fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1              3              5       6       end
  

Archive 2012 · Digital back for 35mm cameras

  
 
AhamB
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #1 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


The cost of the sensor wouldn't be the problem, I think. It's the engineering challenge to make it work properly/reliably and to make it work with the vital parts of the camera to which there is no electronic connection.


Feb 24, 2012 at 11:38 AM
mightaswell
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #2 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


There is only one potential connection required, between the shutter button and the sensor. And even that isn't an absolute certainty. For example, optical flash triggering is a 100% reactive mechanism, and works fine. There could just be some mechanism on the digiback that detects a 'shutter event', perhaps a mirror flipping up or the first bit of shutter movement. Obviously you would just set ISO on the digiback, and then set the ISO on the camera body as you would normally.

But even then, the backs would need to be camera specific. Starting with AE-1's and MX's and FM2's...as someone else pointed out, limited opportunity for economies of scale.




Feb 24, 2012 at 01:00 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


Bifurcator wrote:
I wanna know how they intend to initiate the capture tho.


Good question. The only signal most 35mm film cameras can give that they are about to shoot would be the flash contacts, so a cable from the sync to back would probably be the best solution. This is how primitive MFDB setups work. The accuracy and timing of the sync signal would be crucial though. This of course does not address the lack of necessary tolerances in placing the sensor the correct distance from the lens mount. Probably each and every camera you would want to make such a change to would have to be sent in for adjustment, possibly repeatedly.



Feb 24, 2012 at 01:01 PM
briantho
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


This is going to be a little off-topic... I see in the replies in this thread that most people never tend to think out-of-the-box. I see this every day in my line of work as an IT-architect.

Very few people are capable of lateral thinking, and are unfamiliar to the concept of innovation. People tend to see only existing complexities, dismissing new ideas right of the bat, without second thought.

Please take this critisism with a grain of salt I'm not talking about you...

So how about some lateral thinking...

Digital backs would NOT need to be camera specific. Why? How? Because they could be produced as a MODULAR system.

The only two expensive parts of the construction, the LCD-screen and the sensor, would simply be modules that you attach to any one of a number of "dumb" cheap camera-specific backs.

The LCD module could even be completely removable from the back, for any-angle viewing of your choice, simply connected by a small wire to a jack on the dumb back. In fact, if companies were a little more innovative, you wouldn't need another LCD-screen. You already have your smart phone, right?

So you would buy a standard kit for say Nikon F3 containing a sensor, an LCD, and that specific back. You could then add an extra "dumb" back for your Canon EOS 1v, and one more for your nice Contax N1.



Feb 24, 2012 at 02:15 PM
sjms
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #5 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


synchronization?


Feb 24, 2012 at 02:23 PM
briantho
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


sjms wrote:
synchronization?


Think! Innovate!



Feb 24, 2012 at 02:24 PM
ryanpfleger
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #7 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


Cool idea! I would definately shoot with it every time I was riding shotgun on my Conestoga wagon pulled by a motorcycle!

Seriously though, the idea doesn't do much for me, but perhaps some people feel otherwise. If I were going for the nostalgic factor, I think I'd just shoot film.



Feb 24, 2012 at 02:32 PM
telyt
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


briantho wrote:
So how about some lateral thinking...

Digital backs would NOT need to be camera specific. Why? How? Because they could be produced as a MODULAR system.


Can you explain why this degree of modularity is not in production yet? It would seem that if it were practical we'd have seen this already instead of the current standard practice of replacing entire cameras when a new sensor is developed.



Feb 24, 2012 at 02:36 PM
briantho
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #9 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


Yes that's simple... the company makes more $$$ making you buy a new body.


Feb 24, 2012 at 02:45 PM
ryanpfleger
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


telyt wrote:
Can you explain why this degree of modularity is not in production yet? It would seem that if it were practical we'd have seen this already instead of the current standard practice of replacing entire cameras when a new sensor is developed.


Because its bad business to sell consumers an $800 sensor back, when you can sell them a $3000 camera body?



Feb 24, 2012 at 02:47 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


I can't think of many film cameras which cost $2200, so you are probably not comparing like types of cameras there.

There are all kinds of companies which would be capable of making a sensor back but not a full camera, not to speak of lenses. That is the primary reason, not the business proposal.

Brian, vaguely insulting people doesn't help you. Your claim that we are not thinking outside of the box is just not true. There are all kinds of ways to get something up and running, but while you are busy pretending to think outside the box, you are ignoring all the real problems, even though they have been repeatedly listed here.

The main one is a question of tolerances. The old film bodies and film lenses were made to looser tolerances, partly because 35mm film is relatively low resolution (apart from a few specialty films), partly because film actually has depth, unlike painfully flat sensors, and so light focused at various depths can actually still look sharp, and partly because the whole system, meaning lenses, mounts, and camera bodies, is just not set up accurately enough to yield satisfying results.

