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Archive 2012 · CV vs CZ

  
 
Bifurcator
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p.1 #1 · CV vs CZ


So since I seem to be caught with both the best of the Zeiss 100mm lenses (the Zeiss MP100 F/2.8 C/Y AEG - which has better IQ and CA control than the newer version(s) as well as a full 1:1 macro), and also the newly discovered (for me) Voigtlander APO Lanthar 125mm f/2.5 SL, I'm in a position to compare the two in a heads-up fashion.

I love macro as well as medium length telephotos so 6 months ago or so when I heard the Zeiss was the ultimate in both I just had to get it and try it out! And wow was I impressed with it too! It was better than anything I had tried preciously with the exception of the Canon MP-E 65mm and the Olympus 38mm F/2.8 - both of which are dedicated macro-only lenses with a less than optimal working distance - ultimate speciality lenses tho they are and then some! The zeiss however was also by far the sharpest short telephoto lens I had used for anything over a 1m subject distance. It was so different, so much better, I thought maybe it was out-resolving my GH1 sensor.

The AEG C/Y MP version of the Zeiss lens is noticeably better than the other C/Y100mm versions - notably the C/Y Planar 100mm f2.0 and the C/Y Sonar 100mm F/3.5. When the Voigtlander Image thread happened and I additionally started using my Voigtlander 50/1.5 all at about the same time. With the 50/1.5 being a fairly inexpensive and yet a very impressive lens - and with everyone saying how good the APO 125mm Lanthar was in that thread and elsewhere, I wanted to try it out for myself. I assumed the Zeiss would either match it or kick it's butt and I was hoping for the later - being retired with no income and the Zeiss being a little less than half the price of the Lanthar, I could afford to keep the Zeiss in my collection a little longer. Thus my hopes.

So I tracked down a new CV APO Lanthar and purchased it - I selected an OM mount version because OM is more easily adaptable to Nikon, Canon, Sony, and Pentax. Well, as soon as I mounted it on my camera and looked through the EVF my hopes were dashed! It was obviously and markedly better than my Zeiss. Damn! Damn-damn-damn!

To quantify and qualify "better" is what this thread is about for me. I'll be adding what I consider to be meaningful examples and comparisons over the coming weeks. Feel free to discuss any aspects of these two lens models or ask any questions you might have. I may not know the answers but someone here probably will.

Here are the stats of the two lenses and some side by side shots:




CZ Lens Composition: 7 elements, 7 groups ----- CV Lens Composition: 11 elements, 9 groups
CZ Aperture Blades: 8, Curved type ----- CV Aperture Blades: 9, Curved type
CZ Angular Field: 24 degrees ----- CV Angular Field: 20 degrees








CZ Working Distance: 160mm @ 1:1 MFD ----- CV Working Distance: 226mm @ 1:1 MFD
CZ Minimum Focus: 410mm (16 in) (1:1) ----- CV Minimum Focus: 380mm (15 in) (1:1)
CZ F-stop scale: f2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22 ----- CV F-stop scale: f2.5, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22
CZ Filter Size: 67mm screw-in type ----- CV Filter Size: 58mm screw-in type








CZ Lens hood: screw-in type No. 4 metal hood (with 67/86 ring) ----- CV Lens hood: Bayonet mount Square metal hood (included)
CZ Weight: 740 grams (1.63 lbs) ----- CV Weight: 690 grams (1.52 lbs)
CZ Lens size: ø76mm x 86.5mm (length) ----- CV Lens size: ø76mm x 88.2mm (length)
CZ Available Mounts: C/Y ----- CV Available Mounts: F (AIS), FD, K-A, K-AF, M42, MD, C/Y, EOS-EF (no aperture ring!), and OM




