p.3 #1 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Makten wrote:
Not if you like wide lenses, and particularly wide AND fast lenses. You even need a bulky 35/1.2 to get something equivalent to a tiny 50/1.8.
That still does'nt answer the other question I posted earlier, quote:
"Do you mean it could'nt handle native Sony wide lenses or it cant handle wide lenses period?
If its the latter I will be extremely supprised. If its the former though then surely the solution is very obvious...Use third party lenses and older manual focus lenses via E-mount adapters instead. You can even get an EF-E mount adapter so you can use the exact same lenses on your NEX and your 5D MkII"
So tell me, why cant the NEX-7 handle wide lenses?
I have a Sigma 14mm f3.5 (rectalinear, not fisheye), a Tokina 17mm f3.5 RMC and a Tamron SP 17mm f3.5..All FF lenses.
If I decide to get an NEX-7 I will obviously want to be able to use them all on it...If I do, exactly what problems might I encounter?.
As for your samples...They are far too small to tell anything meaningfull...
Makten wrote:
Funny, because people (including me) can obviously see a clear difference. So, they are meaningful.
As I said before, the only noticable differences between the samples of the first two subjects is their different exposures...At the size posted, it is impossible to tell anything else!
As for the samples of the third subject, I'm seeing no difference whatsover between them.
This is why I suggested he post 100% crops as well.
p.3 #2 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
denoir wrote:
[Ouch, yeah that sucks. I haven't had any problems with the M9 in that respect - including in -25°C up in Arvidsjaur.
My previous M8 that I owned a couple of years ago behaved the same, so I'm not even sure it's the batteries. Could be the circuitry that consumes too much current at low temperatures or something, but it doesn't make sense really.
That's the funny thing - on paper a NEX would be an almost ideal camera for you (except for the sensor size), but I still think you will hate it. It's the exact opposite in feel to a classic film camera. As far as image quality goes, it's OK. More than OK in fact. But it's design isn't for everyone - definitely not for me and I don't think for you either. But, hey, I may be completely wrong
I'm not really interested in "classic film camera" feel, but rather something that is small and convenient with decent user interface and buttons for things I need. Which the 5N actually has, as I exclusively use it in M mode. The only thing I miss is being able to get a partially magnified frame that you can move around, which would allow you to frame the image without going back to the non-magnified view. Sort of like a rangefinder patch.
I often find myself crouching to get the angles I want, so the tiltable LCD does actually make very much sense to me. But the tiltable EVF would of course be even better, so I'll probably get one of those.
p.3 #3 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Alf Beharie wrote:
That still does'nt answer the other question I posted earlier, quote:
"Do you mean it could'nt handle native Sony wide lenses or it cant handle wide lenses period?
If its the latter I will be extremely supprised. If its the former though then surely the solution is very obvious...Use third party lenses and older manual focus lenses via E-mount adapters instead. You can even get an EF-E mount adapter so you can use the exact same lenses on your NEX and your 5D MkII"
So tell me, why cant the NEX-7 handle wide lenses?
I have a Sigma 14mm f3.5 (rectalinear, not fisheye), a Tokina 17mm f3.5 RMC and a Tamron SP 17mm f3.5..All FF lenses.
If I decide to get an NEX-7 I will obviously want to be able to use them all on it...If I do, exactly what problems might I encounter?....Show more →
We are talking about different things. I'm not interested in large, slow wideangle zooms, which is the only thing that exists for APS-C cameras, and I'm definitely not interested in SLR wides for FF.
If you want to use non telecentric lenses, such as those for rangefinders, the NEX-7 sensor isn't optimized for them. I get smeared corners with the NEX-5N and the Summicron 28/2 while they are sharp on the M8. The NEX-7 is supposed to be even worse in that respect.
As I said before, the only noticable differences between the samples of the first two subjects is their different exposures...At the size posted, it is impossible to tell anything else!
As for the samples of the third subject, I'm seeing no difference whatsover between them.
This is why I suggested he post 100% crops as well.