In the end only Leica really gave it a proper shot (with Kodak making their own try, based on reworked Nikon and Canon film cameras), and Leica arguably uses the tightest tolerances in the whole industry. For most cameras, especially older nice camera like the Nikon F, Pentax Spotmatic, and so on, the whole chain of equipment would need to go in for an expensive tuneup, to have the photos properly focus in the sensor plane. Lenses would have to be centered, the mount distances tuned, and they would have to be perfectly perpendicular to avoid having only a line in focus, and the rest more or less blurry. The mounts would have to be set on the cameras incredibly accurately, and the film rails would have to be a very exact distance from the mount. The prisms would have to be tuned, as would the focus screens, to allow them to be used properly for focusing.

This is even ignoring the fact that most lenses would not be up to the task. The simple act of focusing the different wavelengths at the same place was sloppier in the film days than required for digital, which is one reason why so many lenses had to be redesigned for digital.

All of this tuning would cost a pretty penny, especially when you consider that the vast majority of these bodies are probably missing the necessary tuning points, and so the castings would have to be modified, shims inserted, and so on, something which would have to be designed and done individually for each type of film body, common sensor module or not. There are not likely more than a half-dozen bodies with sufficient accuracy to even make it feasible, like the late Leicas, Contax cameras, certain high-end Nikons (F6...), and so on.

Then there is the accuracy of the sync signal. This is a real issue in certain medium format cameras, and they do sometimes have to be sent back for tuning, or even non-reversible changes, just to make it work correctly. The whole sync thing is so hard that Hasselblad actually designed backs for their V cameras which are triggered mechanically, just like a film back, and even then, it doesn't work at all sync speeds on all cameras.

And who would do this work? Canon, Nikon, Leica, Contax and so on certainly not! They have other things to do. And the imaginary sensor company couldn't possibly take on all this work.

We haven't even yet talked about how satisfying the end result would be. Setting ISO on the back would have to be matched by setting ISO on the camera. The high shutter speeds would probably be off-limits for tolerance reasons. Auto-bracketing, metering (film camera metering often reflects light off the film and measures it afterwards, which doesn't work with sensors since they reflect light very differently), Auto-ISO, and many, many more functions would be MIA. In the end you would probably have a truncated shutter speed range, aperture, double ISO-setting camera with no other features. This would only be attractive in a Frankenstein kind of way to the vast majority of photographers, especially considering that since the sensor is often one of the most expensive components, you wouldn't even save much money. Oh, and the sensor would probably not be FF due to cost and practical considerations, and the battery required would add to the bulk and weight of the camera, making the whole thing less attractive. Did you see the Kodak/Nikon cameras Bif posted?

I probably missed another dozen concerns, and while some of the issues I listed may not exist in reality, and others may be solvable, every one of them would have to be examined and dealt with.

So while this is all a vaguely interesting Gedankenexperiment, it is not a good basis upon which to insult people when you haven't even done a rudimentary amount of proper thinking about the real problems. Had you put this up as a fun thread, rather than pretending to be doing serious thinking about it, and had you had a good sense of humour about some of the replies, then this could have been fun, but instead it is not.



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:17 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #12 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


briantho wrote:
Yes that's simple... the company makes more $$$ making you buy a new body.


You are not even talking about the same companies, are you? Or do you mean that these cartridge sensors should be made by Nikon, Canon, et al?



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:23 PM
ZoneV
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


Yes, modularity would be possible. But it could be problematic to change the sensor unit from one camera-back to the other because of small tolerances.

I work at a camera manufacturers R&D department (not electronics).
Sensor prices for 24x36mm sensors are quite high for lower numbers - and I think with such a back you will not sell several thousand pieces a year. So I suppose such a back would cost more than US$ 3000 - would you still buy it?

Normal DSLR cameras have a ~2 mm filter package in front of the sensor. This could probably placed in front of the shutter (not good for AA filter part) like in my modular DSLR filter system. Probably better without AA filter - you have no problem with moire in your pictures?

Normal CCD sensors are pretty thick - this is a reason why such thing like Silicon Film is even much more unlikely to happen.
You need a board behind the sensor, probably additional some metal plate for thermal connection of the sensor. Ahm, connection to what? Connection to metal body would be good. Better no liveview.
Probably the thickness (suppose >10mm) of the back is a problem for the user - no good viewfinder distance. Could be solved with viewfinder attachments.

Now you need the main electronics near the sensor, not on a long cable. Probably under the camera. Battery and cardslot. Display probably only on this part - would you buy a >2000 USD camera with 2" display? Or should the back be even thicker and display behind sensor - add ~ 7 mm.