One of the tests I do with just about every lens I get which has the ability for focus down to 1m or less, is to point it at my LCD monitor showing a white blank area. This tells me a number things including sharpness, micro-bloom if I may coin that term, and near-focusing field curvature. I think it may also tell how well the spectral zones R, G, and B are corrected for at short distances. Right? If I nail the focus for a green cell for example, then how well the red and blue ones appear to be in focus is a sign of how well the lens is correcting for those wave lengths... So here are both lenses wide open at 1:1, mounted on the GH1, mounted on my macro-rails, mounted on a sturdy tripod, and focused on the green cell (focus brackets of 5):



Voigtlander APO Lanthar Macro 125mm f/2.5 SL Series 1
100% Crop




Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar 100mm F/2.8 C/Y AE Germany
100% Crop



I'll let you draw your own conclusions but it's fairly obvious to me that the CV just ripped the CZ a new one! And lest I forget to mention it; that CZ example is exceptional among other lenses!


Another test I like is the 1m (w/50mm lens) rez-chart. I usually only use it for comparing similar lenses like these or a batch or Normals, so that it remains a comparison and not a scientific number generator. This test again tells me sharpness but additionally tells me how the lens influences the camera's Auto White balance. I power-bracket 5 frames turning the camera off then on, then critically focusing at 20x mag, shooting, and then repeating for the other 4 shots. This (I think) helps to ensure that the AWB and AE levels aren't a fluke of some kind. With one lens being 100mm and the other 125mm, Both at approximately 2m away, I had to move the CZ a little closer to identically match the magnification. In this regard the Zeiss has a very slight advantage - but probably nothing measurable.




CZ @ f/2.8 - 100% Crop


CV @ f/2.5 - 100% Crop






CZ @ f/5.6 - 100% Crop


CV @ f/5.6 - 100% Crop




Again, I'll let you draw your own conclusions. For me the CV is still clearly superior but the differences are less pronounced than at the lens's respective 1:1 minimum focus distances (MFD). The AWB is loving the CV whereas the CZ is causing the results to come out slightly shifted to the blue/red. The weather here is still on-and off lousy and the nice days seem to be clashing with my moods and interests - but soon I'll take these guys outside for some real-world tests... at least on a GH1 anyway... if anyone is interested I mean.



EDIT: I originally had my wires crossed and said that the C/Y MP-100/2.8 had tested better than the "Newer Zeiss 100mm f/2.0" lenses when in fact I meant that it had tested better than the older C/Y 100mm f/2.0 lenses. This caused considerable off topic side chatter which may be confusing to the reader and for which I apologize. Oops!

Edited on Mar 12, 2012 at 05:12 AM · View previous versions



Mar 02, 2012 at 02:04 PM
briantho
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p.1 #2 · CV vs CZ


Of course we're interested. Looking forward to the real world comparisons. But... Didn't I just see your CV for sale? Hmmmm


Mar 02, 2012 at 03:18 PM
Bifurcator
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p.1 #3 · CV vs CZ


Yep, I can't afford to keep it long. But that's nothing... All my lenses are always for sale. All...






Mar 02, 2012 at 03:27 PM
AhamB
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p.1 #4 · CV vs CZ


Bifurcator wrote:
So since I seem to be caught with both the best of the Zeiss 100mm lenses (the Zeiss MP100 F/2.8 C/Y AEG - which has better IQ and CA control than the newer version(s) as well as a full 1:1 macro), and also the newly discovered (for me) Voigtlander APO Lanthar 125mm f/2.5 SL, I'm in a position to compare the two in a heads-up fashion.

[...]

The AEG C/Y version of the Zeiss lens is noticeably better than the newer Zeiss versions currently in production


Have you actually tested the ZF/ZE 100/2 MP? Yes, it has more CA than the C/Y 100/2.8, but I've read (from Toothwalker IIRC) that the ZF/ZE is sharper, especially at 1:2.

You should try the Leica APO Macro Elmarit 100/2.8 some time, by the way.



Mar 02, 2012 at 03:32 PM
Bifurcator
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p.1 #5 · CV vs CZ


Yup, about a week ago I tried one for a day.
...
...
...
I might actually try the Leica after this Lanthar is gone.






