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Archive 2002 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2

  
 
Paul Caldwell
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p.1 #1 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


I wanted to wait a day before I posted this information. Some may ask if I want some cheese with my whine, and I understand. However when you consider that 2400.00 is not a small piece of change, I figure some people out there may want to know this.

Since I have owned my S2, I have been overall greatly impressed by the image quality in that I have shot the D1x 15 months now and several digital bodies before that for 4 years. Before that I worked with film for at least 20 years. I have been always been in an amateur with photography, in that I don’t use it for my primary source of income. I have sold some of my work over the years, but never in a large scale. I can also say that these last 4 years have been by far the most interesting as the technology has grown in leaps and bounds.

I understand that all new products will undergo teething troubles; however I also expect that the company will attempt to address the concerns if they are valid, and not deny them.

Since the S2 was released, there have some concerns over various design issues and the like. Really not much has been said out overall image faults. However over the last two weeks various people have noticed the “patter or track” noise that the S2 can produce in certain images. Please check out www.outbackphoto.com and look at the 09/01/02 entry in Uwe’s S2 diary. Since this noise is presented in a pattern or series of tracks it is very damaging to the overall image. You can almost always see it in areas of an image that were underexposed. I see it in my work in leaves or water areas. Sometimes it can be removed, but many times the removal process will damage the image enough that you can’t recover the details. To assume that you can always get the perfect exposure every time, is a wrong assumption, especially in outdoor work. Many times, I am faced with a situation where I have to underexpose an image to keep certain highlights from blowing out, knowing that I have several methods to recover or combine later in Photoshop.

As an attempt to assist Fuji with this problem, I complied a very detailed listing of images and wrote a very detailed explanation of the problem, i.e. how best to find it. This package was delivered to their tech support group. I was told yesterday that no one at Fuji was able to see the problem period. Now I know the image I sent had the effect and others have reported it on this forum and other sites. I have to say that to have a company just deny an issue exists is pretty disappointing. I can reproduce it anytime with my camera.

I wanted to post this so others will be both aware of the problem and be aware of how callous a company like Fuji can be.

Paul Caldwell
[email protected]



Sep 07, 2002 at 02:44 PM
sammyc
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p.1 #2 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


That's very sad. Are you considering getting a different camera?

Sam



Sep 07, 2002 at 11:25 PM
Ricardo Maui
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p.1 #3 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


I just know one pro using and S2, saw him the other day at the beach and is very happy, Fuji must do something regarding this problem. If I'm you I 'll post the problem in every photo forum in the net.

Best luck.


Frances.



Sep 08, 2002 at 01:04 AM
barnettjeff
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p.1 #4 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


I have also had extremely dissapointing results in high ISOs. Track noise renders these images unuseable. Fuji has also denied that I have a problem, and suggested that I use on camera flash or a faster lens to get to a slower ISO. (they really said that)


Sep 29, 2003 at 05:36 PM
jxpfeer
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p.1 #5 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


well that really sucks. i was hoping to upgrade to an S2 soon... i hadn't heard of these complaints yet, now it's another thing to think about before i plunk down the $$ on it.

thanks for sharing that.



Sep 30, 2003 at 02:21 PM
jmcfadden
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p.1 #6 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


David Hankinson wrote:
I wanted to add to my previous note that I, too, know one Pro who bought an S2 - in fact he tried three of them and was not happy with them, ultimately returning them all. Like I said, I am extremely happy I bit the bullet and went back to Canon.



David

there are tons of folks that are happy owners of S2's and other Nikon gears, I am sad that Paul has had a poor experience, but the tone of your message has an implicit feel that Canon has never messed up , need I remind you of the focus issues with the 10D? How many people bit the bullet and came back to the Black lenses, believe me every large company spits out some crap now and again. The 10D is not in the same league as the S2 when it is working right.

J



Sep 30, 2003 at 03:08 PM
sdai
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p.1 #7 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


David Hankinson wrote:
... the S2 isn't in the same league as the 10D.