How to synchronize the digital part?
Does flash x-contact gives a signal with times shorter x-sync? I think on my Contax not. I think there is a kind of trigger delay between telling the sensor to take the picture, and it actually doing so. I think this is some milliseconds. Not sure about that. That would make shorter exposure times most likely unusable. I suppose this waiting sensor and electronics will drain the battery.

Do you like to clean your sensor? With such a back you should like to clean it, and both sides of the infrared cut filter too. It seems likely that old film cameras have more wear debris than DSLR cameras.

The manufacturer would most likely take no warranty for correct distance and parallelism between camera-mount & sensor and mount to screen. The user has to use thin shims to correct this. Users better not use this camera like a DSLR, cause I doubt the old cameras are made to last 200.000 shutter cycles - would be 5.500 rolls of film. I read that better film cameras have 50.000.

My Contax 159MM has a red LED if I remember right, for a data back synchronization, so I vote for that camera for the first digital back ;-)
No, better not, used Zeiss lens prices are high enough!

I think it is easier and more economic to make a complete new DSLR camera without AF.




Feb 24, 2012 at 03:31 PM
telyt
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


ryanpfleger wrote:
Because its bad business to sell consumers an $800 sensor back, when you can sell them a $3000 camera body?


It's bad business to require a consumer to buy an entire car if all he needs is a new tire. There's a reason sensors aren't interchangeable and it's not corporate greed. Replacing the sensor is more like replacing the car's frame than its tire.

Edited on Feb 24, 2012 at 03:50 PM · View previous versions



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:35 PM
panos.v
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #15 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


carstenw wrote:
I can't think of many film cameras which cost $2200, so you are probably not comparing like types of cameras there.


The EOS 1V retailed for more than $2000 when new. If anyone was to make a drop-in sensor as suggested and Canon sold you a body, you can be certain that regardless of how much the sensor cartridge cost, Canon would then charge you $2000 for the body.



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:38 PM
panos.v
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #16 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


ZoneV pretty much said it all. This "modular" approach works very well with larger format cameras though, as they were already built to have replaceable film backs. There are digital backs and adapters for pretty much every medium/large format system that has a removable film back.

Edited on Feb 24, 2012 at 03:46 PM · View previous versions



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:43 PM
briantho
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #17 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


I'm not pretending anything. I simply proposed a solution to ONE of the problems which I haven't seen anyone think of before.
Sorry you feel insulted, but your post perfectly demonstrate the point I tried to make, listing problems and no solutions, and so you dismiss the idea. But hey... digital backs are not a new idea. It works on MF, so why not 35mm?
I suggested a solution to what people thought was one of the biggest reasons such backs don't exist, the variation of 35mm camera designs.

Abot sync... how about a simple on switch that activates the sensor on the back? The active sensor exposure time is irrelevant since the shutter is closed, and exposure is controlled by the camera. Then once the shutter closes, the sensor senses exposure is over and is inactivated.



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:46 PM
panos.v
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #18 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


briantho wrote:
About sync... how about a simple on switch that activates the sensor on the back? The active sensor exposure time is irrelevant since the shutter is closed, and exposure is controlled by the camera. Then once the shutter closes, the sensor senses exposure is over and is inactivated.


How does that "switch" then know when to switch on? You manually switch it on before each shot? Right...that'll be popular.

You could in theory use an optical trigger, when the shutter opens it triggers the sensor but at high shutter speeds that can still cause issues.

The idea you propose is old. I'm pretty sure a lot more people with a lot more knowledge than we do on digital sensor design have looked at it and found that it is neither economical nor practical.



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:49 PM
Jewced
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #19 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


I don't really understand the attraction to a digital back. For one, you lose all the advantages of shooting a film camera. You lose the pleasure of shooting film. Additionally, many film cameras have bodies that would be considered "archaic". Modern digital cameras have much more advanced bodies and are designed to produce digital images. Using a film body to make digital images is using the wrong tool for the job. I can understand the "nostalgia" aspect of the attraction; it makes sense that one may like shooting old bodies and the glass that goes with them. But if that's the case, why not just shoot film?


Feb 24, 2012 at 03:50 PM
panos.v
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #20 · Digital back for 35mm cameras


Oh, and once you solve the issue of where and how to attach the sensor, you need to figure out where to put everything else, like LCD, buttons for the sensor settings, etc. So your drop-in cartridge is not really drop-in, you do have to replace the rear door completely which then means you are in a whole world of adapters to fit different cameras. And you are also in a whole world of pain regarding sensor alignment and tolerance. Is it you that focused wrong, the lens that front focused, the sensor that was not aligned or your nose that pushed the not-so-rigid-rear-sensor-module too much?

These can all be solved if you throw money at them but we are well beyond an economical solution compared to designing a dSLR. At least with today's technology.


Edited on Feb 24, 2012 at 03:54 PM · View previous versions



Feb 24, 2012 at 03:52 PM
1              3              5       6       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1              3              5       6       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account