I purchased Flash Canon 600ex-rt for 5D Mk II, but after that I asked for I found who say that it is not compatible with my camera. I would like to know your experiences. they arrive on Thursday.
I got my two last week. I have the 5DII. Because the group function doesn't work, you can't mix ETTL.
I'm relatively certain, as I recall, that it sync's up to 1/200 (camera's normal top sync speed) without the dreaded curtain effect. It not only does HSS on the camera up to 1/8000, but also seems to work fine in the radio mode, which was not advertised to be the case.
So all in all, it's a great upgrade which will work a bit better on newer bodies. I doubt it will make much difference to many folks, as you have to own a fair number of these to start worrying about more than 3 groups, and these are obviously very expensive. (BTW, Buydig sells these for $599 now with free shipping.)
The lack of backwards compatibility is unfortunate and pretty stupid on the part of Canon from a marketing stand point. But that stupidity IMHO started when the 580exII was introduced and flash control has changed to allow the camera menu to control the flash.
In terms of practical use when I'm using speedlights its:
1) For run and gun shooting in ETTL where I'm switching between one and two lights and with two lights key:fill frontal lighting or shots where I wheel the slave around behind to rim light the action. For that type of shooting I'm adjusting FEC and ratios on the fly. The most convenient feature for the way I shoot on the 580ex — the Master switch on the base, was eliminated on the 580ex. In terms of controlling the flash I find it more convenient to adjust the flash from the Master above the camera for FEC and ratio than using the camera menu.
2) Static situations like portraits where I switch to M mode, dial in the lights then shoot 300 or so frames at the same settings. I have a standard set-up for portaits: both lights at 1/2 power, fill at 8ft. / key at 5.5 ft. which produces a 3:1 ratio at f/8 at ISO 100 with my modifers. It is reliable, consistent, and repeatable as the noon day sun. So for this type of shooting the Canon flashes have no real advantage over the Vivitars I used previously, except for the fact I can switch between M and ETTL as needed.
The difference between the 580ex and 580exII/600EX-R is that the flash functions could be controlled entirely from the flash. Had Canon not moved them to the camera menu with the 580exII we probably would be able to control 5 groups and all the advanced features from the Master flash on any camera dating back to the D30 and Canon would sell a lot more of them.
But again in practical terms if you are using a lighting set-up with five separate groups of flashes that implies some rather complicated logistics for set-up and dialing in. When you get beyond simple highlight:shadow ratios and balancing the background lighting, which works quite nicely with A:B C in ETTL mode...
But if you want to use the third flash as a hair light with key or fill or more complicated lighting set-ups like this where the ETTL metering won't work (because group C isn't factored into the A:B ratio) it's both necessary and easier to shoot in Manual mode and set-up the lighting via incident metering... http://super.nova.org/MP/ThreeFlashesGPS.jpg
The problem with the Canon optical system was that the pre-flashes prevented accurate hand metering and there was no way to separately fire each group to set the ratio so setting up a complicated scenario was a matter of trial and error test exposures. Not a surprise since it wasn't designed to operate with incident metering. But given the logistics of hauling and setting up the gear for a complicated set-up like that and the cost of the Canon flash makes more sense for a working pro to use studio lights and inverters where wall outlets are not available so incident metering can be used for set-up. The difference in logistics? The studio gear weighs a bit more. The cost difference? Not much if any depending on the brand of studio gear.
Canon when loading up the 580exII with new features like the PC cord socket and Auto mode was pandering to the "Stobist" crowd wanting to trigger their flash with the old PW units. It hit the market at the same time as Radio Poppers and the PW Flex TTL radio solutions so few now use the PC socket and I've never read of anyone using the Auto mode. Now Canon finally incorporates radio control. Meanwhile what is the Strobist doing? Last I heard Hobby is using studio monolights and inverters.
The 600EX-R is an improvement in many regards (not the least that it will not fail and fire randomly at full power like the 580EXII) but it could be much more practical than it is and backwards compatible with my cameras which would perhaps motivate me to buy a couple of the price every drops to around $400. It probably would be $400 if not for all the extra engineering it takes to allow it to be driven from the camera menu.
What they should do is put an incident meter/trigger in that ST-E3-rt like the Cyber Commander by Paul Buff. You could then take the ST-E3 off the camera, get the reading, and Bob's your uncle. In fact, they should just consider buying out an outfit like Paul Buff and fully integrate studio flash into the Canon EX system, making it a soup to nuts offering. I think it would shut down much of the competition in studio strobes, not to mention delivering a body blow to Nikon in the flash arena. It would be a heck of a reason to go Canon. Definitely room for growth in that direction.
erichard wrote:
I got my two last week. I have the 5DII. The group mode doesn't work as mentioned above, and if you want to use manual flash, you have to use ratios, like A:B or A:B and C, rather than manually setting the individual power levels via radio. That's essentially the same as the optical link of the 580EXII in that regard (but is radio now). Because the group function doesn't work, you can't mix ETTL and manual groups, and you are limited to the 3 A, B, C groups of yesteryear basically. But still good enough for me.
