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Archive 2012 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildin...

HopeIsEternal
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p.1 #1 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

With all this talk about the need in the forums for 36mpx AA-less cameras like the Nikon D800E, I been wondering what "professional" photographers who actually sell artwork use and what determines the ability to get a photo sold for money.

I've seen tons of great, technically excellent pictures from amateurs on photo forums like this one but yet each time I go into a commercial building and find photographs hanging on the wall, the photographs are not really sharp or as technically competent as the stuff I find here and on Flickr. In fact many times the photographs would be laughed out of many of the photo forums including this one for exposure problems, lack of sharpness, noise/grain, perspective distortion etc..

Why is this?

Does anyone know the process used by building managers, architects, interior designers etc.. to select photographic artwork to hang in buildings? What kind of prices do these photographs go for and are the photographs and the prices justified more by the cachet of the artist's name than by the content?

Finally what does this say about amateurs and our unsatisfiable lust for more resolution, more details, more contrast, larger dynamic range etc.. if the pictures that people consider worth paying money for seem to have been shot with in JPG mode on 5mpx cameras?

Thanks.

PS. Lets say I wanted to shoot a few photos that would look good as a gallery print and potentially be likely to be purchased for an office or private home, what should I be shooting?

PPS. Actually I have sold one picture. It was a subtle HDR picture of an old tractor lying in the fields at dusk. The final picture had further exposure manipulation and removal of the sensor dust above.

Sun sets on an old tractor in Northbend,WA by HopeSpringsEternal2008, on Flickr

But still, short of stock photography what is the best subject and way to get pictures sold?

May 13, 2012 at 12:22 PM

redisburning
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p.1 #2 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

marketing.

sell yourself first, your photos second.

most people can't tell the difference between a good photograph and a bad one; like you I've seen a lot of professionals who don't really live up to the word. Many are talented, but I think many more are trained.

Buck the trend if you like, but The Beatles recorded a lot of existing popular music (i.e. r&b) and then made a lot of mainstream music before recording stuff like Yellow Submarine or Magical Mystery Tour. Until you can establish yourself, you sell people what they want, later people buy what you make.

also, I think it is much better to be a (doctor/lawyer/salaryman) who makes pictures than a photographer who makes pictures where financial stability is concerned.

May 13, 2012 at 01:14 PM

millsart
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p.1 #3 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

HopeIsEternal wrote:
I've seen tons of great, technically excellent pictures from amateurs on photo forums like this one but yet each time I go into a commercial building and find photographs hanging on the wall, the photographs are not really sharp or as technically competent as the stuff I find here and on Flickr. In fact many times the photographs would be laughed out of many of the photo forums including this one for exposure problems, lack of sharpness, noise/grain, perspective distortion etc..

Why is this?

Because when amateurs aren't at their day job which not only pays the bills but also gives them the disposable income/time to buy all the finest lenses and obsess over things like sharpness and rendering style etc.

When you shoot for a living your hardly going to buy several 50mm lenses because clients don't care about that stuff in the least. You buy the gear you need to get the job done and thats it, because otherwise your not making a profit.

I'll see so many lawyers/doctors/dentist types on the sidelines of football games with 2 Nikon D3s or D4's, a 400 2.8 VR etc and they aren't even getting paid to shoot. In same cases they are actually giving away their work just to get that credential to be on the sidelines.

Thing is, when your pulling in 100K a year, you can go drop $30,000 on gear. When your making $8 per web image used on Sports Illustrated and trying to pull at least $30k a year to keep the roof over your head, you can't, nor does it make any sense to.

My clients pay me the same rate if I shoot with a current D3s or a D4. They are going to notice do difference in the files and there is no way I can start doubling my rates because I just bought a new $6000 camera body.

So what do I do ? Take all my business profits and keep upgrading my gear, so I can keep up with some well to do hobbyist and be the big dog on the camera forums ? Or do I shoot with the gear I've got, which is all paid for, make my clients happy and have all the income I generate be pure profit ??

May 13, 2012 at 01:38 PM

carstenw
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p.1 #4 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

I have seen as much great work from amateurs as I have from professionals. The most valuable trait in an every-day professional (not a superstar) is the ability to pull off competent shots in any situation, not the ability to make one of the world's best photographs. I think that often pros just don't have that much time to pursue their own interests as they would like.