Wow, David, that's a very bold statement ... I do agree with you that the 10D does a sensational job but the S2 has some obvious advantages as well ... metering is for one ... the 10D doesn't have spot meter. Plus, highlight shall be easily blown out with CMOS cameras, D60, 10D, 300D and the 1Ds they're all no exceptions - no such headache with S2 at all. Also the S2 shall be easier to operate than the 10D with the direct access function buttons at the back.

IMO the stupidest thing with the S2 is its battery design ... that's the ONLY reason why I chose to dump it eventually.

Cheers,



Sep 30, 2003 at 04:08 PM
Arka
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p.1 #8 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


Why do the Nikon/Fuji bodies that sell for $2K or less all have cheap plastic construction? Not to start a flame war or anything; there are a lot of Nikon features the I wish made it into the Canon gear, not the least of which is responsiveness. but if I am going to throw that much money at a camera body (D100, S2), the least they could do is package the kit in something a little more rugged and professional-feeling than a plastic N80 body.

As to the Fuji, I have heard great things about its image quality. I recently talked with a Fuji rep at a photo workshop I attended, and they were talking about some updated models that are in the pipeline, including a 29 MP (!) model. I really hope, though, that they and Nikon raise the bar on the bodies. With so many sturdy, high quality lens options available for the Nikon crowd, I think it is unconscionable that Nikon continues to sell a $1700 dSLR in plastic. The superior body construction, awesome noise reduction, lower crop factors on the 1 series cameras, and the 'L' lenses are the things that are keeping me in the Canon camp these days.

Arka C.



Oct 02, 2003 at 03:38 AM
Brendan Getchel
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p.1 #9 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


lordarka wrote:
Why do the Nikon/Fuji bodies that sell for $2K or less all have cheap plastic construction? Not to start a flame war or anything; there are a lot of Nikon features the I wish made it into the Canon gear, not the least of which is responsiveness. but if I am going to throw that much money at a camera body (D100, S2), the least they could do is package the kit in something a little more rugged and professional-feeling than a plastic N80 body.



Ahhh... how quickly we forget...

It was only a few, short months ago that Canon's entry-level dSLR, the more expensive D60, was just as "plasticky" as the D100 -- and that is the camera pitted against the D100. Now Canon has done marvelously to introduce the 10D in a "one-upmanship" role. Both the D100 and D60 were fine at their $2,000 price points, but now that Canon has introduced the 10D all of the Canonites (and I are one) feel compelled to urinate on the D100 for its "inferior" construction? Let's be honest, shall we?

I tell you now, in the field I'll take a D100 10 times out of 10 over the 10D, and I don't even own one any more after making "the switch" (I own the 10D).

It's that much better than the 10D.



Oct 02, 2003 at 01:40 PM
camerapapi
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p.1 #10 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


If something really gets nasty in photography it has to be a discussion among the members of a forum. The "which one is better" is a relative term. What could be considered excellent by me probably stinks for you because it does not fit the way you work. Everyone has to deal with a lemon once in a while but if the problem is reported by more than one photographer then it is obvious that the problem exists. I have gone through some frustrating issues with Nikon but I remember when they were No. 1.
I have used Nikon for more than 35 years. I have had my problems, camera and lenses, over the years. In the 70's Nikon was at the top. They not only had excellent products but also spectacular service, specially for the professional. Today things have changed, their products are not so technically advanced compared to others, service could not be worse and all kind of courtesies with professionals and amateurs alike is practically gone. It is obvious, at least to me, that Ehrenreich Optical Industries is no more.
To those who complain about the poor customer's relation by Fuji just wait till you send the camera for service. I am afraid you are not going to like the surprise they have for you and they are already given you hints!
Canon, in my humble opinion, is the most technologically advanced camera today. They offer an excellent service, specially to professionals and their prices are very reasonable. I do not believe I have to tell anyone about their L series of lenses, among the best of the world.
The 10D had its AF problems in the begining but they were fast to correct them.They recognized the problem, fixed it free of charge and did not offer to the customers silly excuses. Has Nikon corrected the software of their D-100 for those soft images and the underexposure with matrix metering that have affected so many users? Of course not. Why do I want a S2 when I know that when problems arise I will not have good back up from Fuji. And all of this for $2000, body alone? C'mon.
I have not jumped into the digital wagon yet and continue to be (very stupid on my part) a Nikon die-hard. I have talked to Nikon and Canon about digital and gave me the impression the Canon Reps were more understanding and cooperative when I formulated my questions. At the end I had a "thank you for choosing Canon" while to my mentioning to Nikon that I have used their gear for so many years they just said "thank you".
It is a different ball game right now out there but something tells me that Canon is going to win the World Series at the long run.
William Rodriguez
Miami, Florida.