You are not able to control the off camera 600EX-RT power in manual mode? From a 600EX-RT on the camera?
James, I rechecked, and I must have remembered incorrectly. You CAN actually set individual power levels manually for A, B, and C in manual mode. So you can set 1/128 to 1 for each one. Although I fooled around initially with manual when I first got it, I mainly shot ETTL for the prom photos since it was spontaneous shots at a gathering, and that is ratio shooting obviously. Sorry for the confusion (I'll change the original post). I think the instruction manual confused me a bit as I read it last week because they use the word "ratio" throughout the section on wireless manual flash. That's a lot better than I had resigned myself to.
Thanks for clarifying that. I used that exact setup this last weekend with my 5DMKII and was able to control the off camera 600EX-RT power setting from my camera's 600EX-RT. It worked beautifully. Just wanted to make sure you weren't having any problems with yours. I've been very happy with the new 600EX-RT flash! It was expensive, but it works so well. It's like the two 600's WANT to work together
The coolest feature I've found is that I can set a slave 600EX in Manual mode, adjust lights/exposure by chimping... and then connect a dumb trigger to the PC socket and shoot with a film camera.... the 600EX remembers the manual power setting. This wasn't possible with the Flex-TT5/AC3 setup, AFAIK. Only tested it on the bench so far, but it seems to work.
bobk wrote:
The coolest feature I've found is that I can set a slave 600EX in Manual mode, adjust lights/exposure by chimping... and then connect a dumb trigger to the PC socket and shoot with a film camera.... the 600EX remembers the manual power setting. This wasn't possible with the Flex-TT5/AC3 setup, AFAIK. Only tested it on the bench so far, but it seems to work.
Really? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're describing here, but I do this all of the time with PW ControlTL system. I believe RadioPoppers do it too. Again, it could be that I don't exactly understand what's different and special in this feature that you describe.
erichard wrote:
James, I rechecked, and I must have remembered incorrectly. You CAN actually set individual power levels manually for A, B, and C in manual mode. So you can set 1/128 to 1 for each one. Although I fooled around initially with manual when I first got it, I mainly shot ETTL for the prom photos since it was spontaneous shots at a gathering, and that is ratio shooting obviously. Sorry for the confusion (I'll change the original post). I think the instruction manual confused me a bit as I read it last week because they use the word "ratio" throughout the section on wireless manual flash. That's a lot better than I had resigned myself to....Show more →
The 580ex / 580exII display is confusing in M mode because the same RATIO ON /OFF working used for ETTL mode is used to toggle M mode on/off. Adjusting power on the different groups was also a rather confusing sequence of button pushes and dial turning on the flash compared to ETTL where the bar clearly indicated the ratio. So in that regard the UI of the 600EX-R is a big improvement.
The manual also doesn't make clear that the Master flash defaults to A group. So when using ETTL the slave flash needs to be set to B group and with A on the camera it acts as fill resulting in the ratios being the reverse of conventional H:S portrait ratios. Also worth noting is that the Canon ratio numbers, e.g. A:B = 1:1 are expression relative incident strength not reflected appearance as with the portrait convention.
The H:S ratio convention assumes even fill on both sides of the face as a foundation, so if you overlap an equal incident strength key light (1:1 incident) you get a 2:1 H:S ratio per the convention..
H:S
1:1 Centered fill equal on entire face
1:0 Same incident strength key light overlaps creating highlights
===
2:1 Highlights reflect 2x more light than shadows
So in ETTL mode with Master A on the camera and Slave B off camera you need to set ETTL for A:B = 1:1 to get a similar ratio.
For darker shadowed 3:1 ratio per the convention requires the key light to be 1-stop brighter.
H:S
1:1 Centered fill equal on entire face
2:0 key light 3x brighter than fill (incident) overlaps creating highlights
===
3:1 Highlights reflect 3x more light than shadows
Matching that with ETTL requires setting A:B = 1:2 Group B Slave Key 2x stronger than Group A Master / Fill.
