That's a combination that would definitely bring out any serious moiré problems the D800E could be prone to. You might end up wanting your AA filter back once every in-focus area of your photos turns into a psychedelic color burst
mpmendenhall wrote:
That's a combination that would definitely bring out any serious moiré problems the D800E could be prone to. You might end up wanting your AA filter back once every in-focus area of your photos turns into a psychedelic color burst
I have been weighing the moire potential of the D800E as well. There are now some decent side by side shots which have been taken with both the D800E and D800 from a polish site. With Nikkor lenses and various subject matter, some of which should clearly be moire issues, I have only seen a hint of it in one example - fine, intricate tree limbs against the sky. These examples have also shown that the D800 AA filter is relatively weak. The subtle visible difference between the two is micro-contrast. The question then arises, if one plans to use better glass with these cameras - Zeiss, Leica - to what degree will moire issues be exaggerated? I'm guessing the better lenses will basically cut through the weak AA filter of the D800, probably a positive in most cases, but will exaggerate moire with the D800e.
Thus, I could see a situation where:
D800E + Nikkor lenses = beautiful results, moire rarely an issue.
D800 + best alt lenses = same or better than above.
D800E + best alt lenses = potentially a moire disaster waiting to happen.
I thought of this combo; I have a 280/4 APO. From a pixel density perspective I think the NEX-7 might pose a tougher challenge to the Telyt than the D800E.
Ajay C wrote:
I thought of this combo; I have a 280/4 APO. From a pixel density perspective I think the NEX-7 might pose a tougher challenge to the Telyt than the D800E.
true, but the lens should have no trouble with either of the sensors. i'm sure the d800e will give more satisfying whole images, but if you want extra reach for little critters the NEX-7 (or a77 with a mirrorectomy) would be pretty sweet with that lens.
i have to say bird feathers can produce some pretty crazy moire, you might discover some new iridescent species shooting them with the d800.
sebboh wrote:
i have to say bird feathers can produce some pretty crazy moire, you might discover some new iridescent species shooting them with the d800.
With the 280mm f/4 APO and DMR (no AA filter) I see moire in about 1 in 100 photos, most of the time it's either so minor that nobody will notice it or it's easily fixed. OTOH the quail genus Callipepla (California Quail & Gambel's Quail) produces the craziest moire I've ever seen, even with a Nikon D200 with AA filter. Very time-consuming to fix. Most other species it's no big deal.
telyt wrote:
With the 280mm f/4 APO and DMR (no AA filter) I see moire in about 1 in 100 photos, most of the time it's either so minor that nobody will notice it or it's easily fixed. OTOH the quail genus Callipepla (California Quail & Gambel's Quail) produces the craziest moire I've ever seen, even with a Nikon D200 with AA filter. Very time-consuming to fix. Most other species it's no big deal.
i've been noticing it quite a bit lately on humming birds. the fact that they actually are iridescent doesn't make it any easier to fix.
There is a reason why DMR or D800E has no AA filter. The AA filter degrades lens resolution a lot. It would be great if Canon came out a filter free 5D3.
Good thoughts. I would imagine that if I get the 800E and do not like the results with my high resolving lenses, a resale should not be too difficult. Now,what to do
Well, looking at leica. The M9 with the longer M lenses (say 90 cron, or 90 macro elmar) isn't a moire monster. So why should a nikon with leica lens will?
Don't have tests comparing the 280 against the 90 cron or elmar, but the latter are pretty sharp.
Bijltje wrote:
Well, looking at leica. The M9 with the longer M lenses (say 90 cron, or 90 macro elmar) isn't a moire monster. So why should a nikon with leica lens will?
Don't have tests comparing the 280 against the 90 cron or elmar, but the latter are pretty sharp.
longer lenses should actually be be harder to provoke moire with simply due to the narrower dof. i've certainly 90mm m9 shots that were moire disasters, but that's because the photographer either didn't know what they were doing or was purposely trying to provoke it. it's really shooting fashion that it is easiest to see.
Bijltje wrote:
Well, looking at leica. The M9 with the longer M lenses (say 90 cron, or 90 macro elmar) isn't a moire monster. So why should a nikon with leica lens will?
Don't have tests comparing the 280 against the 90 cron or elmar, but the latter are pretty sharp.
Probably has a lot more to do with the subject matter shot.
I just got off the phone with MaxMax @ HR conversions. We were discussing the the possibility of an HR for my 5D, relative to my experience with my SLR/c.
