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Archive 2012 · Gear vs Talent...

  
 
jerrykur
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p.8 #1 · Gear vs Talent...


bobbytan wrote:
Would it make a difference if I called it "a good eye" instead of talent? Picture this scenario - you have a group of say 10 technically-competent photographers - by that I mean every single one understand good lighting and exposure, etc. But invariably there will be 1 or 2 who really stand out and they keep delivering images with that WOW factor. Why? Because they have this inherent ability to see images that most of us do not see - at the same location and at the same time.


I don't this is generally the case. If you look at any sport or art, the people that do the best are the ones that practice. If you want to get good are reading light and composing images you need to read light and compose images over and over. Be very critical of the results and alter technique to get better results. Repeat over and over. As they say if you want to get to Carnegie Hall, practice.

Read through some of Joe McNally's or other photographers works and I think you will see a recurring of shooting a lot. Another good resource is Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers. He points out that in general it take 1,000 hours to be competent, but 10,000 hour to get really good at an activity.



May 19, 2012 at 01:03 PM
Jayem2
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p.8 #2 · Gear vs Talent...


I don't this is generally the case. If you look at any sport or art, the people that do the best are the ones that practice

Not to discount hard work, I just know no matter how hard I work at it, I could never be Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant for that matter. They are top NBA players for a reason. Of course, if they don't work hard, they won't be there either.



May 19, 2012 at 01:10 PM
anthonygh
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p.8 #3 · Gear vs Talent...


I am surprised this is still going....it was a throwaway post after a bottle of wine and an annoying chat to someone.

The last comments are interesting to me...having run a college photography department for some years in London.

I am not sure that genius can be taught..but I 100% believe that good tuition brings out the full potential in someone. But to paraphrase a genius (Michaelangelo)....'it is the little things that make perfection.....perfection is no little thing'.

One only has to look at the work of, say Ansel Adams, to see the truth in that. And as someone who has attended a major AAdams exhibition in London, and been amazed at the sheer quality of the prints...I seriously doubt that those images would have been better taken on a 5D3...that applies to the early large format and the later 6X6 blad pics.

I maintain my proposition that photographers are, in the main. being seduced by manufacturers and sites like this to spend unnecessary money on gear when other avenues will lead them to the creation of better images.

Edited on May 20, 2012 at 11:13 AM · View previous versions



May 19, 2012 at 01:23 PM
n0b0
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p.8 #4 · Gear vs Talent...


surf monkey wrote:
Has there been any discussion on what constitutes "talent"?
If we eliminate skill, hard work and luck, what's left?
Can a "good eye" be learned through experience?
In photography what constitutes "creativity"?


Talent helps you learn faster and allows you to reach higher level than most people... provided that you actually work hard for it.

IMHO, Creativity in photography is to introduce or to combine elements inside a photo that makes it look more interesting than the reality. eg. Using Tilt to shoot a busy railway station to make it look like a diorama. An example of indirect method may be to use a bait on a spider to capture its predatory behaviour in a macro shot. Or maybe even during post processing by converting a photo to B&W, HDR, etc.



May 19, 2012 at 01:35 PM
OntheRez
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p.8 #5 · Gear vs Talent...



Rustybug
Right tool ... right job.

[snip]

I really like using my 24L TS-E II ... but I can likewise use my Oly 24/2.8 (non-T&S applications).



This question has obviously generated a lot of interest. I come from multiple disciplines (master carpenter, PhD in statistics, shade tree mechanic, writer, designer, and now a part time pro photographer).

At the heart of successful creation is skill. It is not "the eye," "the knack," "the inborn capacity," or even "the great inspiration." It is skill based upon the vast expenditure of time, experience, failure, adaptation, and, yes, success. I have built multi-million dollar hand-crafted homes. They are things of immense beauty. Over my 40 years of building, I've collected probably $50,000 in tools. I literally can do everything to build a home. On the other hand I always carry a shovel, an ax, a small bundle of 16d nails, nylon cord, and some plastic tarp in my truck. With skill and these crude tools I can create shelter that would probably allow me to survive in almost any climate (assuming I can get food, fuel, and water).

