While A B&W camera with greatly increased dynamic range and better resolution and noise control would be just what I want, I have no doubt that anyone who covets this will be gouged by the typical Leica boutique prices.
They seem to have no intention to allow more people to access their system in order to sell more lenses, it's just not their business model.
I suppose this would require M10 users to carry a full array of coloured filters, as was common in the film days? Or perhaps some nifty built-in filter system?
Yeah, although a native b&w sounds exciting and has some advantages, I'm not sure that it's all worth removing the flexibility of adjusting color channels with color to b&w conversions.
I can't really say that I see the benefits. Digital camera sensors (foveon being the exception) are already monochrome. They just have a color filter array in front of the sensor. What would be gained by removing the CFA? Certainly not dynamic range. Perhaps there would be an increase in sharpness as the color filters probably introduce some form of degradation. But is going B/W worth for a bit of better resolution?
Alternatively I can imagine the CFA being replaced by an ND-filter array, but that would mean a massive increase in DR but also a massive drop in resolution. A 24 megapixel sensor would produce a 6 megapixel image.. I don't see that as a reasonable solution either.
Dynamic range and sharpness at the expense of flexibility and ease of post-processing.
I don't know how I'd go - most of my final images are in B&W, but it's awfully nice to be able to apply filters after the fact and have a color file if I want to go that way. The B&W sensor would have to be leagues better than their standard sensor.
denoir wrote:
I can't really say that I see the benefits.
Luka, you are clearly nice and try to understand it.
I'm gonna call it a moronic idea on the same level of
their Hermes editions. It was probably quite simple
to do and the goal is to explore the deepest level
of Leicoholism and get money from the victims.
I hope they didn't invest any R&D money into it
because I want the best M10 possible
and there won't be any excuses if it sucks.
No Bayer interpolation means true pixel count. We all know that true resolution is much lower than the actual pixel count, if I remember correctly it's about half (I could be wrong on this one). Similarly Foveon claims 3 times their pixel count, but most testers agree that it is truly worth the double, which is already something noteworthy. Moreover, there is no light loss by going through the CFA. Remember Canon used lighter CFA on the 5D2 to gain high iso advantage. So no CFA means incredibly clean files. No noise increases DR. Also, it seems it would be possible to get true B/W film tonality, the only reason why some B/W aficionados are sticking with film.
Also, imagine using patterned ND arrays, giving B&W with a dynamic range of 16 EV, at the same resolution of today's CFA sensors. Hell, maybe even 20 EV if they can eliminate blooming from the saturated cells. That would be quite something!
And it would differentiate Leica further. If they merely add LiveView and high ISO in an M10 they are just following the competition.
edwardkaraa wrote:
No Bayer interpolation means true pixel count. We all know that true resolution is much lower than the actual pixel count, if I remember correctly it's about half (I could be wrong on this one). Similarly Foven claimed 3 times their pixel count, but most testers agree that it is truly worth the double, which is already something noteworthy. Moreover, there is no light loss by going through the CFA. Remember Canon used lighter CFA on the 5D2 to gain high iso advantage. So no CFA means incredibly clean files. No noise increases DR. Also, it seems it would be possible to get true B/W film tonality, the only reason why some B/W aficionados are sticking with film. ...Show more →
The Luminous Landscape review of the Phase One Achromatic+ (which is a B&W P45) discusses a lot of these points. There are three opinions as to the resolution in that review, and they range from not that noticeable to somewhere between the P45 and P65.
Overall, I'm just not sure the trade off is worth lugging around a bunch of filters and not having a color option. Rather than trying to get more resolution, DR and low light performance out of the Kodak sensor by removing the CFA, I'd probably rather just have the D800's sensor in an M10, which would also provide more resolution, DR and low light performance.
Granted, there's a masochistic side to me that likes the idea of not having the option to shoot color.
douglasf13 wrote:
The Luminous Landscape review of the Phase One Achromatic+ (which is a B&W P45) discusses a lot of these points. There are three opinions as to the resolution in that review, and they range from not that noticeable to somewhere between the P45 and P65.
Overall, I'm just not sure the trade off is worth lugging around a bunch of filters and not having a color option. Rather than trying to get more resolution, DR and low light performance out of the Kodak sensor by removing the CFA, I'd probably rather just have the D800's sensor in an M10, which would also provide more resolution, DR and low light performance.