Then speak for yourself. I can see a huge difference between the shots in example #2.
p.3 #5 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Alf Beharie wrote:
As I said before, the only noticable differences between the samples of the first two subjects is their different exposures...At the size posted, it is impossible to tell anything else!
As for the samples of the third subject, I'm seeing no difference whatsover between them.
This is why I suggested he post 100% crops as well.
I agree about shot 1. I see differences, but nothing meaningful, but if you can't see quite a large sharpness difference in shots 2, then you really need to visit your eye doctor!
On the other hand, some of these shutter speeds are really borderline, so perhaps we need tripod tests rather than crops.
p.3 #6 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
The 18 looks good on the nex. I can't go back to a heavy dslr - without an evf, can't use M lenses, mirror hang ups with some lenses, no articulated lcd, weigh 2x more, and cost 2x more.
p.3 #7 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Makten wrote:
We are talking about different things. I'm not interested in large, slow wideangle zooms, which is the only thing that exists for APS-C cameras, and I'm definitely not interested in SLR wides for FF.
If you want to use non telecentric lenses, such as those for rangefinders, the NEX-7 sensor isn't optimized for them. I get smeared corners with the NEX-5N and the Summicron 28/2 while they are sharp on the M8. The NEX-7 is supposed to be even worse in that respect.
So your saying the NEX-7 only has trouble handling rangefinder wides but it has no problem handling FF wides?...If so, that would make perfect sense because the registration distance of wide rangefinder lenses is much shorter than FF wides.
I'm guessing that your main priority is to to keep the NEX-7 as compact as possible by only using very compact lenses on it. I can understand the appeal of that thinking but I thought the point of this thread was whether it is possible to replace a large, heavy, bulky DSLR like the 5D MkII with the compact, lightweight and pocketable NEX-7...So the size of the lenses used should'nt really matter.
For example, if I had an NEX-7, I could leave by DSLR at home but I will still be able to use my excellent DSLR lenses on the NEX-7...This means I would'nt have to carry a huge camera bag with me everywhere to keep the DSLR and lenses in and instead all I would need to carry is a few Lowepro lenscases on my belt and the NEX can be kept in my pocket till needed. That would be luxury!
p.3 #8 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Thanks for sharing Philippe! Overall my take is that the 5D images are somewhat more pleasant and clean, not only in color but in particular in detailing. I did not expect that given the pixel advantage of the N7 and figuring these are tripod shots. Guess this is a situation (despite the excellent ZM18) when pixeldensity hits the optical limits (??).
Talking about shadows (and lifting them) this is the Achilles heel of the 5D2 - and where eg the 5N excels. I assume this goes for the N7 as well. But then again, in low light the 5D2 of 2008 will beat both NEXes on their fingers when ISO rises. But ETTR is not a good thing for the 5D2 in a challenging DR-situation if PP is part of the flow.
But most important (possibly) is that the N7 images are darn good - and that most people outside a forum like this are as likely to pick the N7 images on top of the 5D2's than the other way around. In fact, for #2 I bet the N7 would be picked more often due to colors... it's only us here
p.3 #9 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Alf Beharie wrote:
So your saying the NEX-7 only has trouble handling rangefinder wides but it has no problem handling FF wides?...If so, that would make perfect sense because the registration distance of wide rangefinder lenses is much shorter than FF wides.
I'm guessing that your main priority is to to keep the NEX-7 as compact as possible by only using very compact lenses on it. I can understand the appeal of that thinking but I thought the point of this thread was whether it is possible to replace a large, heavy, bulky DSLR like the 5D MkII with the compact, lightweight and pocketable NEX-7...So the size of the lenses used should'nt really matter.
