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Archive 2012 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildin...

  
 
ken.vs.ryu
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p.3 #1 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


I'd bet that the framing cost about the same as the stock print.


May 15, 2012 at 10:58 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #2 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


KaaX wrote:
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/05/how-shutterstock-made-120-million-last-year-selling-photos-on-the-internet/257172/

:-)


"From an investment perspective, the most obvious red flag, though, is that their revenues have more than doubled in the last several years, but their net income has been stagnant. They're having to spend a lot more money on sales and marketing than they did back in 2008. If that trend continues, something will have to change on the revenue side."

My take on it is they're setting up the IPO to cash out. They're running into the same problems traditional high-end agencies such as Corbis and Getty have - other players undermining the market with increasingly cheaper prices, forcing them to dramatically increase volume (and likely eventually decrease royalty percentages to contributors) just to maintain net income.

It's an interesting illustration though. While their net profit of around $20m was less than what they paid out to contributors, the payout was spread out to more than 35,000. So, one entity received $20m and those who did most of the work (content creation) got peanuts. Seems like the typical work/profit arrangement, just with a modern digital twist. One other question though. On gross sales of $120m, deducting their net income and contributor payout results in operating costs of $60m. I'm curious where that money went. Perhaps as noted for advertising, but also infrastructure costs such as servers, bandwidth, etc., perhaps on Amazon's AWS or similar...



May 15, 2012 at 11:05 AM
15Bit
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p.3 #3 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


rscheffler wrote:
I'm curious where that money went. Perhaps as noted for advertising, but also infrastructure costs such as servers, bandwidth, etc., perhaps on Amazon's AWS or similar...


Maintaining an infrastructure to serve out that many images and do the associated finances can't be cheap.

My interpretation is the same as yours - they are cashing out. If even the microstock sites are finding it tough, things must be looking bad.

RustyBug wrote:
... the allure of "free" pictures is a powerful thing.


And its not going to get any weaker in the future.

Oddly enough the last time i noticed the artwork in a hospital it was large prints obviously sourced from a local photographer - the prints were of the countryside in the local area. I was quite impressed, though i have no idea how much they paid for the work.



May 15, 2012 at 11:16 AM
artd
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p.3 #4 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


HopeIsEternal wrote:
With all this talk about the need in the forums for 36mpx AA-less cameras like the Nikon D800E, I been wondering what "professional" photographers who actually sell artwork use and what determines the ability to get a photo sold for money.

First, there is a difference between being selling artwork and being a professional artist. And then there is a difference between being a professional artist and a professional photographer. There can certainly be overlap in certain instances but they are different pursuits.


I've seen tons of great, technically excellent pictures from amateurs on photo forums like this one but yet each time I go into a commercial building and find photographs hanging on the wall, the photographs are not really sharp or as technically competent as the stuff I find here and on Flickr. In fact many times the photographs would be laughed out of many of the photo forums including this one for exposure problems, lack of sharpness, noise/grain, perspective distortion etc..

Why is this?

One reason is that it is a lot harder to make a good print than to make a good web-sized photo. A lot of those nice looking Flickr photos might not look so good as big prints either.

I used to co-own a photography gallery and I got to witness this firsthand. I have seen a lot of photographers who are very creative and have good compositional skills, and also a lot who were obviously very good with Photoshop. But they were not always good at understanding the printing process. The first problem was everyone seemed to want to print bigger than what was reasonable for the camera they were using. (Of course this was back in the days before the Canon 5DII, and high resolution DSLRs were not so commonplace.) What should be an 8x12 photo at most was getting blown up to 12x18, 16x24 or more. People would assume that because the photos looked nice on their computer screen, they will look good as a gallery print.

I did the same thing myself. A local gallery I worked with brokered a deal with a hospital to buy six of my prints. In a gallery setting I was displaying these as 10x15 prints which is as big as I felt I could go. The problem is the hospital wanted them twice as big. I explained to them about quality degradation when you print bigger but they didn’t care about that as long as the prints looked nice from a distance. So that’s what I gave them (although there was one lower resolution print they wanted that I flat out said no I just can’t do that). The prints would not be acceptable in a gallery setting. But the hospital was not a gallery, they looked fine from a distance, and the hospital was happy.