Oct 02, 2003 at 06:16 PM
Arka
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p.1 #11 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


BGetchel wrote:
:
Ahhh... how quickly we forget...

It was only a few, short months ago that Canon's entry-level dSLR, the more expensive D60, was just as "plasticky" as the D100 -- and that is the camera pitted against the D100. Now Canon has done marvelously to introduce the 10D in a "one-upmanship" role. Both the D100 and D60 were fine at their $2,000 price points, but now that Canon has introduced the 10D all of the Canonites (and I are one) feel compelled to urinate on the D100 for its "inferior" construction? Let's be honest, shall we?

I tell you now, in the field
...Show more

I see the flame war has already begun.. (sigh)

I was not proverbially 'urinating' on the D100. As I think I stated, there are features that I really like about the D100, especially it's reponsiveness. But having used both units, I simply cannot abide by the assertion that the D100 is '10 times' better than the 10D in the field, as you state. It's really not true, and the fact that you are currently using a 10D seems to indicate that, at least one time out ten, you would take a 10D into the field. But that is neither here nor there.

What I have been interested in are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each platform. As I see it, the strengths in a platform are in the camera and lens's ability to allow you capture an image the way you see it, and to do it in adverse conditions for the longest time possible. As it stands, I think that the D100 is probably still a little better at letting you capture the picture, even the most fleeting ones, due in no small part to its fast startup and preview times. It also seems to have a better flash metering system, which I would love to see in the Canon end.

But Canon has made headway in other areas, not the least of which is noise reduction, which the 10D excels at. Lower crop factors in the 1D and 1Ds, for those of us who enjoy shooting wide are also nice, though perhaps not as relevant when talking about the 10D/D100/S2 price point. Nonetheless, the direction that Canon is going with the crop factor issue is made pretty clear with the 1D and 1Ds, and I think it is a far better approach than Nikon's 'wider lens' approach, regardless of how specialized the new Nikkors are for their sensors. To my mind, designing sensors that work with legacy film lenses is a far better option than redesigning available lens lineups to match the sensor. After all, what loses value faster? The lenses you already own or the camera body you are hoping to get?

In terms of long term durabilty, I think Canon has the crown at the moment. Let us forget for a moment that the 10D came out after the D100, as that is really immaterial. What matters is that both are available now, and I think that the 10D will be able to take more abuse in the long run than the D100. I prefer the metal body construction, and whether it came out as a response to the D100 or as the simple epiphany of a Canon engineering team is of little importance to me as a consumer and photographer. What matters more is that, for the same price, I can choose between two cameras of relatively equal technological prowess, and one is in a metal body. For my needs and wants, the choice is quite simple.

And in echoing the sentiments of Camerapapi about a company's committment to service, I can tell you that Canon is far more attentive to its customers than Nikon. I deal with Nikon on a sami-regular basis, and trying to get a Nikon rep to answer my questions or call me back is like trying to get a dog to read a newspaper. They are just horrendous, be it general photography equipment or scientific optics. Their product quality is strong, but their support is among the worst in the industry. With my personal Canon equipment, on the other hand, I find a far more receptive ear at Canon USA, and they always have simple and well informed answers to my questions. And in the long term ownership experience, where support for the hardware will be as important as the quality of the hardware itself, I think Canon has set off in the right direction.