In photography I have even longer been in the quixotic search for the "true" image, whatever true might mean. I don't have near the investment in photo gear mostly because the pay back for photos remains poor.

I've gotten better. Was it just better equipment? No doubt it helped. The move to digital gave a liberation that I never felt with film. On my ancient Leica IIIc every click took something out of me cause it cost, first to take and then to develop and most important the wait between snap and pix where I had to try to remember what I did and why. In a similar vein - though I wrote well back in notebook and typewriter days - the liberation of the first word processor (in the early 80's) was incredible. It affected how I wrote and bluntly how well I wrote. The masters all say, "writing is rewriting." In a three ring binder or with an old Smith-Corona, rewriting "hurt." With a word processor, I could just get the ideas down then go back and make it good unconcerned about errors along the way. The break thru of this technology allowed me the ability to make mistakes that were instructive but not painful. I wrote more, made more mistakes, created more things, and in the end am a far better writer, both because I honed the skill and because the technology assisted me.

The digital camera was the same sort of moment. Yes, a skilled, purposeful, master photographer can find an image no matter what equipment she uses. Better tools create more opportunities and greater "efficiencies" by which I mean the ability to not get it right enough times to finally get what you see.

Until just recently I've never owned the "latest, greatest, best" photo gear of any kind. Frankly can't afford it. Still, by carefully buying used 1, 2, sometimes 3 revisions back, I have equipment so good that failure to capture a "true" image is my fault not the gear. I developed a small but respectable following as a landscape and - for want of a better word - "art" photographer.

This all changed last September when the editor of our small (very) town newspaper approached me about shooting and reporting on high school sports. I'd done quite a lot of nature photography, had a superb 1D IIn (bought used and relatively cheap), a very old 70-200 f/2.8L and an equally old 300 f/4.0L. I figured it would be something that would require learning, but not basically different than what I already knew. WRONG!

Capturing motion in the dark is a whole other world from birds in flight. The lighting on the home field has been generously described as "not too bad for a tomb." My gear pushed to its absolute limits was not able capture the action crisply. H*ll, many times it couldn't even find focus in the gloom if things were moving very fast. I only survived because (1) I did some truly creative (one might say obscene) things in post and (2) the paper prints in a black and white process (65 line screen) so old that the publisher refers to it as "having all the subtlety of smearing tar on canvas." In other words the print process destroys the detail.

There are moments out at the limits were gear does inform even a good photographer's ability to get the shot. I stumbled thru the end of the football season, but when faced with the lighting in the gym for VB and BB it was obvious my much loved IIn just wasn't going to make it nor was f/2.8 enough.

After a lot of scrambling, adapting, and spending money I didn't really have, I ended up shooting the three seasons with a 1DIII and 50, 85, and 135 primes. As you can imagine a great deal of learning took place.

This narrative boils down to what everyone already knows: gear does not make the photographer. (Back in my ski patrol days we used to say, "Ain't the skis it's the knees.) On the other hand when one pushes past his/her comfort level, one can find that better gear (read newer with greater capability and therefore more expensive) becomes necessary to survive. Am I ready for football in less than 3 months? Not really. I certainly would be better served by a 1DIV and a 200mm f/2.0L. Neither are going to happen so it will be primes, highest ISO possible, probably a monopod, and lots of weird mojo in post. I actually look forward to making my "archaic" gear do the job.

Robert






May 19, 2012 at 01:41 PM
bobbytan
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p.8 #6 · Gear vs Talent...


And I will never be as good as Galen Rowell was or Thomas Mangelson, no matter how hard I try.

Jayem1 wrote:
Not to discount hard work, I just know no matter how hard I work at it, I could never be Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant for that matter. They are top NBA players for a reason. Of course, if they don't work hard, they won't be there either.




May 19, 2012 at 01:49 PM
anthonygh
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p.8 #7 · Gear vs Talent...


Mozart was a composer and performer to royalty at the age of five...I rest my case that there is a huge gulf between genius and mere talent.

Anyone who is in doubt can find numerous examples..(Picasso and Michaelangelo for two) who were doing amazing work pre-puberty.