For example, if I had an NEX-7, I could leave by DSLR at home but I will still be able to use my excellent DSLR lenses on the NEX-7...This means I would'nt have to carry a huge camera bag with me everywhere to keep the DSLR and lenses in and instead all I would need to carry is a few Lowepro lenscases on my belt and the NEX can be kept in my pocket till needed. That would be luxury!...Show more →
The logic here escapes me. First, "FF" in the first paragraph needs to be replaced with "SLR" (rangefinder lenses are FF also!), as in large retrofocus lenses! Second, once you add the thick adapter to the long retrofocus SLR wides, one of the huge advantages of the thin NEX body is negated. The size of the lenses certainly do matter and become the limiting factor. A "compact, lightweight and pocketable NEX-7" body that becomes a long, large device (thereby no longer holding that much advantage over a compact DSLR) when thick adapters and large retrofocus lenses are mounted sort of defeats the whole purpose, no? So you are going to carry the same lenses, add some thick adapters and simply replace the DSLR body with the NEX-7...in the grand scheme of your bag size and weight, that's not going to gain you too much.
p.3 #10 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Tariq Gibran wrote:
The logic here escapes me. First, "FF" in the first paragraph needs to be replaced with "SLR" (rangefinder lenses are FF also!), as in large retrofocus lenses! Second, once you add the thick adapter to the long retrofocus SLR wides, one of the huge advantages of the thin NEX body is negated. The size of the lenses certainly do matter and become the limiting factor. A "compact, lightweight and pocketable NEX-7" body that becomes a long, large device (thereby no longer holding that much advantage over a compact DSLR) when thick adapters and large retrofocus lenses are mounted sort of defeats the whole purpose, no? So you are going to carry the same lenses, add some thick adapters and simply replace the DSLR body with the NEX-7...in the grand scheme of your bag size and weight, that's not going to gain you too much....Show more →
I think that's pretty much right, if a bit of an overstatement. A NEX with an adapter is still noticeably smaller than a DSLR -- and still thinner overall as I observe that the grip on the 5D/5D2 extend well beyond the lens mount.
I was ready to cancel my NEX-7 order based on its problems with rangefinder lenses. But then I got a noticed from Amazon that mine would be shipped next week, then minuted later they told me it was shipped. I'll get it Monday. Not sure if I'll keep it. Half the lenses I want to use on it are rangefinder lenses, the other half would probably be used with a tilt adapter. (which is the other capability you can get with SLR lenses if you accept their size). The samples shown here look fine here -- philber suggests the IQ is in favor of the NEX-7. Even without the file in hand, you can see they are comparable (colors a bit different, but that than can be pretty much fixed in conversion with a good profile if you prefer the 5D2 look). I'll probably just get a 5N and be done with it until Sony decides give us a NEX-7N.
p.3 #11 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Lotusm50 wrote:
I think that's pretty much right, if a bit of an overstatement. A NEX with an adapter is still noticeably smaller than a DSLR -- and still thinner overall as I observe that the grip on the 5D/5D2 extend well beyond the lens mount.
I was ready to cancel my NEX-7 order based on its problems with rangefinder lenses. But then I got a noticed from Amazon that mine would be shipped next week, then minuted later they told me it was shipped. I'll get it Monday. Not sure if I'll keep it. Half the lenses I want to use on it are rangefinder lenses, the other half would probably be used with a tilt adapter. (which is the other capability you can get with SLR lenses if you accept their size). The samples shown here look fine here -- philber suggests the IQ is in favor of the NEX-7. Even without the file in hand, you can see they are comparable (colors a bit different, but that than can be pretty much fixed in conversion with a good profile if you prefer the 5D2 look). I'll probably just get a 5N and be done with it until Sony decides give us a NEX-7N.
p.3 #12 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Makten wrote:
If you want to use non telecentric lenses, such as those for rangefinders, the NEX-7 sensor isn't optimized for them. I get smeared corners with the NEX-5N and the Summicron 28/2 while they are sharp on the M8. The NEX-7 is supposed to be even worse in that respect.
Martin - if it ends up you're not satisfied with the 5N, keep an eye on the Ricoh GXR with M mount. I think it's about the only non-Leica mirrorless solution at the moment that will work well with most rangefinder wides that are problematic on the NEX cameras. The compromise with the Ricoh though is lower resolution and somewhat noisy performance at ISO 1600 and higher, and for you, no tilt LCD, though the not-as-good-as-the-Sony EVF does tilt. I find I can tweak the GXR files with very similar post production to what I use for the M9. Perhaps it will also be similar to M8 files. As with all of the current mirrorless cameras, the GXR has its share of quirks that keep it from being my perfect camera, but after having used a 5N for nearly a month, I do find it a more enjoyable platform for most walkabout situations. I recently acquired a 28 Cron and will give it a spin on the GXR soon and will likely add some observations to the 'no love for GXR' thread.