Arka C.



Oct 02, 2003 at 06:49 PM
Brendan Getchel
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p.1 #12 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


lordarka wrote:
I was not proverbially 'urinating' on the D100. As I think I stated, there are features that I really like about the D100, especially it's reponsiveness. But having used both units, I simply cannot abide by the assertion that the D100 is '10 times' better than the 10D in the field, as you state. It's really not true, and the fact that you are currently using a 10D seems to indicate that, at least one time out ten, you would take a 10D into the field. But that is neither here nor there.



LD, where did I say that the D100 is "10 time better than the 10D in the field"? I didn't say that anywhere, and I don't see any flame war(s) in this thread (yet). I've not only "used" both, but rather I have *owned* both, for many months, at the same time, and I've posted extensive comparison reviews to that effect over at DPR in the past. There is only ONE reason I own a 10D -- the long, stabilized Canon primes (500/4 and 600/4). I don't own it because I prefer the body, but rather prefer the D100 for 90% of my photography as the 10D is very slow and unresponsive, lacks a spot meter, has the world's worst AF selector, is poor in moderate to low light AF, and has other issues. I prefer it's image quality, hands down (although 10D JPEGs are as soft or softer than even the D100 out of camera), low noise, and long exposure capability.

For me, only the 1Ds will satisfy, but as an amateur I am forced to wait until they come down into the $5,000 range before I make the leap. For now, the 10D is a band aid, stop-gap measure that grants me access to the extensive IS/USM line of EF lenses. For the time being I will have to put up with the frustrations and limitations of the 10D for that reason.



Oct 02, 2003 at 08:44 PM
Arka
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p.1 #13 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


That perspective I can certainly understand, as I too am waiting for something that gives me a little more flexibility and control than the 10D. A 1Ds would be awesome, but as an amateur, I also would have a hard time justifying it. But in comparison to the Nikon equipment, which I used extensively if not owned, I honestly found the 10D's image quality was far better, even as the Nikon made it easier to capture images by virtue of its speed and responsiveness. So it looks like we are in agreement on most of these issues. The point I was not convinced on was your statement that, 10 times out of 10, you would take a D100 over a 10D in the field. To paraphrase the statement as meaning that the d100 is ten times better might've been overstepping a bit, but if you are more than ten times as likely to choose one unit over the other, I must assume that, for your specific of application, one unit is ten times better than the other. I just was not in agreement with you on that point; I think the 10D has a lot to offer in spite of some of its more irritating limitations, which I most definitely acknowledge. I also don't think I'm bashing ('urinating') on the d100, but rather am pointing out that the choice of body materials is not up to the same standard as the current EOS digital lineup (with the exception of the 300D)

In any case, I just wanted to clear up my misconceptions on what you said and leave this discussion thread as friends, especially in light of the fact that we agree on far more than we disagree.

Arka C.



Oct 02, 2003 at 09:01 PM
jmcfadden
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p.1 #14 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


I have only a few things to say as I cannot believe this thread

The 10D was put out to stop the bleeding from the D60, the comparison to make is the D100 vs the D60 , they are the cameras that came out within months of each other. Any honest person who has shot both these cameras would pick the Nikon hands down , there is simply NO comparison, the D100 is so much better in high ISO it is not even funn, instant previews on a big screen, much better metering , much more responsive, and ergonomically there is no comparison either , the D100 is a great camera and stands so well even today.

I think my work stands as a testament to this camera. 10D owners would be well advised to remember they are holding a lineage that is 5 iterations into this wonderful world of digital, so go back to the aimless bashing of this camera and not taking pictures and leave me in a field of flowers with my D100

J



Oct 02, 2003 at 09:15 PM
jmcfadden
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p.1 #15 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


From another thread by

this statement says it all

by Sectarian, (Mark Henninger) beware measurebators!