May 19, 2012 at 01:56 PM
Dragonfire
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p.8 #8 · Gear vs Talent...


I told my step-father "don't marry my mother, she is a witch" when I was five.

He never forgot and always wished he had listened.

Who knew



May 19, 2012 at 02:05 PM
anthonygh
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p.8 #9 · Gear vs Talent...


Psychic1 wrote:
I told my step-father "don't marry my mother, she is a witch" when I was five.

He never forgot and always wished he had listened.

Who knew


My wife's best friends hinted something similar to me.....unfortunately I thought they were just jealous...turned out they actually were concerned for me.....



May 19, 2012 at 02:15 PM
Dragonfire
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p.8 #10 · Gear vs Talent...


I also told him "die at your desk" and three years after he retired he was dead.

His last words were "Frank, get me out of here"

I'm Frank



May 19, 2012 at 02:38 PM
RDKirk
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p.8 #11 · Gear vs Talent...


anthonygh wrote:
Mozart was a composer and performer to royalty at the age of five...I rest my case that there is a huge gulf between genius and mere talent.

Anyone who is in doubt can find numerous examples..(Picasso and Michaelangelo for two) who were doing amazing work pre-puberty.


And Joey L kicked my butt the first time he picked up a camera.



May 19, 2012 at 03:30 PM
bobbytan
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p.8 #12 · Gear vs Talent...


I think no one will disagree with this. Great gear by itself does not make a photographer great BUT (a) it facilitates the picture-taking process, (b) increases one's keeper rate, (c) improves the final results, and (c) greatly enhances the experience and enjoyment of photography. The last point cannot be over-stated and is the main reason why most of us hang out in the gear forum.

OntheRez wrote:
This narrative boils down to what everyone already knows: gear does not make the photographer.





May 19, 2012 at 04:57 PM
bobbytan
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p.8 #13 · Gear vs Talent...


Maybe so, but no amount of voice training and coaching will make me sing or sound ... even remotely ... like Andrea Bocelli.

15Bit wrote:
I'm not sure either the music industry or the music-buying public agree with you on this...




May 19, 2012 at 06:51 PM
Deezie
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p.8 #14 · Gear vs Talent...


Certain gear is necessary depending on the client's output. That said, the most important gear is the sensor between your ears. The best photographers I know are compulsive and can't let something go until they've reached the zenith of their idea. You can teach anyone to meter and compose a shot in a relatively short time, but you cannot teach them taste - and you cannot teach them to create an unyielding vision that springs to life in their mind's eye. Vision cannot be taught. It is a compulsion that spills out of the artist whether he or she likes it or not. It is a gift. Some have it. Some don't - no matter how badly that wish for it.


May 19, 2012 at 06:57 PM
Jayem2
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p.8 #15 · Gear vs Talent...


I think people are confused between talents and skills.

Skills are acquired whereas talents are traits that people are born with.



May 19, 2012 at 07:40 PM
jojomon11
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p.8 #16 · Gear vs Talent...


Imagemaster wrote:
Who cares, and what does it matter Shoot with whatever gear makes you (or your clients) happy.


+1 just freakin shoot and do your thing!



May 19, 2012 at 07:43 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #17 · Gear vs Talent...


anthonygh wrote:
I am surprised this is still going....it was a throwaway post after a bottle of wine and an annoying chat to someone.

The last comments are interesting to me...having run a college photography department for some years in London.

I am not sure that genius can be taught..but I 100% believe that good tuition brings out the full potential in someone. But to paraphrase a genius (Michaelangelo)....'it is the small things that make perfection.....perfection is no little thing'.

One only has to look at the work of, say Ansel Adams, to see the truth in that. And as someone who has attended a
...Show more

I generally agree.

Please, I hope no one comes back with the usual "[fill in the name of great photographer]'s photographs wouldn't be as good if he/she used a Brownie." I know that, but that isn't the point.

The point is that some (though perhaps none of you?) imagine that owning the very best gear is the important thing. Owning good gear is important if you do serious photography, but owning the very best gear (as in the new thing that is 1% better than the thing you have) usually isn't that important.