Mar 02, 2012 at 04:40 PM
denoir
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p.1 #6 · CV vs CZ


Bifurcator wrote:
The AEG C/Y version of the Zeiss lens is noticeably better than the newer Zeiss versions currently in production so I ignored the comments made about the Voigtlander being better than the Zeiss - thinking people were probably comparing with the newer Zeiss versions which are a little less sharp with quilt a lot more CA wide open (relatively speaking) than my AEG C/Y version.


As somebody who has owned both for quite some time, I very much disagree with that statement. My 100 ZE MP was about a stop ahead of my C/Y 100 MP (i.e at f/2 it is as sharp as the C/Y at f/2.8 and at f/4 as sharp as the C/Y at f/5.6). (This is by the way confirmed by the MTF charts). The C/Y has some (lateral) CA issues while the ZE is free of it. Both are prone to LoCA.

I'm not going to comment on the CV as I have not used it much (tried one out for a couple of days).



Mar 02, 2012 at 05:25 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.1 #7 · CV vs CZ


AhamB wrote:
Have you actually tested the ZF/ZE 100/2 MP? Yes, it has more CA than the C/Y 100/2.8, but I've read (from Toothwalker IIRC) that the ZF/ZE is sharper, especially at 1:2.

You should try the Leica APO Macro Elmarit 100/2.8 some time, by the way.


AhamB - I'd appreciate your feedback on how the Leica 100/2.8 compares to the Zeiss 100MP. I have heard quite a few comments that the Leica "has no equal" as a macro lens. I'm just not clear as to what particular performance characteristics it has which the Zeiss does not. Any feedback (from anyone) would be most appreciated.



Mar 02, 2012 at 05:33 PM
j.liam
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p.1 #8 · CV vs CZ


Lloyd Chambers did a brief comparison in his subscription site. His conclusions were that they both functioned at such a high level that it really distilled down to a few things that may sway the user, like bokeh potentials at ƒ/2 vs. ƒ/2.8, the noticeable OOF color fringing of the Z* and living with stop-down metering (Leica). Of course there's a different rendering style too but that's subjective.

Also, this comparison may be helpful too:

http://www.slrlensreview.com/web/entry/100mm-macro-comparison-part1



Mar 02, 2012 at 06:14 PM
Bifurcator
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p.1 #9 · CV vs CZ


Bifurcator wrote:
The AEG C/Y version of the Zeiss lens is noticeably better than the newer Zeiss versions currently in production so I ignored the comments made about the Voigtlander being better than the Zeiss - thinking people were probably comparing with the newer Zeiss versions which are a little less sharp with quilt a lot more CA wide open (relatively speaking) than my AEG C/Y version.


denoir wrote:
As somebody who has owned both for quite some time, I very much disagree with that statement. My 100 ZE MP was about a stop ahead of my C/Y 100 MP (i.e at f/2 it is as sharp as the C/Y at f/2.8 and at f/4 as sharp as the C/Y at f/5.6). (This is by the way confirmed by the MTF charts). The C/Y has some (lateral) CA issues while the ZE is free of it. Both are prone to LoCA.

I'm not going to comment on the CV as I have not used it much (tried one out for
...Show more

You could be right. I originally had my wires crossed when I said that the C/Y MP-100/2.8 had tested better than the "Newer Zeiss 100mm f/2.0" lenses. In fact I meant that it had tested better than the older C/Y 100mm f/2.0 lenses. Oops!





Edited on Mar 09, 2012 at 05:08 PM · View previous versions



Mar 02, 2012 at 10:51 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.1 #10 · CV vs CZ


Hmm any reviews on the Leica 100mm F2.8 APO Macro as a general purpose lens? How is it at infinity?


Mar 02, 2012 at 11:34 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.1 #11 · CV vs CZ


I am thinking the same thing.... I know it excels at macro but how does it perform under other conditions..... Sure does have a great reputation though!


Mar 02, 2012 at 11:39 PM
Bifurcator
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p.1 #12 · CV vs CZ


https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/811135/2#lastmessage

and:

Elmarit 100 vs Lanthar 100.