Registered: Jan 27, 2003
Total Posts: 398
Country: United States
Re: Nikon's answer to the Rebel Digital?

Considering the razzing I recieve whenever I discuss Nikon on the Canon boards, I think the responses to this post are quite thoughtful and restrained.

As a rule Canon makes fine products. I just plunked down a couple grand for their GL-2 video-cam. I also bought a Canon i9100 printer a few weeks ago. I have no prejudice against the company. That said, Canon has released a series of digital SLRs that do not impress me as revolutionary.

Canon's rapid-fire product releases have provided incremental improvements in price/performance, but have also caused previous models resale values to plummet. I don't see this as having any great benefit. Professionals aren't interested in a 6-month product lifespan. Canon's tactics seem more of a cynical attempt to squeeze more money out of all the measurebators out there.

camerapapi says: You should do very well with what you have at present and a good film scanner.

A good film scanner...you must mean a drum scanner, or an Imacon Flextight. One thing is for certain...without a $5000+ scanner you will not obtain digital files with the image quality a good DSLR can provide. DSLR cameras are a much better investment.

As for the premium a Fuji S2 or a Nikon D100 command over the consumer Canons...you do get what you pay for



Oct 02, 2003 at 09:23 PM
Brendan Getchel
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p.1 #16 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


lordarka wrote:
In any case, I just wanted to clear up my misconceptions on what you said and leave this discussion thread as friends, especially in light of the fact that we agree on far more than we disagree.



No problem. Forums are a difficult place to pick up on nuances, and I've alway appreciated your input. And I would agree with you that we agree on more than we disagree on (if that makes any sense) on this issue.


Brendan



Oct 02, 2003 at 09:27 PM
Arka
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p.1 #17 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


JMcfadden,

I don't mean any offense, as I do admire your work, but I think that all the people in this forum are pretty passionate about what they do in photography, and most of us certainly try to get out and shoot whenever we can. Keeping that in mind, I don't really see the discussions posted here as 'aimless bashings,' but rather, as criticism on areas where some platforms are doing better than others. I appreciate the notion that we should be using our equipment, and I also appreciate the fact that you prefer your d100 over the Canon stuff. You are entitled to that opinion, but that is not the opinion of every 'honest person.'

The reason we have equipment forums is to discuss equipment; problems, buzz, preferences, features, etc. We do so to improve our time in the field, be it a 'field of flowers' or any other. I am a Canon user in a Nikon forum because I am genuinely interested in the strengths and weaknesses of all systems, since in the end they are a source of pride and a vehicle for our creativity.

Incidentally, I think there are plenty of posters here that can probably provide testament to the excellence of the 10D, 1D, 1Ds, S2, D1H or any other camera on the market or in history. To be able to discuss the merits of each system with in an objective manner can help us tailor our equipment preferences. And if, according to your post, any honest person who shot with both cameras would prefer the Nikon hands down, Canon would not be in the pro market. So perhaps people just are not being all that honest. Or, perhaps, there are reasons to prefer the 10D that extend beyond the simple ability to use EF lenses.

I know for a fact that many professional photographers use and prefer the 10D for some of the reasons already discussed in this thread; image quality and noise control mostly. I am not entirely certain that your generalization regarding 'honest' shooters would apply to the people that I know, or to myself, who believe that each system has its merits and minuses. It's fine to feel strongly attached to a platform; as a Mac user, I can certainly understand how one can get passionate about these things, but the critical consumer is what drives the industry forward. I can think of a few things that both the 10D and the d100 can improve on. Just because I spend the time to discuss that on a forum does not imply that I am 'aimlessly bashing' while others are shooting. After all, you are posting here too...

Arka C.



