a bit put off, but most understood, and they paid for my services.
Every once in a while I will shoot a game and toss some photos up on my site for the parents, but only if they used my services that year. If they didn't then I don't give them anything.
At the end of the day, I know my work and my gear is way better than Mom and Dad, and the photos do not compare. While many parents do have cameras and are happy to have lower quality "free" photos, In the end I find that once parents see the work of a Pro they will pay for better photos. They won't pay a lot, but they will pay.
p.1 #9 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
I don't disagree with the perspective @ some of the reality of the world we live in and it's influence relative to consumer purchasing patterns. But, what I'm a bit "confused" at is ... that since you aren't a newbie @ event and present as well-versed on the SIGNIFICANCE of the "state of the industry" ... why didn't you address such a SIGNIFCANT issue up front with the event coordinator before agreeing to cover and sending your money?
The issue @ hand isn't really about some mom's & dad's (that's a reality of the world that you aren't going to change) ... but how to contend with your new found dilemma @ the event coordinator vs. your current business model seeking exclusivity. It is probably going to boil down this simple:
His rules ... you want the gig or not
Of course, only you can assess how that bodes for your business model. If his rules "trash" your business model, then it becomes an easy "no thanks". If his rules potentially erode your profits, but there is still enough meat left on the bone, then take what's there and make the most of it. If you're pics are at "10" ... then maybe its your marketing / salesmanship that could rise to the challenge (and yes, I understand it is a challenge in the face of people giving away free "5's" and "6's").
I ran into a similar issue with RE agents @ DIY ... I tweaked my presentation (90% business) and now my phone rings a bit more often. Sometimes even pics that are a "10" don't "speak for themselves" as to why a "10" has more value than a "5" or a "6". You might think it obvious .... and to us it likely is ... but sometimes you have to help others realize that more than you'd think. Ask yourself, "Why are the parents there in the first place." Now ask again, "Really, why are the parents there?" As you come to understand what it is the parents are really there for ... you can begin to "tweak" on your marketing strategies, accordingly.
Some people can market "ice cubes to Eskimos" ... others can't market "ice water to people in Hades". The product itself (assumed @ "10") isn't the only piece of the puzzle. Just like the price / quality correlation for the parents is real ... so is the marketing / perceived value correlation.
p.1 #10 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
RustyBug wrote:
But, what I'm a bit "confused" at is ... that since you aren't a newbie @ event and present as well-versed on the SIGNIFICANCE of the "state of the industry" ... why didn't you address such a SIGNIFCANT issue up front with the event coordinator before agreeing to cover and sending your money?
Because I obviously made an assumption and therefore a mistake. My assumption was related to what I thought I was paying for. Before this event I have always worked by percentages, offering a percent of profits to the organizer. What I have obviously learned is that when you pay a flat fee to the organizer they obviously have no vested interest in your profitability are therefore are less likely to do anything to help maximize your profit margin.
p.1 #11 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
RustyBug wrote:
Some people can market "ice cubes to Eskimos" ... others can't market "ice water to people in Hades". The product itself (assumed @ "10") isn't the only piece of the puzzle. Just like the price / quality correlation for the parents is real ... so is the marketing / perceived value correlation.
I don't shoot events or professionally but have developed marketing plans for business operations I've managed. Most recently I managed the in-house printing operation for the US State Department where the challenge was getting its domestic and worldwide offices to print with us rather than go Kinkos or overseas printer. We had two distinct markets, domestic and overseas at embassies, with different marketing plans for each. We couldn't compete on price in either market, so we had to make it more convenient for the customers to work with us. For the domestic customers it was being in the same building and offering design assistance — up-front skills they lacked. For the oversea customers it was the ability to ship the products to them quickly. Our marketing plans for each market segment were designed around those "hot button" factors which market surveys had revealed.
Similarly you should look thoughtfully at what means of marketing worked in your current local market and what you need to do differently now that you are moving up and covering regional events. There's a big difference in marketing in a small local market where people know you by reputation and a larger regional event. The business model of shooting and posting photos on a web site to generate sales works on a small scale because parents know you and by reputation and word of mouth referral. You hand them your business card but get the sale because the parent next to them says, "He took my son's photo last year and it looked great".
Over the years there have been many threads about event shooting. The photographers who seem to prosper at it are those who target on-site impulse sales and go to an event with a production / sales team and on-site printing capability. It's not a low overhead approach which is why they usually only cover large regional / national events where the potential sales volume make the effort profitable.
