I'm sorry if this post is a bit Canon gear oriented, but I wanted the opinions of wedding shooters specifically.
In my photo business, I do Portraits, Events, Theatre, Industrial and (bit of) Sports. I currently shoot 5D + 40D (both still working great). For Events, Theatre and Sports I want better high ISO. I'd like 12800 to be usable for selling to clients.
I'm fairly new to weddings (done two) but I really like doing it and I want to learn more and start doing more of them.
I'm trying to decide which camera to replace my 40D. My 5D I will keep. So it will be either:
- 5D + 5DmkIII or
- 5D + 1DmkIV.
As you may understand, it's a trade off because I won't be using it only for weddings. For Events and Sports a little more reach is nice so I was considering a mkIV. Then the 5DmkIII came out and now I'm trying to decide what to do.
Some considerations:
- over here, a 1DmkIV and a gripped 5DmkIII cost about the same
- I don't really need 10 fps, my 40D was quick enough, just too noisy
- My portrait lens is a 70-200mkII. Want to buy 85L.
- My wedding lenses are 16-35II, 35L, 70-200mkII. May want to buy 50L.
- I make money with portraits and industrial, not with sports
- If shooting weddings works out, it will become a significant part of my shooting
- I can't stretch for both cameras. Maybe get one now and get the other one in 3 years
I think 5DmkIII is the best multipurpose camera, it's latest tech and 2 FF sounds more straightforward and thus better for the thinking head.
However, I'd like to know how many of you shoot weddings using FF + 1.3crop combo. How do you work your lenses around? Which lenses do you get? Does it have certain advantages?
I haven't purchased the 50L and 85L yet.
IMO the 85L is a poor wedding lens, especially compared with the 70-200. Save the cash. If sports doesn't make any cash I'd say 5DIII and a 1DsII sounds like a good combo.
Consider the Sigma 50 and 85 lenses if you're still after primes in those FLs.
Hi SP12,
If I get a 5DIII I'll pair it up to my 5Dclassic, not a 1Ds2. Anyway you are suggesting a pair of FF cameras, so that answers my question. Thanks for that! Any specific arguments why no 1.3crop?
About the 85L:
The 85L looks to me like a good portrait lens. And I make money from portraits, so it looks like a good investment. If it turns out to be a poor wedding lens, I can just leave it at home. However, don't you shoot portraits at weddings too?
If your making your money on portraits, industrial and possibly weddings I would go for the 5DIII. It has plenty of resolution and does very well at hi-iso. With the 16-35, 35L and 70-200mkII I think you would do well. You can always purchase the 24L, 50L, 85L or whatever lens you want when finances permit. Just my opinion.
But if not, why not just go with another 5D and save the extra cash for lenses and other expenses? I ask because there isn't anything you listed in the original post that requires either of the cameras you're thinking of upgrading to. And given the choice, I'd much rather have two of the same cameras for wedding work.
rabbitmountain wrote:
Hi SP12,
If I get a 5DIII I'll pair it up to my 5Dclassic, not a 1Ds2. Anyway you are suggesting a pair of FF cameras, so that answers my question. Thanks for that! Any specific arguments why no 1.3crop?
About the 85L:
The 85L looks to me like a good portrait lens. And I make money from portraits, so it looks like a good investment. If it turns out to be a poor wedding lens, I can just leave it at home. However, don't you shoot portraits at weddings too?
Well, there's just not many cases where I feel that 1.3x is enough of an advantage outside of sports. For wildlife I find APS-C better, and for basically everything else FF is preferable. If 6FPS is enough with your 5DIII what advantage does the 1DIV provide besides higher pixel density/1D quality? Certainly not IQ or AF.
That said, I do very much like some specific lenses with APS-H bodies -- the 24L and 50L. I personally feel that the ~30 and ~65mm EFLs are very powerful perspectives not available with other format sizes.
I've used the 85L, and it's a good lens. However, at F1.2 it has all the qualms you expect with a 1.2 tele -- subject movement, too-shallow DoF, precision of focus. Digital bodies don't really see much benefit with lenses faster than F/2, and especially faster than 1.4 (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/F-stop-blues), so IMO the faster AF and lower price of the Sigma 85 made the 85L a very hard sell for me personally, and once I moved off the concept of an L prime for an L prime I found my 70-200 did basically 90% of what I wanted from an 85mm prime, and a ton more from 70-200.
It's really a personal choice. I think the most 'versatile' combo might be an older FF (I'm partial to the 1DsII, but the 5D does fine) with the 1DIV. 10 FPS might get your shots you might not otherwise, and the 1DIV is clearly the best sports body. On the other hand it doesn't have the same DoF capabilities of a FF body, nor the IQ to match a 5DIII.
I'm not convinced any of the cameras you mentioned will reliably deliver sellable ISO 12800 images.
Not sure such a camera exists and the only one I can think of that may come close won't work with the lenses you mentioned.
I could be wrong though... Or you and I may have different standards for what is a sellable image.
@lisy78: everyone has different standards, I agree. Sellable means I can use the 12800 image in a wedding album @30x30cm. I know I see more imperfections than my clients do and the composition and freshness of the faces add much more weight than a little noise. However, noise should be within reason. If it comes to the point where a client says "this image looks bad" because of the noise it's gone too far. Based on what I've read from the 5DIII it should work OK @12800, even if I'd have to switch to B/W for the worst noise levels.