I think that if your goal with your photography is to make money, to the point that you will go where the money is, you have already lost. The most money made from photography these days is either pros at the highest level of their profession, like the best fashion photographers, or conceptual photographers, who have single-mindedly pursued their idea for years and years, in spite of failure.

Look at someone like Andreas Gursky, one of whose photos recently made a record for the most money paid. What all these pros have in common is that their vision was the most important thing to them, and the money came later when their vision was well developed. Of course there is also an element of... I don't want to call it luck, but maybe randomness. Not every great hard-working photographer with a unique vision hits the motherlode. You have to be in tune with the times.

May 13, 2012 at 02:00 PM

telyt
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p.1 #5 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

Not that I'm making much money from photography but gallery owners and their clients are delighted with the quality of the prints from my 7-yr-old 10MP DSLR.

If you want to make money in photography, don't make photos. Make tools and supplies for photographers.

May 13, 2012 at 02:21 PM

millsart
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p.1 #6 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

Thats exactly it, clients aren't photographers, so expecting them to care about things (some) photographers care about is silly.

Do you think before a client buys an image, or hires a photographer, they either are going to spend 5 hours on the computer trying to read various user reviews of a given lens, post threads asking how it compares to other lens and then expect the photographer to shoot a bunch of brick walls and newspapers taped to the wall to ensure the photographer is using a "good copy" ?? Of course not.

Its as silly as expecting the latest female pop star or boy band to be the worlds best singers. Just because they may have a million followers on twitter and sell a ton of records doesn't mean they are actually that talented. Rather they are well marketed and a bunch of teenage music buyers dont know/don't care about if their vocal is really that impressive. Many simply like them for their fashion style or tabloid behavior.

It would be a nice world if the artist making money, be they painters or singers or photographers were all really the most talented.

It would also be nice if people with ZERO talent, like the Kardashian sisters didn't make millions of dollars a year.

It would be nice of teachers, soliders and other professions that made a huge impact on society could make good money, and shady lawyers and CEO's were pocketing millions of dollars abusing the legal system and driving companies into the ground before escaping with golden parachutes.

Thats not how the world works though, nor will it probably ever be, so just because you see a photo some company purchasing hanging in the lobby, and you think you or others could do better, its a rather losing battle to really question it. Not going to change anything.

telyt wrote:
Not that I'm making much money from photography but gallery owners and their clients are delighted with the quality of the prints from my 7-yr-old 10MP DSLR.

If you want to make money in photography, don't make photos. Make tools and supplies for photographers.

May 13, 2012 at 02:50 PM

Almass
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p.1 #7 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

We usually buy stock photography if no shoot is required.

What camera or lens is totally irrelevant and when a particular subject is needed we close one eye to the quality of the print provided it is high res and can be PP'd in house to acceptable level.

Buying from individual photographers unfortunately is not practiced.
Commissioning photographers is the usual norm but not for subject of general nature.

May 13, 2012 at 03:56 PM

millsart
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p.1 #8 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

At my previous news magazine I was an editor for we many times used stock photography to illustrate many articles. Its simply so much cheaper/easier to have one of our page designers look through an online collection, find an image that meets the space needs for the page and click to download it vs requesting a photo, be finding a staffer to set up the shoot, finding a model, shooting, reshooting when someone isn't happy with it etc.

It really comes down to have a limited budget and I could either pay someone to cover a live event on the road, or I could pay someone to spend half the day shooting a generic scene of a man/woman arguing over something, of which hundreds if not thousands of images already exist at the mere click of the mouse.

On on hand I hate what the micro stock market has done to the industry, but at the other, my job is also to help manage a bottom line and I simply couldn't afford either in time or budget to shoot everything in house

May 13, 2012 at 04:18 PM

Bifurcator
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p.1 #9 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

HopeIsEternal wrote:
With all this talk about the need in the forums for 36mpx AA-less cameras like the Nikon D800E, I been wondering what "professional" photographers who actually sell artwork use and what determines the ability to get a photo sold for money.