Creating an on-site production and sales operation is not a trivial undertaking and not one that will be immediately profitable. It becomes less about the photography and more about understanding how to market and run a business.
The traditional business model for events was impulse sales of prints produced on-site that would wind up on the refrigerator at home. The fact that the photos are only available at the event is the marketing hook that drives the decision of the customer to buy. Amusement parks use the same model. When you get off a ride you see your screaming face up on a video screen and can buy a print for $5. They likely only sell prints to 1% of the people, but its a low overhead operation with a high volume of riders.
But I wonder how viable that print sales driven model is today. Today people want a photo they can post on their Facebook wall while at the even to share with family and friends. Is there a way for a professional event photographer to tap that market? The business model of taking photos and posting them on a web site might work for local events but doesn't press the "impulse button" that drives sales at regional events where the photographer isn't known by reputation.
Thinking about the problem adding value to electronic file delivery it occurred to me that a clever marketer might offer prints and electronic delivery on site, but inflate the price of the prints to the point where the electronic file seemed like a real bargain by comparison.
Net profit is all about sales volume and overhead. Increase the former and decrease the latter and you wind up with more net profits. Solo practitioners tend to discount the true value of their labor and get a rude awakening when expanding and needing paid help. Just the administrative overhead of hiring someone is considerable.
The biggest expense is labor. Printers and materials are cheap compared to the labor needed to run them. The customers only see the cost of the print and get sticker shock. How can you do on-site sales with the least amount of labor overhead on a per sale basis? Turn over the customers faster and eliminate the production of prints.
Let say you currently are selling an 8 X 10 print for $15 and it costs you $1 to produce in materials / packaging. If you raise the price of the print to $30 and offer an electronic file delivered 1200 x 1800 pixel JPG (4" x 6" @ 300ppi) via e-mail immediately to their cell-phone for $15 and sell the same volume your net profit is greater. You really wouldn't want them to buy the print but if they do the profit margin for it is doubled.
Why not just offer electronic files? Without comparison with the $30 print a $15 electronic file would seem overpriced. That's the marketing aspect of the exercise RustyBug touches on. How to sell ice cubes to Eskimos? Make the yellow snow seem like a less attractive alternative
When selling an impulse item price point is a trigger. What if you offered the electronic files for only $5? If that price point increased sales volume by over 3x over the $15 price point then you'd wind up with a higher net profit. Finding the ideal price point to maximize profit is a trial and error process. You can't know how much lower prices will affect sales volume until you lower them. One way to that on a trial basis is to offer limited time discounts. For example during a break between games have the PA announcer tell the crowd that for the next 15 minutes photos from the game will be available for sale at an 20% discount. Then see how that affects the line in front of the order desk.
For someone breaking into the regional market the advantage of electronic delivery would be lower fixed capital outlay on printers and less variable expense for supplies and skilled labor to operate them. There's also the time / convenience factor in a high volume event setting. People don't want to stand in line waiting unless there is a cold beer at the end of the line. Electronic delivery would produce faster customer turn-over. In some states electronic delivery of photos may also have sales tax advantages, eliminating the administrative overhead of computing, collecting and paying it to your state.
You can look at your current situation as a problem or as an opportunity. You now have a foothold in the regional event market. Whether you stub your toe or swing the door wide open and make some money doing it is just a matter of creating a product the current market of cell phone toting, Facebook posting, doting helicopter parents will be motivated to buy. My specific suggestions might not be workable for you, but are offered to make you see that other side of the coin.
p.1 #12 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
NorthernBuck wrote:
Because I obviously made an assumption and therefore a mistake. My assumption was related to what I thought I was paying for. Before this event I have always worked by percentages, offering a percent of profits to the organizer. What I have obviously learned is that when you pay a flat fee to the organizer they obviously have no vested interest in your profitability are therefore are less likely to do anything to help maximize your profit margin.
GOTCHA !!!
Bingo @ the power of vested interest / dangling carrot.
Terms, terms & more terms.
GL ... I hope it works out for you without being "too costly" a lesson. Hopefully you'll do fine, even if it is encroaching your "comfort zone". I'm rootin' for ya.
Even though it took a bit to "work through", I appreciate your sharing it ... it serves as a "reinforcing" point for myself and hopefully others as well.
p.1 #13 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
Cost of doing business.
It really is as simple as that.