@sp12 / tobicus: I feel I need better noise performance than 5D / 1DsII. In our country people often have ceremonies in very dark churches or city hall rooms. I suppose it's this way everywhere sometimes. It's one of the reasons I bought the 35L, to shoot it @f/2 or even 1.4 if light levels get real low. For the 50-100 mm range the fastest lens I have is my 70-200/2.8 zoom and ISO 3200 just won't cut it sometimes: 1/40th~1/60th it's like roulette: I need luck for the subjects to stay still. 1/125th~1/200 is what would be more reliable and thus 2 stops faster, so 12800 ISO.
@all Nikon adverts: As a former Nikon user I'd be happy to use Nikon, no problem. I'm just too heavily invested in Canon and i don't want to jump ship. Just curious: does D700 do 12800 well for weddings? I know D800 would, but so would 5DIII I hope.
Wow. Too many lenses for my taste... and 85 L is poor wedding lens
To OP... ditch the zooms, buy the f/1.4 primes and f/1.2. All the bodies you listed are more than capable of producing excellent results.
Mixing 5D and 1D might get you in trouble regarding settings and different changes when 'in action' at the wedding. If you want to use two lenses on two bodies get the same bodies.
I use one or two 1D bodies (1,3x crop) with fixed lenses.
So I'm getting some mixed vibes here. General advice is to have two identical bodies. So I could see the following options:
Budget 2012: 4000 Euro.
Budget 2013: 2000 Euro.
Option 1: Full Frame only. Two options:
1A: sell 40D, get gripped 5D3 and no lenses (3600 Euro), get 50L and 85L next year.
configuration: 5D3 + 16-35ii/70-200ii / 5D + 35L
1B: sell 40D, get 5D3 (no grip) + 50L (4300 Euro), get 85L next year
configuration: 5D3 + 35L + 16-35ii/70-200ii / 5D + 50L
Option 2: 1.3 crop only
Sell 40D and 5D, get 1DmkIV + used 1DmkIII and no lenses (4500 Euro), get another lens next year
Configuration: 1DmkIV + 16-35ii + 70-200ii / 1DmkIII + 35L (too tight?)
I might need to get a 24L? this option is eating up more budget + I'll have to get lucky getting a good AF 1DIII
Option 3: mix FF and 1.3 crop
Sell 40D and get 1DIV and no lenses (3700 Euro), get 50L or next year.
Configuration: 1DmkIV + 16-35ii + 70-200ii / 5D + 35L + 70-200ii
I'll have effective 21-45 + 70-260mm
I'm leaning towards 1B. It's mainly because of the silent modes on the 5D3 plus I feel 5D3 AF is as good or better than 1DIV AF and 5D3 ISO performance is even better than 1DIV. Additionally, I never used a crop camera ever (I switched from Nikon F6 film to 1DsII+5D digital).
I used to shoot weddings with ff, 1.3 and 1.6 at the same time. Those three sensor sizes, coupled with the trinity of zooms (for me it was mk1 16-35 and 70-200 2.8is) gave me the versatility to have ultra wide (16-35 on ff) and telephoto (70-200 on 1.6).
I didn't have a problem switching between the three bodies. I found that I could overlap focal lengths and be covered in a failure. I mainly carried the 1.0 and 1.3 bodies. That was what most situations presented. My most common focal lengths were 24-70 and 70-200.
I like shooting tight. Sometimes that's a problem, because you don leave enough crop room or different file sizes.
Given your choices above, and seeing as how sports isn't a money maker for you, I would get the 5d3.
I chose the 1div over the 5d3. I bought a pair of them and now shoot just those two at weddings. I find that I would like a touch wider, and I'll buy again, a 16-35.
I shoot sports and while it's not a money making venture on its own, I am
Actually picking up prospective clients based on my sports abilities.
Cost wasn't the issue (I think even with a grip, the 1div and 5d3 are similar in price).
It was I like the build, features and added "benefits" of the 1d series over the 5d3.
If in time I find that I'm shooting less sports, and the 5d3 af is clearly superior (reports are about 50/50) I may switch. The number 1 problem for me was, why couldn't it be 8fps. (5d). I would've probably had a harder time deciding.
5DIII ordered. No signs of stock though here in the Netherlands. I will let it arrive first (could take a couple of months) and then see if I get a used 85LmkI or new 50L to go with it.
Thanks everyone for all the input. My decision has been made, I was on the right track.
No problem rabbit. You pmed and I have no problem offering my advice/opinions.
I am not as exciting a photographer as some of the other guys on the fm wedding forum, but I'm always glad to lend my advice.
The way I see it is, we are all in this because we enjoy it and some of us choose to pursue income from it. We are all looking to get better. I'm always learning new tips by book, forum or website.
So as the tests point out that the 5DIII high ISO is a tad better than the mkIV, I should be able to get 11x11 full page images in albums. Spreads may be a stretch, but images that are suitable for spreads are usually taken at lower ISO's, so that's not a problem.
Thanks for sharing that, as it confirms my decision.
I think 5d III 12.800 full page images will look fine if properly exposed.
About availability here in the Netherlands: they are starting to get back in stock here and there. Fotobooms in Amsterdam did get in a small supply (already gone); so did Cameratools.
next year.