As for the 5N, there was a very informative and active thread until a month or so ago about finding the best wide angle lenses for it, which you can read here: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1063956
The OP of that thread eventually decided on the 28 Cron, and perhaps the ZM18, IIRC. Your choice of the CV15 is an excellent one for the 5N. I was extremely happy with the combination, as I am with it on the GXR. The only thing I didn't like with the 5N combo, was that even with the expensive Novoflex adapter, the lens focused past infinity, meaning it was difficult to just set focus by the distance scale, though since the lens has so much depth of field, it wasn't as problematic as longer lenses. In this respect the GXR is also better, with accurate infinity at the lens's infinity hard stop.
Philippe, sorry to pull this off topic. I was wondering whether you're still looking for the Leica 24 Elmar? I was in Munich again last week and the Leica Store there still has this lens in stock... I tried it on the M9 and it was excellent. I wonder how well the NEX-7 will work with it?
p.3 #13 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Tariq Gibran wrote:
So you are going to carry the same lenses, add some thick adapters and simply replace the DSLR body with the NEX-7...in the grand scheme of your bag size and weight, that's not going to gain you too much.
Sorry, but this is simply not true. I am doing exactly that and my bag
is much, much smaller and lighter than before when 5D II was in it.
NEX-5N with Leica 28 R is very small, light and a joy to handle and use
comparing to the same lens mounted on 5D II.
p.3 #14 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
I think I totally get what Tariq is saying. And I think he is right but I also think Snowboarder and Lotus are right.
Sometimes, its really great to just take a NEX and an EMount lens in my small A&A bag if I want to be discrete.
It's also great to take a NEX in a bigger DSLR bag and fit an extra lens or two in the bag because now I don't have a huge FF camera + big batteries in there. I can also sort of get away with a lighter tripod since the whole system weighs a lot less. When I have my NEX-7 and NEX-C3 in the bigger bag, I still have room for another lens than with my A850.
I think that's the beauty of the NEX, it's flexible in that way over MFT. When I used MFT, I thought I was giving up a lot of IQ leaving the big DSLR at home and the crop factor screwed things up even more. With a 5N or NEX-7, you're almost at FF quality in terms of dynamic range and tonality. And to be honest, the files out of my NEX-7 look just as good if not better than my A850.
The biggest weakness though, for NEX, adapter or not 5N or 7 or not, there just aren't fantastic wide angle solutions for it like a Leica 19mm or Zeiss 21mm. There are OK APS-C lenses but they don't have any magic.
p.3 #15 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
snowboarder wrote:
Sorry, but this is simply not true. I am doing exactly that and my bag
is much, much smaller and lighter than before when 5D II was in it.
NEX-5N with Leica 28 R is very small, light and a joy to handle and use
comparing to the same lens mounted on 5D II.
p.3 #16 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Alf Beharie wrote:
So your saying the NEX-7 only has trouble handling rangefinder wides but it has no problem handling FF wides?...If so, that would make perfect sense because the registration distance of wide rangefinder lenses is much shorter than FF wides.
I'm guessing that your main priority is to to keep the NEX-7 as compact as possible by only using very compact lenses on it. I can understand the appeal of that thinking but I thought the point of this thread was whether it is possible to replace a large, heavy, bulky DSLR like the 5D MkII with the compact, lightweight and pocketable NEX-7...So the size of the lenses used should'nt really matter.
For example, if I had an NEX-7, I could leave by DSLR at home but I will still be able to use my excellent DSLR lenses on the NEX-7...This means I would'nt have to carry a huge camera bag with me everywhere to keep the DSLR and lenses in and instead all I would need to carry is a few Lowepro lenscases on my belt and the NEX can be kept in my pocket till needed. That would be luxury!...Show more →
You're absolutely right, but I don't want those bulky lenses on a smallish body. I want both to be small! And then I'm restricted to RF lenses.