I've seen tons of great, technically excellent pictures from amateurs on photo forums like this one but yet each time I go into a commercial building and find photographs hanging on the wall, the photographs are not really sharp or as technically competent as the stuff I find here and on Flickr. In fact many times the photographs would be...Show more →

Most likely because they're using those attributes as part of an overall effect. Remember, in this forum we're interested in tech-specs with only enough regard for "art" to make the examples non-boring. Shooting for customers or for "Art" you should be interested in the Art with only a casual (working) regard for the tech.

Does anyone know the process used by building managers, architects, interior designers etc.. to select photographic artwork to hang in buildings? What kind of prices do these photographs go for and are the photographs and the prices justified more by the cachet of the artist's name than by the content?

Name, availability, recommendation, subject, price, need, purpose, all the usuals...

Finally what does this say about amateurs and our unsatisfiable lust for more resolution, more details, more contrast, larger dynamic range etc.. if the pictures that people consider worth paying money for seem to have been shot with in JPG mode on 5mpx cameras?

It says that like all photographers we're looking for the best tools for the job - so we don't have to worry about the tech-specs later while actually creating the Art.

May 13, 2012 at 06:20 PM

KaaX
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p.1 #10 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

HopeIsEternal wrote:
I been wondering what "professional" photographers who actually sell artwork use and what determines the ability to get a photo sold for money.

Professional photographers who actually sell artwork use everything under the sun from digital point-and-shoots to 8x10 (and bigger) large-format cameras.

What determines the ability to sell a photo for money is called marketing. It very rarely has anything to do with the technical specifications of the camera used.

May 13, 2012 at 08:58 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #11 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

telyt wrote:
If you want to make money in photography, don't make photos. Make tools and supplies for photographers.

Or become a crowd sourcing site that redistributes other people's work and pays them maybe a 30% royalty... Or even better, make them pay you to represent their work. It's all about volume and gross sales for such organizations. If you think becoming a contributor in such a model is a great idea, you're just putting money in their pockets while sharing the crumbs with the hundreds of thousands of other contributors. $1m sales = $700K for the agency, $300K to be split among xxxx... it quickly becomes peanuts.

Photography has steadily become a mass commodity. The more the technology improves and allows basic competency to be achieved by the masses, the less value there will be in most images. That's not to say there aren't valuable images, as Carsten has pointed out, but it's not commonplace.

May 13, 2012 at 09:29 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #12 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

90% Business ... 10% Photography
(insert numbers of your own choosing, i.e. 80/20, 70/30, etc.)

For those of us who are hyper-focused on the Photography, we are often lacking in the necessary/critical elements of Business.
Photography for many amateurs is about passion (and work efforts toward) of the craft ... Business is about passion (and work efforts toward) for the money

There will always be amateurs capable of producing better photographic works than professionals, and vice versa. But for those who want photography as a business ... then the focus tends to be more at business. Many amateurs "bow out" once they run into the difficulties of business and see just how much WORK (i.e. not fun stuff) it is.

Sad, but true ... today, as it was 30 years ago ... and as it will be 30 years from now.

May 14, 2012 at 10:19 AM

FlyPenFly
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p.1 #13 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

I don't see why anyone would get into photography as a business now unless they had a passion for it. You can make a lot more money with a lot less stress and effort in other fields. I can only see it making sense if you're very driven in photography.

May 14, 2012 at 10:38 AM

RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

+1 @ the "driven in photography" ... but that alone won't cut it in the perpetual competitive ranks of business, you've got to put in a likewise "driven in business" that many have already referred to via "marketing" etc.

It often times isn't the lack of photgraphic talent, but rather the lack of business acumen talent that makes for the distinction/separation ... which historically is greatly underestimated by the multitudes of amateurs with great talent.

The OP question is "age old" (imo) that presents the case of a sword that is "ultra-sharp" on one edge and dull on the other vs. a sword that is "sharp-enough" on both sides. Go into battle ... which sword do you want to be holding? Both sides need to be sharpened to a level of "effectiveness" (at a minimum) ... and most amateurs spend their time sharpening the photography side (which yields accolades), while giving too little credence to the business side (which yields $$$).