And even with modern high megapixel DSLRs like a 5DII, that just doesn’t mean you can print as big as you want without suffering image quality loss. I recently did 24x36 prints for an office conference room. They were not fine art prints by any means, they were photos of engineering projects. And they do not look that good close up. But they look fine from far away. And since it is a conference room, not an art gallery, everyone is happy with them. (As an aside, I have made 24x36 prints for gallery display, but they take a lot more care and work in capture and processing).

The other thing to keep in mind is that in a lot of cases the photos are not printed by the photographers. Sometimes they are printed by an admin person on their company’s plotter. I have seen a lot of that. And a lot of times the photos are not done by professional photographers either. Someone who works in the building has a bunch of photos they snapped with their point and shoot and they print them on the company plotter and stick them in a frame.


Does anyone know the process used by building managers, architects, interior designers etc.. to select photographic artwork to hang in buildings? What kind of prices do these photographs go for and are the photographs and the prices justified more by the cachet of the artist's name than by the content?

I imagine it’s different in every case. Sometimes someone at the company knows a photographer (professional or not) who they get to put their photos in there. Sometimes someone in the building just prints their own photos (see my above paragraph). Sometimes a building tenant will actually look for a bona fide artist, but will not always want to pay for one. A local art gallery had referred me to a company looking to buy original artwork for one of their new buildings in town. In the initial exchange they liked my work and so asked for prices for some fairly large prints. So I then I gave them the prices…and that was the last I heard from them.


Finally what does this say about amateurs and our unsatisfiable lust for more resolution, more details, more contrast, larger dynamic range etc.. if the pictures that people consider worth paying money for seem to have been shot with in JPG mode on 5mpx cameras?

It says that in a general, non-art gallery environment, content is usually more important than quality. But: in a gallery setting, that desire for better image quality is not wasted.



May 15, 2012 at 11:20 AM
RustyBug
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p.3 #5 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


ken.vs.ryu wrote:
I'd bet that the framing cost about the same as the stock print.


Yes, it's interesting that the material, equipment, training, experience, talent and overhead of a framer is offset with real $$$.

Yet, the same aspects of material, equipment, training, experience, talent and overhead of a photographer are perceived (by many) as nearly worthless (i.e. expectation of "free"), when a prolific vastness of images are offered up at a "loss" by the masses. Sadly, the masses continue to do so by virtue of their lack of business consideration, perpetuating the whole.

What the market will bear ... and as long as the market has "free" and "very cheap" offerings from sellers of their goods, there will be buyers looking to do business with them in a perfunctory realm. For those looking to be sellers of something more, it's a challenging market to contend with.

I'm not saying that there is only "doom & gloom" for the industry ... but I am saying that the tenets of talent vs. the tenets of business are not as "equitable" as the OP's questions would suggest they should be. One is idealistic ... the other is realistic. We can hold on to ideals, or contend with reality.

My reality is that if I wanted my images in the hospital on display, I was going to have to give them away for free. My ideals deterred me from doing so ... good move vs. bad move ... debatable for differing points. But, that's a reality that exists in my "neck of the woods" ... elsewhere, things may be the same or different, but I share it for some perspective.

It was definitely a "one way" street ... and people seem lined up to join the party ... but those people (imo) do not care "two-hoots" @ sustainable business endeavors.

Funny thing ... I'm going out west and have to pay $$$ to be able to take a picture @ Antelope Canyon, yet no matter how talented of an image I return with, there will still be thousands of other pictures of Antelope Canyon that can be had for virtually zilch (i.e. LOWER than the cost to produce). Yup, the fortunes of the gold rush is in selling picks & axes ... and the masses are providing offerings at below cost (i.e. not sustainable) to certain markets.

Oh well ... maybe by getting so much "free" artwork, the hospital won't charge $32 for an aspirin anymore ... unless of course that's what the market will bear.