My crew and I will shoot alongside PWACs at most of our events. I know that when I'm a dad at an event that my daughter's are at, I'm going to be shooting. If there is no other 'pro' there, I'll shoot for the team. If there is, I only shoot my daughter(s).
But I can't expect that from every other parent in the world. Nor do I worry about it - because I know that I do have better gear, I will have better photos and I do market better than the others.
Now certainly I can't compete with the pre-tourney plan that a dad will be covering the team and giving them away, but that is not the norm. It certainly happens but I don't lose any sleep over it.
Look at any other business. How many gas stations can be at corners of a given intersection? How many fast food chains do you see in a row along a given road? How many clothing stores are in a mall?
Exclusivity is a vary rare thing. As mentioned, get it up front... but even then, I can nearly guarantee you that it won't be enforced to the extent that you want.
Just do it better than the other 'guys' and don't worry about what you can't compete with.
Jul 13, 2012 at 12:14 PM
glort Offline • • • • [X]
p.1 #14 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
Personally I think the " you are going to do a better job and they can't compete" is another flawed Forum mentality that doesn't work out in practice.
I shot Horses which has one of the highest costs to play for any kids sport I can think of and I must have heard people justifying Crappy images they were given 100 times because they were free or someone made a fuss of giving them to them like it was some great favor. In a good amount of cases, I think being given shots of your kid and then going and buying some from the pro is actually seen as an insult to the person that gave the parent the pics in the first place so the pro looses out.
Obviously not stipulating terms at the start was a big Mistake but If it were me I'd be asking for the deposit back in a polite way that left no doubt it wasn't an option. If they Baulked, I'd ask exactly what I was getting that I had paid for that the parents hadnt. I'd also be telling the coach that although it was not discussed, neither was the subject of you running onto the court mid game to get close ups. It would be a given that when a pro shooter is paying to be there, the parents are kept at arms length.
If that's not what he'll do for you, then the implied agreement is null and void.
Fortunately I never came up against this idiotic expectation to pay to shoot games. I was asked a couple of times over the years but I deliberately laughed at the notion and told them of my standard kickback which was prizes for the raffles in the form of prints and basicaly take it or leave it. They took it and I changed their expectation. The first woman that asked me I must have shot at her grounds 8 times over the years and I recently got asked back to do their annual T&I. After the first explanation of what I offered we knew where we stood and that was it.
There was no way on this god's green earth I was going to start them thinking I would PAY to be there.
For those that do, a commission is fair enough and I would be telling the group what I expected them to do which would be entirely reasonable to help me make sales to increase their profit.
I did exactly that not 24 hours ago in a meeting with a Council manager who looks after the Swim schools I'll be shooting over the next month.
He was very much " What's in it for us?" which is fine, but I made it real clear That helping me with mentioning in emails and newsletters I would be there, what the prices of the packages were and reminders along with putting my sign age in a prominent place was the way for HIM to get more out of the exercise.
Now I fully realise that in an oversaturated market where genisus have created the expectation of payment that I might be told to shove off and someone else gets the gig.
No problem in the world!
I can sit on my arse at home in a nice comfy chair and earn nothing, I don't have to invest thousands and work my arse off to end up with the same amount.
I'd rather that the sit on my arse option because doing just that ( for a different reason) enabled me to have a good think and come up with a far more profitable venture that I am doing now which is also a load easier than event work.
It's the same for anyone else as well. If it's not worth your while doing something, or you are going to be up against the 8 ball before you start, DON'T!
Do something else that you are not shoving the proverbial up the hill with from the beginning.
p.1 #15 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
Glort,
Agreed!
My point of "don't worry about the competition" should NOT be part of a sound business plan!
But having already committed, there is no gain by forcing the issue on either the host or the parents to not shoot where they want to. You'll only alienate yourself, degrade your image and certainly turn them off for any sales.
Word of mouth of how good you do will grow a business 10x faster than bad press. But it's 10x easier to get bad press and 10x harder to get a good word in the right hands that promotes your business.
That's where I'm saying suck it up and deal with an already bad situation... don't make it worse.
p.1 #16 · Covering National Tourney - Exclusivity - What would you do?
I never offer a percentage unless I am getting something more than what any other shooter is getting. ie why would I pay to stand next to a parent that is paying nothing.
I've found that parents with good gear on the sidelines equals less sales, quality has nothing to do with it. Most won't even look at your product if they have someone shooting for them already.
I pass on open venues.