Whether it's 90/10 or even 50/50 ... it isn't 10/90.

Edited on May 14, 2012 at 12:34 PM · View previous versions

May 14, 2012 at 11:24 AM

millsart
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p.1 #15 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

FlyPenFly wrote:
I don't see why anyone would get into photography as a business now unless they had a passion for it. You can make a lot more money with a lot less stress and effort in other fields. I can only see it making sense if you're very driven in photography.

Its all relative to the lifestyle someone wants to lead, if they have a family, mortgage etc.

When I was a single guy out of college, living alone, it was a fantastic job. I'd get to sleep in all day, go photograph a couple of concerts or other entertainment events 2-3 nights a week and then on the weekends shoot a couple of sporting events like an NFL football game.

Everyone else slaves away 40hrs a week at a day job and then spends their hard earned money on tickets to concerts and sporting events. I'm seeing those same events, from the sidelines and I'm getting paid for it AND it's something I enjoy doing.

Pretty sweet deal at the time. Problem is though that while its nice to make, say $500 for just a couple of hours work, and usually at something pretty cool, like an Aerosmith concert, or a Patriots game, there really is no upward growth or security.

Just a few years ago I used to make great money shooting concerts but these days all the publications (in addition to having declining circulation) usually just find people who will give away their work for a photo pass.

Now the photo pits are full of hipster looking college kids with skinny jeans, bushy beards and thick black glasses and their DSLR's they bought at Best Buy last month after taking a photo course and not carrying about making a living because their parents pay their apt cost and photography is just a fun hobby to them, concerts are cool, and having your name with a photo, even if your not paid, is also cool.

In the real world though "cool" doesn't buy groceries or keep the heat on.

I can't show the cashier some page clips with my name in the credits and get a loaf of bread.

I can't tell the utilities how awesome it was seeing my favorite band from 5 feet away and have them translate that experience into 3 months of the power bill.

I can't translate combining two of my favorite things, photography and live music into the job security of knowing that I'm going to be able to cover my first home loan.

Its a cool lifestyle for a while, and crazy to think how people working fast food or retail need to put in 40 hours to make what someone pays me to cover a sporting event (a sporting event that people are paying hundreds of dollars just to attend I might add and with far worse seats than I have).

Question becomes though, can you see yourself doing it in 5-10 years ? Can you see yourself able to support a family, own your own home etc doing it ?

After 8 years in the field, I'm returning to school for a graduate degree in health care. I hope to be able to make ends meet for the next few years doing photography but I know moving forward I want to be part of a growing field, not one that keeps declining.

I want to have paid vacations (and not the frustration of getting a call for a big paying job while I'm out of town and have to decline it) I want paid sick days, not having to show up to a football game with the flu or else I don't get paid. I want to be able to buy a home and have a reasonable expectation that my income is going to increase and not decline. I want a steady check each week and not having to worry about those slow periods and having to budget my money for the busy season.

Photography is a great hobby, and can make for a pretty awesome job at times, because you truly are getting paid to do what you love, but its not a career.

Few if any careers are built around trying to make a living doing something the rest of the world does as a hobby.

A plumber doesn't have to deal with a bunch of weekend warriors wanting to go out with their new pipe wrench and install a toilet for free, just because its so fun.

A restaurant doesn't have to deal with a home chef showing up places and cooking free meals just because its fun to cook.

Tough industry thats only going to get tougher

May 14, 2012 at 11:58 AM

KaaX
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p.1 #16 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

FlyPenFly wrote:
I don't see why anyone would get into photography as a business now unless they had a passion for it.

How about a usual reason -- having specific marketable skills?

Note that, of course, "I like taking pictures" is neither a skill, nor is marketable :-D

May 14, 2012 at 12:03 PM

KaaX
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p.1 #17 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

millsart wrote:
When I was a single guy out of college ...

Now the photo pits are full of hipster looking college kids...