Oct 02, 2003 at 10:25 PM
jmcfadden
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p.1 #18 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


Arka

If you will re-read my coments , they were confined solely to the comparison between the D100 and the D60 , as those cameras came out roughly at the same time. I have no truck with Canon shooters , heck the guy I shoot with all the time shoots Canon, I used to shoot the EOS film system.

I stand by my assertion the D100 is a better camera than the D60, is that to say I would never shoot Canon , no way to me it is a tool. But if you had to deal with the innanities of Canon shooters who are far more provintial toward their gear than most any Nikon shooter. Heck just read the kinds of questions asked here and then the questions in the Canon forum, you will find as a general rule Canon shooters are concerned about specs way more than Nikon shooters , endless shots of "brick walls" will never be seen in the Nikon area.

I did not start this argument but it is hard to sit by and allow silliness with out responding.

This thread was originally about the S2 , Mr Hankinson showing the typical bravado of a Canonite made my point clearly, the 10D is not in the league of the S2 I can point you to forums which are unbiased , that basically show that as a function of shear resolution (not plasticy bodies , frame rates, weather sealing ect) that the 1ds and the S2 are in a dead heat, now I know that may come as some suprise but it is factual.

Would I have the 1Ds over the S2 if money were no object , in a heartbeat!

As for the assertions about the DX series of lenses , well can you honestly say that every canon shooter was predicting that "the next thing from canon" had to be "full frame"?

As for me Feild of View is all that matters! I do not think of anything anymore as I am not in a mixed world of having to think about it as I only shoot digital now so I think about the shot I want as a function of that and not film. When I shoot 4x5 I never think oh jeeezes I wish it looked like my 35mm , but still what I see on the ground glass is what I will be taking a picture of. Now for me I shoot what is there not what I wish were there !

Canon is doing a dis-service not suppling lenses designed for their system this is sad , so Look at all the Canon people poopooing the fact that "Nikon has given in" well yes they have given in to the fact that they are delivering DX lenses specifically optimized and designed for the "current" sensors, heck they are an Optics company this is to be applauded and not scorned , A 10mm fisheye that with 1 click in their RAW editor can be "de-fished" is amazing! 2 lenses for the price of 1

Why do people who need a wide angle lens buy a Sigma Hmmmmmmmm, because Canon wides are not up to par.

The new lenses are wonderful and answer my needs , Nikon is banking on the sensor size they have and delivering lenses to me their customer, not a mixed paradime of 35mm film lenses which happen to fit on the digital body and I think that is great. Since I have the field of view now dipping into the 10mm range ( I currently have the 12-24 AFS) I have my "wides" back and the lens is amazing , has the image circle for my camera, has a 77mm thread for ALL my filters just like the rest of their pro line lenses , this is service.

I think in terms of shear image quality the 10d edges out the D100, but that is only 1 of many reasons to buy a camera, the feel in the field , the ease of the menus , the ergonomice , the responsiveness , the instant preview , the spot meter (crucial in my work) the matrix balanced fill flash all these things and more ,

do I wish it had a deeper buffer, more FPS, and a higher flash sync you bet , do I wish I had a D60 , not by a long shot , and that was my original point

I have no problem discussing different systems merits , strengths and weaknesses , I expect that others do the same , just as you have done.

I don't need to hear "switchers" over and over relate ancecdotal reports of "bad experiences" as all of us have them

J



Oct 02, 2003 at 10:54 PM
sdai
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p.1 #19 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


I read Paul's post again and since feel you guys are completely off topic now ... let's pick up JPEG vs RAW again ...


Oct 02, 2003 at 10:59 PM
jmcfadden
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p.1 #20 · Major Disappointment with Fuji and S2


sdai wrote:
I read Paul's post again and since feel you guys are completely off topic now ... let's pick up JPEG vs RAW again ...



Hear , Hear , the voice of reason!

If you knew how to work a raw editor I might agree with you

J



Oct 02, 2003 at 11:07 PM
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