Granted, there's a masochistic side to me that likes the idea of not having the option to shoot color. ...Show more →
Well, I personally do not care much for b/w photography, but Leica M has always been associated with b/w documentary style photography, and I know many people out there who use the M9 strictly for b/w. Imho, the tonality of b/w film is not possible to emulate with color sensors. Not sure if a b/w sensor would have the same tonality, but it seems to be the case. I see a lot of enthusiasm from M b/w shooters so I have the feeling that it isn't such a bad idea after all. One thing for sure, I am too poor to buy a b/w only camera, so will wait for the M10
There are certainly some technical advantages to a true B&W camera, though from everything I've read regarding previous models, the advantages aren't always huge.
More so to me, is the issue of sheer cost. Would one want to spend that type of money for a B/W only camera. You have to really LOVE shooting b&w or have the means as to where cost is no object and simply pick one up as a second body to carry along with an existing m9.
I'm sure it could produce some amazing files, but man.... first time I'm out with it and there just happens to be this amazing sunset right before my eyes and I'm stuck shooting it in b&w.... that would be frustrating
I've always been pretty happy being able to convert color files into B&W myself. In fact, trying shots out in B&W is sort of a standard part of my workflow. I find shots usually either look better one way or the other so I try both. Quick and easy to do in post.
I've never really got why people would want to limit themselves to b&w only shots with all the cameras and their monochrome jpeg options. Just seems like why limit yourself. You can always turn a shot into a BW but you can't go back and turn that file into color. Just like shooting with some of those in camera effects such as "toy camera" "grainy film" etc. You can always give any shot that look in post (and with far more control) but once you do it in camera your stuck with that look on your image.
At any rate though, it should make for some interesting reading and reviews if/when such a model is released
It seems we're all thinking too much like mega-corps. I find it encouraging that Leica would be willing to address such a niche. The concept is interesting but unrealistic for *my* shooting needs (because the clients I have all expect color) and my budget (though maybe in a few years for a used one), but there are some photographers who will benefit from such a camera. I suspect the technical benefits of a monochrome vs. color enabled sensor will not be extremely important to them, rather, the fact that it's only monochrome will be the reason.
I'm most curious to see whether the camera has an LCD for image review. If the camera does have revolutionary, amazing dynamic range, then exposure accuracy might be less critical and it will be less important to check exposure, histogram, etc... But I admit, it would be extremely difficult for me to give up in-camera image review, especially for client work simply for the peace of mind knowing I didn't screw up some setting half way through a shoot (though admittedly I probably wouldn't be using a monochrome-only camera for my client work).
Hi, Jeff. I guess I don't see it as any different than one limiting oneself to a prime or two. As Orson Welles said, "The enemy of art is the absence of limitation."
Another technical thing we should consider is that if one chooses to use a screw-in color filter for their b&w imagery with this alleged camera, the filter will cause light loss, so there may not be a net gain.
Makten wrote:
~2 stops more light per pixel. That's a lot.
Yes, this is what I want in a low-light street shooting camera.
I was hoping Sony would do this with the NEX 7B, as I don't want to pay $7K for a B&W only camera.
Would not have to worry about corner color fixing when using wide angle RF lenses, right?
douglasf13 wrote:
Hi, Jeff. I guess I don't see it as any different than one limiting oneself to a prime or two. As Orson Welles said, "The enemy of art is the absence of limitation."
Another technical thing we should consider is that if one chooses to use a screw-in color filter for their b&w imagery with this alleged camera, the filter will cause light loss, so there may not be a net gain.
Interesting way to look at it, but for me, going out with one lens usually doesn't feel like that big of limitation. After all, I can always try to move closer, or do things like take a pano if I can't get wide enough.
By contrast, shooting only b&w seems like it would really limit so much of the world I see before my eyes. I do love b&w photography, and perhaps convert as much as 50% of my images, but like many people I would guess, I also really love and respond to color. The red's, oranges and purples of a Southwestern sunset. The beautiful blue hue's of the Caribbean Sea. The explosion of color of a field of wildflowers in the spring. The lush hues of green in an old growth forest.......
I could go to the Cayman Islands with a single lens, say a 35mm and capture a ton of great photos and really not feel limited at all. Granted being able to stitch files if I did want a sweeping shot of a beach or port is a nice digital option.
Being on that same island with a B&W only camera..... I don't know..... While there would be some cool shots, and some fun in trying to explore more about the darkness and light, I can't feel I'd really feel I was missing out when I got home with no color images and no way to turn them into color.