Edited on Mar 03, 2012 at 12:26 AM · View previous versions



Mar 03, 2012 at 12:09 AM
crazeazn
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p.1 #13 · CV vs CZ


awesome comparo!


Mar 03, 2012 at 12:22 AM
wiseguy010
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p.1 #14 · CV vs CZ


Bifurcator wrote:
Many users here have complained of LoCA and PF with the ZF/ZE/etc. versions.


Many users? I didn't see them. Yes there are some examples of LoCA, but certainly not many.

My impression is that you are working to a predefined conclusion with your tests.

But still interesting.



Mar 03, 2012 at 05:50 AM
Makten
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p.1 #15 · CV vs CZ


Bear in mind that you are using a camera with extremely high pixel density, equal to 48 megapixels on FF. That might show "weaknesses" that won't ever be resolved on the cameras these lenses were intended for. Resolution is only one parameter of image quality, and in my opinion it's the least important one.


Mar 03, 2012 at 05:58 AM
AhamB
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p.1 #16 · CV vs CZ


Gary Clennan wrote:
AhamB - I'd appreciate your feedback on how the Leica 100/2.8 compares to the Zeiss 100MP. I have heard quite a few comments that the Leica "has no equal" as a macro lens. I'm just not clear as to what particular performance characteristics it has which the Zeiss does not. Any feedback (from anyone) would be most appreciated.


Gary, I don't have the Leica, but this is the best comparison I've seen so far: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/0#9747210

For me it shows that the Leica has the richest color and perhaps a slight lead in sharpness, but this also manifests as slightly more harsh bokeh than the ZE/ZF 100/2 MP. I don't know how the "pop" of the Leica is at greater distances, where the Zeiss is extremely strong. I've also heard that the Leica has some slight field curvature at infinity but haven't seen samples of that.



Mar 03, 2012 at 06:43 AM
denoir
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p.1 #17 · CV vs CZ


Makten wrote:
Bear in mind that you are using a camera with extremely high pixel density, equal to 48 megapixels on FF. That might show "weaknesses" that won't ever be resolved on the cameras these lenses were intended for. Resolution is only one parameter of image quality, and in my opinion it's the least important one.


+1

I've used the lenses on a camera with far lower pixel density. I can't vouch how they perform at 120 lp/mm.



Mar 03, 2012 at 06:48 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #18 · CV vs CZ


I have used the Contax several years on Canon bodies. It is easily my most favorite macro lens. It has a drawing style particularly suited for macro shots, and has an extended DOF effect that Zeiss designs in some lenses, and as mentioned in Dr. Nasse document, it sacrifices some sharpness at the point of focus in order to extend the area of acceptable sharpness beyond the usual limits.


Mar 03, 2012 at 07:31 AM
AhamB
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p.1 #19 · CV vs CZ


Bifurcator wrote:
Don't you have that backwards? Many users here have complained of LoCA and PF with the ZF/ZE/etc. versions. Check out the Zeiss discussion threads. The AEG C/Y version has none - like, at all... I bought two of them and neither one had any. LaCA is usually associated with wide angle lenses and affects the corners most. The MP 100 is not wide angle so I would be kinda surprised to find any, Of course if it was there I might not know it being at a 2:1 crop factor with this µ4/3. I've put my copies through some very
...Show more

But you never see the corners of the lens with your MFT camera, and that's where the LaCA occurs... (esp. at f/2.8, where some slight field curvature or astigmatism may be aggravating things). In the image center you won't see LaCA per definition, so no wonder you didn't see it with your GH1.



Mar 03, 2012 at 07:57 AM
j.liam
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p.1 #20 · CV vs CZ


One other characteristic of the Leica is that for subjects at infinity (I have a Leitaxed one), it demonstrates field curvature whereas the Z* 100 is perfectly flat. I think when Leica designed the 100, it designed it in such a way that it would complement rather than displace their 80 & 90. Look at the MFD of the 90 AA : 0.7m.


Mar 03, 2012 at 08:01 AM
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