How the metering calculates incident strength is by firing separate pre-flashes for each group and storing the values for each metering zone. Regardless of flash model the preflashes are the same % of that flashes max. output. Then by comparing relative brightness in Zone X between Group A and Group B and the ratio that has been dialed in it knows how to instruct the flashes. For example if you were using a 580ex Master and 430ex slave (which is about half the max. brightness) at the same distance and dialed in a 1:1 ratio the metering seeing that the the pre-flash from the 580ex is 2x as bright in the same zone as the pre-flash from 430ex will instruct the 580ex to fire at 50% power compared the 100% on the 430ex.
What makes ETTL ratios and ETTL metering in imprecise are the fact that metering zones on the viewfinder and large and imprecise and factors like spill fill off the ceiling will change the contrast of the scene. When shooting in ETTL mode (using Master on bracket and Slave on stand) I use this workflow:
1) Set ratio to A:B = 1:2 The goal of the exercise technically is to record detail everywhere from black suit to white dress in the flash lit foreground. What ratio is needed to do that is a function of the camera's DR. With testing I've found that A:B = 1:2 (equivalent to a 3:1 H:S ratio set manually) will usually record a full range to detail everywhere in the flash lit foreground.
As mentioned room conditions and whether flash is used direct, diffused, bounced, etc. change the spill fill variable, which will affect what the numerical ratio looks like, so A:B = 1:2 is just the starting baseline.
2) Adjust FEC until the highlights are below clipping in the playback: Again my goal is a full range of detail, so I always try to keep my highlights below clipping. There is more headroom i the RAW than the camera warning shows, but I find that if I expose per the JPG the camera uses the JPGs I create at the end of my editing workflow don't have blown highlights. I allow for "shrinkage" during PP.
3) It's not possible to objectively evaluate the midtones like facial shadows until the highlights are correctly exposed. So after dialing in the highlights at A:B = 2:1 I evaluate how the faces and darker shadows look then adjust the ratio as necessary for the look I want. At capture I'll err on the side of slight underexposure of the highlights to avoid loss of detail and err on the side of overfilling the shadows, which can easily be corrected in PP if too light. Also, the lighter the shadows are at capture the less noise will be seen because there's more signal.
My ETTL approach for both FEC and Ratio is a bit like aiming a Cannon: Take the best guess regarding hitting the target, fire the first shot, see where it actually lands (due to factors like spill fill that can't be predicted) then adjust aim from that point.
With M mode here's a simple approach if you use the Master on the camera or bracket as fill:
1) Set your Master A to 1/2 power then find the distance where as Fill it is creating the shadow detail you want to see on your photos.
2) Set your Slave B to 1/2 power as Key light and adjust it's distance until the highlights it creates are just below clipping.
That simple two step procedure creates optimal (full range of detail) exposure. Once you know those distances for shooting and key light placement the will always produce optimal exposure. That's how we shot weddings back in the days of single power manual flash and it was far more consistent than ETTL.
I shoot portraits that way with my 580ex in M mode. With my diffusers shooting from 8ft at 1/2 power on both flashes at ISO 100 when I put my slave at 5-1/2 feet I get a full range of detail.. http://super.nova.org/MP/TowelGary.jpg
By coincidence my arm-span is 5-1/2 feet so use it between tip of nose and center of diffuser to set the key light distance then take 3 measured steps backwards to 8ft. Because the two flashes are both 1/2 power and have identical diffusers the inverse-square law makes the Key light at 5-1/2 feet 2x brighter than Fill on camera at 8ft.
H:S
1:1 Group A - Centered Fill from 8ft.
2:1 Group B - Off axis Key from 5-1/2 is 2x brighter
===
3:1 reflected ratio between highlights and shadows on front of face, which happens to fit the range of my camera ideally as seen via the histogram.
Alternately similar predictable results can be achieved by changing power on the key flash:
1) Set your Master A to 1/2 power then find the distance where as Fill it is creating the shadow detail you want to see on your photos.
2) Move your Slave B to the distance needed for the desired character of the lighting on the face / scene then adjust it's power until the highlights it creates over the fill are just below clipping.
The thing to realize in M mode is that Master fill is controlling shadow tone and for any given power setting on the Master only one distance will exposed the shadows optimally. Move closer they will be over filled. Move further away they will lose detail.
In ETTL you need to think in opposite terms. First adjust FEC to keep detail in the highlights, then adjust the ratio to change the tone of the shadows - either based on detail in the darkest content such as a black suit, or the appearance of the face. YMMV but on my cameras (20D / 50D) when ratio is set above A:B = 1:2 I start to loose detail in the shadows on dark clothing.
A way to record a full range at capture, and adjust the appearance of the face, is to shoot at the ratio which puts detail in the shadows, as above, then tweek the midtones in PP. Below I used Levels on the JPG above, but normally I'd adjust in RAW with brightness and contrast.
