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Archive 2012 · Tilt Lens Experience Help

  
 
photo1a
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p.1 #1 · Tilt Lens Experience Help


I am looking for information from members experienced with using a DSLR tilt shift lens for landscape photography.

I have a Canon TS-E 24mm II. I have been using the lens as a straight-on 24mm lens, and with shift for panorama photos. I have been frustrated with trying to get the tilt function down. I have read much online on this topic and am familiar with the Scheimpflug Rule. Among the online resources I have read is:
http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/HMbooks3.html

I am wondering, from experienced members, what you find to be the best method for using the tilt function. Howard Bond (see the above link) describes an iterative process of focusing on far and near objects; Harold Merklinger developed a table for determining tilt. Of course, one can use a combination of these two methods.

When it comes to focusing when using tilt, do you tilt and retilt the lens (Bond)? Do you tilt the lens using a table (after Merklinger) then change AF points for focus refinement? I have read in several places that, when using a tilt table, one can focus about 1/3 of the way into the image and achieve good results. I have also read that using a table, one can focus just about anywhere and achieve good results.

I hope that you can post a photo(s) demonstrating a condition in which using a tilt resulted in a better image than not using a tilt. (I have seen photos posted by FM members using a TS-E lens, but not stating if tilt was used.)



Jun 06, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #2 · Tilt Lens Experience Help


Although I am not an expert I will provide the following.

Most lens are sharpest at 2 stops down from wide open. f8 in this case is about sharpest. I have tested this on thedigitalpicture and confirmed. So the go to fstop is f8 unless you have some other need. And keep in mind that f4 is less sharp than f8 so why use it unless you have to.

24mm focussed at infinity, straight on will have depth of field of 8' to infinity according to the standard definition of dept of field. On full frame. Being convservative, say 20' to infinity because I am fussier than a standard person. At f11, there is not much loss in iq and this shrinks to 10' again with my conservatism. At f16, defraction starts to kick in and I am tempted to tilt.

Thus in the majority of cases the tilt is not necessary and will yield a softer picture, and it is only necessary where there is a item in the foreground closer than 10'.

So you only need a tilt when you either closer than 10' or if you need a faster shutter. I have used tilt for northern lights for this reason. Tilting permits focus from close to infinity at f4 - which permits a 15s shot at ISO 800. So night shots or fast moving clouds or night shots.

I have played with my ts17, at eye level, and concluded the focus is very sensitive to tilt and most of the time a tilt of between 1 and 3 is appropriate at eye level. Beyond 3 it you will cause some wild things to happen where you either have to choose foreground or background in focus for a pretty flat plain.

I have also tried to focus at sunset and sunrise and conluded that focussing is very difficult in liveview in the dark

All of that has brought me to a simple path of - focus near infinity (which I have found by experiment with live view to be a little to the right of the sideways L not at the right end [ but make sure you find it at tilt of 1.5]) and set it at about 1.5 down and fire away.

[I find the shift is far more useful than the tilt. Shift helps fix perspective and is fantastic for pano's. ]

So the summary is on TS17, 99% of shots are with shift not tilt to maximize iq. Tilt should be small and only used where items are close (rare) or much faster shutter is needed (night time). You are better to figure out a rule of thumb than trying to focus with a formula unless you are smarter than me in real time, because in real time it too complicated and dark to focus. The rule of thumb is at eye level 2 marks down and focus at infintity and at 1' above ground 7 (guess) marks down.

Of course this logic is not appropriate at ts45 or ts90 where depth drops considerably.

I am new to my lens so if I am wrong please let me know.

Fred Miranda is much more experience in this area. PM him and get him to provide advice.



Edited on Jun 06, 2012 at 08:16 PM · View previous versions



Jun 06, 2012 at 02:31 PM
photo1a
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p.1 #3 · Tilt Lens Experience Help


Thanks much, Scott. I will try what you suggest.


Jun 06, 2012 at 02:40 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #4 · Tilt Lens Experience Help


I have the 17 and 24TSE and have been using then for a couple years. The 17 is my most used lens, the 24 much less after getting the 17. Just a matter of focal length, the 24 is actually easier to use, but the 17 is more often needed.