Edited on May 15, 2012 at 11:54 AM · View previous versions



May 15, 2012 at 11:29 AM
KaaX
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p.3 #6 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Oh, dear, there are so many Marxists here :-)

Karl Marx believed that the value of a good is determined by how much labor went into it. It's called the "labor theory of value". There are, um... errr... some problems with it :-)

On an a related note, let me say that abundance is good and scarcity is bad. Artificially created scarcity is very bad.



May 15, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Planetwide
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p.3 #7 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


The whole online stock house is ultimately doomed IMHO. User content will kill it. The stock houses, will react by reducing the payout to the photographer in an attempt to maintain margins in the face of declining revenue. User content either by competition input or flickr will supersede traditional stock for a majority of applications. Paid model shoots and food being the exceptions, again due to high input costs.

Where will this leave us you ask? With a much smaller, highly competitive industry that is probably not sustainable for the players in the long term. I know tons of excellent photographers that have left the industry, the loss of talent is unmeasurable, and pretty obvious in many publications. But, nobody cares and the term "good enough" rules. This commoditization has similarly affected lots of other business models as well. I understand millsart, and commend you for being honest. It is really about making a reasonable living...



May 15, 2012 at 11:47 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.3 #8 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Not if you're selling a luxury good, ie art.

We're in an over supply period in photography right now as it's never been so easy to do.

It's a strange market that will self adjust and its also probably why so many photographers are transitioning to Video. It's a lot harder to get great video results so the barrier to entry is much higher.



May 15, 2012 at 11:47 AM
RustyBug
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p.3 #9 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


"self adjust" ... I don't see it happening. I see the need to get outside the realm of the masses, but I don't see the non-business oriented masses (those selling below cost/free) reducing the supply levels. Far too many people

As such, it can't "self adjust" ... in those markets that the masses can play in.

To borrow from an old timer:

"You have to be able to do what others can't (or don't think they can) ... then they'll want it."

On the flip side:

"You have to be able to do what others won't." Far too many photographers "won't" put forth the business effort (90/10) ... rather expecting to do 90% photography (which places you smack in the middle of the masses) and too little business effort.

Edited on May 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM · View previous versions



May 15, 2012 at 11:58 AM
millsart
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p.3 #10 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


FlyPenFly wrote:
Not if you're selling a luxury good, ie art.

We're in an over supply period in photography right now as it's never been so easy to do.

It's a strange market that will self adjust and its also probably why so many photographers are transitioning to Video. It's a lot harder to get great video results so the barrier to entry is much higher.



Its funny, I was actually talking to a local video producer the other day who was commenting how he's starting to feel the effects of new entrants to the market, clients willing to pay less, and the overall increase in technology negating some competitive advantages he used to have with the higher end equipment he bought.

It was like, "Welcome to what we photographers have been dealing with for at least the past 5+ years"

Video will not be immune



May 15, 2012 at 12:08 PM
KaaX
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p.3 #11 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Perhaps it would be useful to look at the history of hobbyist computer programmers.

In the late 80s and early 90s there was a thriving cottage industry of small-time programmers putting out a variety of small software programs, mostly utilities. Very few made it big, but a lot were making enough for "reasonable living".

Fast-forward to now and... this cottage industry is gone. Completely. It was killed by many things including Microsoft getting better, but one major factor was free software. Completely free, as in speech and as in beer. Whatever remnants of that industry survived either went into deep deep niches or just went into the workforce as plain employees or, often, consultants/freelancers.

I think it's a good thing that this happened. Again, abundance (in this case, of free software) is good and scarcity is bad.



May 15, 2012 at 12:16 PM
Planetwide
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p.3 #12 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Free Beer?


May 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #13 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Andrew Gough wrote:
Free Beer?


+1

Even "Free Speech" has had to be paid for ... and it has been VERY EXPENSIVE.

There is no such thing as a "free lunch" ... and just like with the stock market there is an offset of winners & losers. The quantity of losses creates the quanity of gains (less picks & axes). The quantity of the masses selling below costs is who is paying for the images ... but they are still being paid for ... just not by those who are getting the gains for "free".