The general rule of thumb is that the sharper the lens, the more susceptible it is to moire'. My Sigma 100-300/4 was the first one to show me some moire' on a golf shirt & golf bag. My 24L TS-E II got hit me up pretty strong on a radiator grill of an old truck. These are but a couple different examples of how it can reveal itself.
I'm a fan of non-AA, but it does have it's issues. The thing @ the D800E that is particularly of interest/uncertainty for me is the pixel density ... and how that impacts both moire' and diffraction.
According to MaxMax (and other testing) the AA filter can range from 10-15% upwards of 20+% difference in sharpness. But, how much that is going to be offset by the diffraction involved @ the D800E diffraction @ stopped down apertures makes me wonder if the Gazillion MP is counter-productive in the quest for optimal sharpness/detail.
Yet, it also makes me wonder to what degree it will offset moire' @ stopped down vs. apertures that have not hit diffraction yet.
Time will tell ... watching to see how it actually shakes out in the real world.
Dont worry about moiré from this combo. Moiré issue with 36 mpix FF will be really hard to get, its not issue even on lower mpix counts (everything over 20 mpix FF is fine).
Plus moiré is man-made structure issue, just shoot some nice BIFs and dont care. Btw. D800E isnt true "AA-free" camera.
RustyBug wrote:
I just got off the phone with MaxMax @ HR conversions. We were discussing the the possibility of an HR for my 5D, relative to my experience with my SLR/c.
The general rule of thumb is that the sharper the lens, the more susceptible it is to moire'. My Sigma 100-300/4 was the first one to show me some moire' on a golf shirt & golf bag. My 24L TS-E II got hit me up pretty strong on a radiator grill of an old truck. These are but a couple different examples of how it can reveal itself.
I'm a fan of non-AA, but it does have it's issues. The thing @ the D800E that is particularly of interest/uncertainty for me is the pixel density ... and how that impacts both moire' and diffraction.
According to MaxMax (and other testing) the AA filter can range from 10-15% upwards of 20+% difference in sharpness. But, how much that is going to be offset by the diffraction involved @ the D800E diffraction @ stopped down apertures makes me wonder if the Gazillion MP is counter-productive in the quest for optimal sharpness/detail.
Yet, it also makes me wonder to what degree it will offset moire' @ stopped down vs. apertures that have not hit diffraction yet.
Time will tell ... watching to see how it actually shakes out in the real world....Show more →
Well as far as I know, if you stop extra sharp wide-angle lens to f11 or f16 on D800E, you will be diffraction limited and no need to worry about moiré. Only issue will be probably man made fabrics and some shorter super-good lens stopped down to f4-5.6 (something like 50mm f2 ZF comes to my mind..). And as I said, D800E isnt true AA-free camera like Kodak or HR moded 5D (which btw. does have issues with moiré quite a bit even with AA in place).
Mescalamba wrote:
Plus moiré is man-made structure issue, just shoot some nice BIFs and dont care.
You didn't read the above posts from sebboh and telyt? Bird's feathers can show moiré. They have high frequency patterns and are most certainly not man-made.
Moire can show up in natural subject matter such as fine tree branches as well (not just bird feathers). The best D800/ D800E comparisons I have seen thus far are from this polish test of the two cameras:
Surprisingly, only in one shot have I noticed any hint of moire and it was with tree branches. This was shot with the Nikkor 35 1.4G at F5.6. My concern with the D800E is what happens with a similar shot taken with a high resolving/ high contrast lens such as one of the ZF.2 35's and or in better light with more contrast. I'm betting this would be much worse.
This color moire does not really concern me too much overall. It's the luminous moire such as shown with the Nikon Kimono example which would be a real nightmare.
Mescalamba wrote:
Dont worry about moiré from this combo. Moiré issue with 36 mpix FF will be really hard to get, its not issue even on lower mpix counts (everything over 20 mpix FF is fine).
i've said this again and again, but NO the above statement is absolutely not true. any crappy $50 lens can outresolve a 36mp sensor in the center (and thus produce moire). it seems pretty easy to provoke moire with the NEX-5N, which has the same pixel density as d800 and even has an AA filter. the lens talked about in the OP is one of leica's sharpest lenses EVER. so, yeah it should have no trouble producing moire on the d800e in the right situation.
They are far away and tiny, but with this resolving power... 