I read all the tables for tilting but found that what works best is live view focusing. The 1DS-mk3 LCD is the oldest and least capable of the live view screens, the 5D-mk2 is much better.

I start by focusing at something at distance using focus confirm and then tilt for something near. I go back and check the distant part at 5X (10x just shows a bunch of large pixels).

Be sure to micro adjust. I find it matters which way you work. I always start at infinity and work towards close when using focus confirm. You have to do this before tilting or shifting, it does not work properly once either are used.

Be sure to check the mid distance edges, I find this more sensitive to focus than near or far.

If you have something tall in the foreground, you are better off not tilting. If you have a downslope near the camera, you may need more tilt than expected.

I like f8. It is plenty sharp and offers lots of DOF. If you are shooting from a standing position with a level camera, your nearest ground level object will be within DOF at hyperfocal and you won't even need to tilt. I only use tilt when I am at a lower position.

I use shift a lot more than tilt. This allows me to keep everything straight and gets a lower appearant position while still standing. Some tilt may be required in this case. Alost never more than 1 degree.

When I am at a low position and have near subjects that extend 1/3 up (vertical) the scene, focus stack works better than tilt.





Jun 06, 2012 at 02:45 PM
photo1a
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p.1 #5 · Tilt Lens Experience Help


Thanks, Ben.


Jun 06, 2012 at 06:34 PM
Roland W
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p.1 #6 · Tilt Lens Experience Help


I am a strong believer in using a tilt table either as a starting point for further focusing, or even as the method for the final tilt setting for a scene. Every real situation is going to depend on how "flat" the tilted image plane is that you are trying to shoot, and of course the tilted depth of field you have available to make your capture. And you are going to need to have a pretty good visulation of what tilted plane of focus you want, and realize that the better the scene fits on to a tilted plane of foucs, the better luck you will have with tilt.

For situations where you have the time and have a camera with good live view, go ahead and start off with a tilt based on your estimate or measurement of the camera to tilted plane of foucs distance, and then check and adjust focus to see how it works. You will often find that the table tilt was right on, or would have been good enough to capture things. Remember to consider the actual depth of field, and use live view with the depth of field preview to verify if things various things will look good.

As you develop more experience, or if you need to make the shot quickly, and if you are reasonable at estimating distances, you can set the tilt using a tilt table and an estimated distance to the desired tilted plane of focus, and set you focus using the focus distance scale and the 1/3rd into the image rule, and stop down a little, and you will likely do very well. Or if you want to verify focus, just setting it by bringing a single point of the image into focus can also work fine. It is usually best to choose your main subject if you can to focus on, or if it is a landscape that does not really have a main subject, just pick the center point of the image, as long as that point is fairly typical of being close to on the desired plane of focus.

One thing about the TS-E manual focus lenses is that the focus ring has a nice long scale and turns a long way to go over the full range of foucs. That means that you can easily set focus distance accurately from measured or estimated distance. And another feature that is on the lens is a very usable depth of field scale. This is something that really disapeared when auto focus came to lenses, but for the TS-E's, you can use the depth of field marks to choose a hyperfocal focus setting, or better estimate other depth of field ranges. When you tilt, the distance and depth of field scales are not fully accurate, but for the wide angle TS-E lenses and low tilt angles the scales are still pretty close, and can be very helpful.

The first time I really tried the tilt table method, I set the tilt and then looked through the viewfinder as I slowly focused. I was amazed to see three focus squares, all in a line along the desired plane of focus, all light up at the same time. I was so supprised that I tried it again and again, and it always worked as long as I did not try to adjust the foucs too fast. A tilt table is a pure geometry thing, and is actually never "wrong", so with good estimating and visualizing, it is very valuable.



Jun 06, 2012 at 06:52 PM
photo1a
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p.1 #7 · Tilt Lens Experience Help


Thanks, again for all of your replies. One additional comment or question from me.

When I read about "focus point," I am uncertain whether one is referring to focusing on an object or position in the image using center point in the lens, or whether one is using a "focus point" as described in the operating manual for the camera -- that is, one square out of the set of squares that can be selected for focusing.




Jun 07, 2012 at 11:26 AM





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