Fill lighting at capture controls shadow detail independently, Key lighting overlaps and controls highlight detail independently and in PP you shift the midtones without changing either end of the tonal range. What changes when the midtones are shifted in PP is the overall perception of detail in the photo because.
It's a more holistic approach that takes advantage of the convenience of ETTL and the ability of digital to manipulate what the linear response of the camera captures in PP. The Levels trick works particularly well with B&W conversions as seen in this comparison:
This is a very interesting thread and I would like to chime in in an effort to learn how
to operate this system. I just purchased two of these 600's and put them to some use this weekend...but I am totally confused.
Let me backtrack to how I have been shooting events and portraits on location with
my prior setup. I use a 5d mark2 with an on camera 580ex2 and off camera I used
a Qflash on a stand in either manual or auto mode. For portraits, the qflash was
bounced or shot thru a white umbrella in manual mode...usually between 1/4 and
1/2 power at iso 400..depending on subject distance. I used the 580 in ttl mode with
a bounce card as fill...I was able to dial my fill in by adjusting FEC at the camera very
effectively. For candids...I set the the qflash on auto at a fairly low power...maybe
f5.6 at 800 iso and used the remote flash output as my base exposure , adjusting
the fec on the 580 to give me the desired effect. This work fairly well, but there were
inconsistently from time to time. BTW the remote flash was triggered by a photix unit
on my camera hotshoe which allowed my to place my 580 on top of the unit and still
maintain ttl on camera....pretty reliable unit.
Enter the 600's...I was quite excited when I first tested them the other day...in basic
ettl mode...I was able to consistently get a nice 2-1 ratio at home...they also worked
well for backlighting. The kicker was...I got terrific high speed sync performance with
the 5d mark2 up to about 1/2000 sec...no falloff...which is something I wanted for
flash work outdoors in bright conditions...the manual says this is not possible...but
believe me....it is.
Shot an event yesterday and brought both my old and new lighting setups. Here are
my observations: 1. ettl is still very inconsistent with these new lights...constantly
changing fec throughout the night...sometimes a + 2 compensation wasn't enough
to give me a proper exposure....there was a mirror in the room behind a shear curtain
so this may have been a factor...probably needed to use manual...but could figure
out how to do that with these two flashes. 2: tried to do ratio with the A and b flashes...couldn't figure it out. 3: recycle on these units seemed slower than my
old 580 ex's...I was useing the canon battery pack on my remote flash...still had to
wait at least 2 sec between exposures
Right now I need someone who can hold my hand a little to learn these things...the
manual sucks. This seems to be the right place for that...but I still don't understand
how to begin.
The ratio bit was a little confusing at first to me. You can actually assign which flash is A and which is B (or C), whereas before I believe the master was always A. In my case, had I not set it, they defaulted to my slave being A, which was rather confusing. Once you know which is which, ratios like A:B 4:1 make more sense (A getting 4 times the power that B gets). I changed it so the master is A and will keep it that way so I don't have to think about it anymore.
What I wish they'd done was to mimic Buff's Cyber Commander whereby you can set the various power levels in manual mode, at whatever end ratio they end up being, and then if you want to change the aperture (or the light or distance changes), you can simultaneously raise or lower the power of each strobe in the "all" mode and, critically, keep the ratios constant. That's pretty convenient if you want to work efficiently. That's where the ETTL mode is more convenient than the manual mode in the Canon flashes, because if the ratio is important, it's easy to chimp the correct exposure on the fly. As it is, in the manual mode, you have to change each one individually each time, I believe. It is cool, however, to see the power levels right there on the back of the master for each flash in the manual mode.
I received my 600 EX RT last week, it's a mighty fine looking flash and easier to use than the 580 EX II but for some reason from what I am seeing is my Metz 58 AF-2 is giving better flash exposures even in Manual flash mode which is kind of weird.
Well...I did some more fiddling with the flashes today. First of all Hi speed sync is
definitely alive and well on the 5d mark 2....seems you can shoot any shutter speed
and sync the flash...if set on ettl and your flash is close enough to subject...there
is no problem with light falloff.
As far as ratios go....your master is set at A automatically...you can set the slave to
B. go to Gr and dial your ratio...move cursor to right decreases the fill (master)..move
it to left increases the fill...simple. Now if you set the slave to C...you can dial the
two sliders independently. On the C slider , moving to right increases the exposure
go to left to decrease. Its the opposite with the AB channel.
Using the master as A and slave as B...you can also go to manual mode and dial in each flash individually...but shooting in a candid situation this would be too time
consuming.
One thing I have not discovered is the zoom function....if you have it on autozoom
the slave does not seem to adjust.