Someone mentioned practice, a subject that I think is very important. After a certain point, investment in time will do far more for your photography than further investment in equipment. There are all sorts of reasons for this: making the technical stuff become nearly intuitive, recognizing interesting subjects more readily and more quickly, having a stockpile of experience with what does and does not work, a certain "suppleness" about the act of photographing.

So we have several things that need to be in place:

1. Decent and appropriate equipment.
2. Technical skill approaching mastery.
3. Experience with what does and does not work.

But still, there is this "talent" thing. I happen to believe in it. I don't think it is a binary, as in you have it or you don't, but I'm utterly convinced that some have more or less of it than others or have particular types of it. Some just have a "way of seeing." (I think of one of my sons, who at the age of about 5 or 6 stunned me with a pencil drawing of a landscape subject that I could not have created if I had tried... and no one had taught him a thing about this.)

I also think that not everyone with talent or a natural way of seeing knows it, and not everyone can exhibit it without some inducement. I've known people with a great deal of visual talent who did not realize that they had it. And I've met others who only figured it out after a great deal of hard work. But ultimately, the thing that makes an artist is not an objective, trained thing. Yes, the training is important. But eventually one has to develop an inner and intuitive sense that goes well beyond the objective stuff. (For those fond of looking to Ansel for a model, if you have read him and about him, you know that behind the tremendous technical skill was a fundamental natural sense of what works along with some almost mystical notions about the quality of light and so forth - very definitely not fully left-brained stuff.)

But talent alone won't do it either. Eventually, I think it is a combination of all of these things - the three in my list are important even to the person who has natural talent. But that talent, or whatever you want to call it, is the thing that eventually makes the biggest difference I think.

By the way, I've spent a career in the arts - music and photography - including doing both extensively and teaching music at the college level. Among most of the people I know who make their lives as artists there is a great recognition that mastering of the technical skills is important. However, there is also a very clear recognition that your "perfected" technical skill is essentially the admission ticket to begin making art, but that it is not the core of art making at all. (Going back to Ansel again, this is the "sharp photograph of a fuzzy concept" thing.)

Dan



May 19, 2012 at 09:47 PM
splathrop
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p.8 #18 · Gear vs Talent...


It's a complicated answer.

There are people doing substantial bodies of work in sports, stage shoots, wildlife, and even some landscape, that could only have been captured fractionally (as statistically rare freak shots), with the gear of two or three decades ago.

On the other hand, light, composition, and a quick eye are more important than gear, given any particular gear.

And whatever gear you have, there ought to be an endless supply of good images within reach of your equipment.

Paradoxically, a varied supply of gear probably does more to increase your available images if you are limiting the kind of subject matter you shoot. If you were open to try any subject, then a talented person who can compose a shot and knows good light when he sees it could become a great photographer with a point and shoot.



May 20, 2012 at 12:10 AM
JetEye
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p.8 #19 · Gear vs Talent...


I make a living by developing software. I also enjoy photography although I was told by my wife that I am not a good photographer. I do enjoy technology and consider myself as an “early adopter.” When a new technology becomes available I tend to evaluate the specification and purchase if it looks interesting enough and if I have enough “want” factors. I do own latest camera, notebooks, iPad, iPhone, etc. etc….

If a person is purchasing a top of the line computer for a home, should I tell them that they don’t need it because they are not a computer professional? If a non-professional golfer is purchasing a top of the line golf gears, should I tell that person not to buy because it is “pro grade” gears? Should I tell my friend not to buy a sports car because you can only go as fast as the posted speed limit and buying a fast sports car doesn’t do him any good?

I agree that buying the better gear does not make me a better photographer and using better photo gears cannot make up lack of talent; I am a living proof. However, I don’t think anyone can tell me what not to buy because I am not a professional photographer.



May 20, 2012 at 05:55 AM
RDKirk
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p.8 #20 · Gear vs Talent...


However, I don’t think anyone can tell me what not to buy because I am not a professional photographer.

Who in this thread attempted to tell you that?



May 20, 2012 at 08:01 AM
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