.

millsart wrote:
I want to have paid vacations (and not the frustration of getting a call for a big paying job while I'm out of town and have to decline it) I want paid sick days, not having to show up to a football game with the flu or else I don't get paid. I want to be able to buy a home and have a reasonable expectation that my income is going to increase and not decline. I want a steady check each week and not having to worry about those slow periods and having to budget my money for the...Show more →

So really, you want to have a salary and not, basically, run a small business. Nothing unusual about this, but that's hardly specific to photography.

millsart wrote:
Photography is a great hobby, and can make for a pretty awesome job at times, because you truly are getting paid to do what you love, but its not a career.

Um. Looking around, it certainly seems possible to have a successful career in photography. It's neither easy nor automatic and a lot depends on what kind of photography you do, but I wouldn't just dismiss the possibility out of hand. Having a career works the same way as in all the other fields: you have to be better than some/most of the others at your level, you have to be *oriented* towards a career -- have long-term plans, do networking, promoting yourself, the usual.

Most occupations can be either jobs (do the same thing for years and years just to get the paycheck) or careers (move up to different/more complex/better paid things). It's usually up to the individual whether he wants to spend the effort and take the risks involved.

May 14, 2012 at 12:20 PM

FlyPenFly
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p.1 #18 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

Maybe Roger has it figured out:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/05/roger-gets-a-new-job

May 14, 2012 at 12:41 PM

KaaX
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p.1 #19 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

If we are talking about a business *around* photography, I have one word and one number for you :-)

The number is one billion US dollars.

The word begins with "Insta" and ends with "gram".

May 14, 2012 at 12:55 PM

millsart
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p.1 #20 · "Professional" Photographers , sold artwork hanging in buildings and Nikon D800E

KaaX wrote:
So really, you want to have a salary and not, basically, run a small business. Nothing unusual about this, but that's hardly specific to photography.

Ironically my goal is to open my own private practice clinic so I'm actually not against running a small business. Running a small business is in fact a fantastic thing. The difference is the nature of the business. If your in an industry that is expanding or declining.

Now of course one can always argue that in any industry, even photography, there are those who can and will continue to earn a great living, cream rises to the top, yadda yadda. However, look at acting. There are those who earn million of dollars per film, which is great for them, and there are also millions that have that dream. On one hand you can't say for certain that no, your not going to earn a living doing that, because there are plenty of actors who do, but at the same time, how realistic are the odds of that happening ? Are you prepared to wait tables and live in a run down LA apt and go to auditions for the next 10 years and take that chance ?

I'm all for following dreams, yet at the same time think its important to be realistic. If your a 5 foot 8 white guy in your mid 30's and your dream is to play in the NBA, probably not going to happen. Nothing wrong with having that dream, but you probably should take that cushy sales position your brother in law in hooking you up with, pull down a nice salary, have a wife and kids in the suburbs and live a pretty good life. Its not the exact dream but for many its a pretty good overall substitute.

There is no shortage of art schools still selling kids on photography degrees, only to have them come out of school $100k in debt and not finding work, even with some good skills. Ours simply isn't an industry that needs a huge labor pool. One might make it, and great for them, but others are going to be burdened with huge debt and a degree with a very limited scope of employment options.

In the end people just have to make that choice and weight the risk vs rewards, be it leaving friends and family and moving to LA to be "discovered" or instead of getting that computer science degree, instead trying to make a go of it as a photographer and seeing what the market holds for you. Maybe you'll make it big, maybe you'll string for $75 for a local paper once a week while shooting with a D4 and other gear that maxed out your credit card. Maybe taking the chance either way is better than a safe, yet boring life programing code all day even for great money.

I had a hospitality management degree and left a decent job with plenty of upward growth as a manager in the Hilton hotel chain to put all my efforts into my photography business. I was very lucky to land some great contracts with some large university athletic depts and have steady assignments from a variety of publications. I gambled and came out ahead.

Worked for me for a while but wasn't the life I wanted to lead forever. For some it may be, a family, minivan etc isn't for everyone. Some may want to live the life a bachelor til their final days. Others may want to quit the corporate job and after some savings are built up, give photography a try.

There simply is no one path in life anyone has to follow. Sometimes you take the wrong turn and have to backtrack, other times the path less traveled turns out to be the best choice you've ever made, and sometimes, the easy and direct well labeled route gets you where you really want to go.

May 14, 2012 at 01:03 PM

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