I also don't really care about what's in the bag, but rather what I carry around my neck. It's all about unobtrusiveness, small size and low weight when I walk around for hours, perhaps not even using the camera but still wanting it to be ready to use.
p.3 #17 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
FlyPenFly wrote:
I think I totally get what Tariq is saying. And I think he is right but I also think Snowboarder and Lotus are right.
Sometimes, its really great to just take a NEX and an EMount lens in my small A&A bag if I want to be discrete.
It's also great to take a NEX in a bigger DSLR bag and fit an extra lens or two in the bag because now I don't have a huge FF camera + big batteries in there. I can also sort of get away with a lighter tripod since the whole system weighs a lot less. When I have my NEX-7 and NEX-C3 in the bigger bag, I still have room for another lens than with my A850.
I think that's the beauty of the NEX, it's flexible in that way over MFT. When I used MFT, I thought I was giving up a lot of IQ leaving the big DSLR at home and the crop factor screwed things up even more. With a 5N or NEX-7, you're almost at FF quality in terms of dynamic range and tonality. And to be honest, the files out of my NEX-7 look just as good if not better than my A850.
The biggest weakness though, for NEX, adapter or not 5N or 7 or not, there just aren't fantastic wide angle solutions for it like a Leica 19mm or Zeiss 21mm. There are OK APS-C lenses but they don't have any magic....Show more →
Almost but not quite right. Choose your favorite lens, dump it into Photoshop and stitch. Very painless and not at all time-consuming. Keeps all the magic of your favorite lens.
p.3 #18 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Alf Beharie wrote
As for your samples...They are far too small to tell anything meaningfull...
Makten wrote:
Funny, because people (including me) can obviously see a clear difference. So, they are meaningful.
--------------
I've just bought an NEX-5N, and for me the degradation of IQ is worth it. I just hate large cameras.
Alf Beharie wrote:
As I said before, the only noticable differences between the samples of the first two subjects is their different exposures...At the size posted, it is impossible to tell anything else!
As for the samples of the third subject, I'm seeing no difference whatsover between them.
This is why I suggested he post 100% crops as well.
Makten wrote:
Then speak for yourself. I can see a huge difference between the shots in example #2.
I love big cameras! You can give me yours if you like Mak. For me in those side by side shots the Nex looked so bad it just spoiled the shots! The 5D images made me go: Oooo, beautiful photography! The Nex ones made me go: Oh great, another snapshot from someone's vacation... next will be his kids standing in a row? The 5D ones have clearly resolved and distinct colors that really added depth to the shots. The Nex ones made mush of the colors and my eyes actually had difficulties distinguishing detail which made them look flat, confused, and weirdly saturated or overly saturated? The 5D shots delivered details that made me want to spend time looking at them. The Nex samples just kinda presented a dull scene fully consumed in a glance.
But anyway, I think where there is something to compare to side-by-side so to speak, then the importance of 100% crops is radically reduced. And really this thread and the comparisons in it seem to be about the overall resulting images and not specifically sharpness, micro-contrast, or CA which is where 100% crops are so useful.
p.3 #19 · Battle of the walkabouts: NEX 7 faces off with 5D II....
Bifurcator wrote:
I love big cameras! You can give me yours if you like Mak. For me in those side by side shots the Nex looked so bad it just spoiled the shots! The 5D images made me go: Oooo, beautiful photography! The Nex ones made me go: Oh great, another snapshot from someone's vacation... next will be his kids standing in a row? The 5D ones have clearly resolved and distinct colors that really added depth to the shots. The Nex ones made mush of the colors and my eyes actually had difficulties distinguishing detail which made them look flat, confused, and weirdly saturated or overly saturated? The 5D shots delivered details that made me want to spend time looking at them. The Nex samples just kinda presented a dull scene fully consumed in a glance.
But anyway, I think where there is something to compare to side-by-side so to speak, then the importance of 100% crops is radically reduced. And really this thread and the comparisons in it seem to be about the overall resulting images and not sharpness, micro-contrast, or CA which is where 100% crops are so useful. ...Show more →
) the NEX!