BTW ... please send me a lifetime supply of that Free Beer.

Edited on May 15, 2012 at 12:23 PM · View previous versions



May 15, 2012 at 12:20 PM
Planetwide
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p.3 #14 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


RustyBug, your 90/10 analogy is true to a certain point. But the advent of digital photography fundamentally changed the industry in dramatic ways. If you are a niche player, then your advice is definitely true. But as more people explore additional niches, you will experience additional competition. If you are succeeding, then well done and I hope that it continues, and it may. But it is really about the barriers to entry.

Video will go the same way as photography.



May 15, 2012 at 12:22 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #15 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Barriers to entry are part of the 90 that have to be contended with.

My point isn't that it is actually 90/10 ... just that far too many photographers don't consider the significance of the full ramifications of the business side ... leaning far too heavily on the photography side. The masses give virtually 0 credence to the tenets of sustainable business and as such provide offerings into the market at a loss.

Mixing with the masses that are supplying the market at a loss is a tough gig.

I remember being in Mexico many years ago and haggling with an old lady on a street corner. I got her price so low it was pathetic ... until I stepped off the curb. It then donned on me that "She still made a profit."

In the case of the Flickr, contest, micro, etc. ... people are consistently providing products at a loss / below cost. That is something the old lady (dirt poor as she was) would never do ... she couldn't afford to. The masses apparently can afford to sell/give their work away at a loss, and continue to do so without consideration for the sustainability. For some, they don't care, its fun. For others, they realize too late and bow out with the next one to come along and perpetuate selling below cost.

For some reason, the masses have adopted a "sell below cost" ideology and many buyers have latched on to it like a pit bull. For some perfunctory applications ... I can't say that I blame them (buyers). Perpetual products at below cost ... tough gig to compete with.




Edited on May 15, 2012 at 12:41 PM · View previous versions



May 15, 2012 at 12:24 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.3 #16 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Sorry the "cottage" software industry never really went away, it's back stronger than ever and is the fastest growing part of the software industry.


May 15, 2012 at 12:30 PM
KaaX
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p.3 #17 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


Andrew Gough wrote:
Free Beer?


"Free" has (at least) two distinct meanings in English. There is "free" as in having the liberty to do something, that's "free as in speech". And there is "free" as in no payment needed, that's "free as in beer".

Software can be "free as in speech" (libre), "free as in beer" (gratis), both, or neither.



May 15, 2012 at 12:35 PM
KaaX
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p.3 #18 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


RustyBug wrote:
There is no such thing as a "free lunch" ...


There are certainly a lot of non-zero-sum games -- situations where the total amount of benefits can increase. It doesn't mean that every single person will find it beneficial, but *overall* the benefits gained are greater than the benefits lost.

The technological progress is a most obvious example.

BTW, the stock market is NOT a zero-sum game either.



May 15, 2012 at 12:39 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #19 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


millsart wrote:
Its funny, I was actually talking to a local video producer the other day who was commenting how he's starting to feel the effects of new entrants to the market, clients willing to pay less, and the overall increase in technology negating some competitive advantages he used to have with the higher end equipment he bought.

It was like, "Welcome to what we photographers have been dealing with for at least the past 5+ years"

Video will not be immune


It's all the photographers flooding into the video market, and the videographers moving up into low-end filmmaking. I wonder how much longer the major Hollywood houses will last with many more smaller productions creating quality content for much less money without the need for huge returns on investment from a global audience.

Maybe artificial scarcity is a bad thing, but isn't controlled scarcity part of the model that maintains high paying professions such as lawyers, doctors, bankers, etc.? I.e. high cost of entry for education and then accreditation in an association. Certainly it's not in their interests to swell the member ranks excessively. Naturally it is assisted by the fact that that work is not easy to do (or so one would be led to believe).



May 15, 2012 at 12:43 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #20 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E


KaaX wrote:
BTW, the stock market is NOT a zero-sum game either.


Ummm ... incorporate all factors ... yup, it really is, but that's way OT.



May 15, 2012 at 12:46 PM
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