artd wrote:
I suppose I'm a no-frills kinda guy :shrug:
I'm not an expert in mass manufacturing, so I really won't pretend to have the knowledge necessary to go into an analysis of how extra features influence product costs (though if you do, I'm happen to learn). I do know that if I want to use K-mount lenses with their full functionality in combination with a top notch sensor then the K0-1 is the cheapest game in town. Some people might expect more, and that's fine. Personally, if I wanted more, then I would be looking at a K-5. But since I already have a DSLR system I don't feel I need another. Just a simple little camera to mount my favorite old Pentax glass on.
i don't know much about mass manufacturing electronic devices, but my job requires me to periodically design electronic devices and either build them myself or send the design to an electronics shop to build to my specs. i can tell you that for low volume production the price difference between articulated lcds and non-articulated lcds is mostly in the molded plastic not the electronics and is minuscule (you can see why if you look at tear downs of both types of cameras). the cost of adding an accessory port is mostly in the cost of the connector (which is also minuscule).
in any event, i'm happy for you if this satisfies your needs completely (yet for some reason you previously bought a NEX?). it sounds to me like you're just defending pentax out of brand loyalty though. just because it's the only game in town for autofocus pentax lenses doesn't mean they couldn't have easily done better. by the general response to the camera it's pretty easy to see that there were a lot of people waiting around really wanting to buy a pentax mirrorless that are much less satisfied by this effort. i personally would much rather get a used k-x than this if i liked pentax autofocus. i don't though, i'd rather shoot their autofocus lenses in manual focus mode on the NEX or a pentax, canon, or sony dslr than use pentax autofocus.
I don't get the "cheap" characterization of the K-01. While it had a slightly difference set of attributes, it is essentially an APS-C autofocus (primary) manual focus capable (secondary) digital compact camera.
Like a NEX-5N.
The NEX-5N is $150 - $200 less than the K-01, no?
That almost pays for an EVF, which the K-01 doesn't offer as a feature. Probably the K-01 is only "cheap" relative to a comparable DSLR from Pentax but that doesn't mean it is priced cheaply.
The price delta certainly is worth it if your primary objective is to run compatible Pentax auto focus lenses, in auto-focus mode, since there's no other compact that will do that. But to mount manual focus lenses? Then it isn't price competitive.
Back to picking on Newson (or more appropriately, the company's decision to use Newson), unless they already have more Newsonified camera products in the pipeline, my bet would be the K-01 will be the first and last commission he receives from Pentax.
The look may not be all his fault. Rumours persist that Newson wanted to design something more svelt but was handed a big rectangular block of modelling clay and told he could make it no thinner than what he was given due to the company's choice of mounts and therefore back focal length. Internally during the conceptual phase the yellow version was labelled "I can't believe it isn't a pound of butter".
Just your wish. AF in that thing will be at best as fast and reliable as one in X-Pro 1. Those lens were made for certain type of AF and you cant just "switch" to another system and expect it to work as good as with dSLR.
michaelwatkins wrote:
I don't get the "cheap" characterization of the K-01. While it had a slightly difference set of attributes, it is essentially an APS-C autofocus (primary) manual focus capable (secondary) digital compact camera.
Like a NEX-5N.
The NEX-5N is $150 - $200 less than the K-01, no?
That almost pays for an EVF, which the K-01 doesn't offer as a feature. Probably the K-01 is only "cheap" relative to a comparable DSLR from Pentax but that doesn't mean it is priced cheaply.
The price delta certainly is worth it if your primary objective is to run compatible Pentax auto focus lenses, in auto-focus mode, since there's no other compact that will do that. But to mount manual focus lenses? Then it isn't price competitive.
Back to picking on Newson (or more appropriately, the company's decision to use Newson), unless they already have more Newsonified camera products in the pipeline, my bet would be the K-01 will be the first and last commission he receives from Pentax.
The look may not be all his fault. Rumours persist that Newson wanted to design something more svelt but was handed a big rectangular block of modelling clay and told he could make it no thinner than what he was given due to the company's choice of mounts and therefore back focal length. Internally during the conceptual phase the yellow version was labelled "I can't believe it isn't a pound of butter".
Probably quite true about that design, but it feels like if someone wanted to be different "at all cost". I think camera can look different and nice in same time even without this. From recent, SD-1 is nice, back in time, for example Contax N1.
sebboh wrote:
in any event, i'm happy for you if this satisfies your needs completely (yet for some reason you previously bought a NEX?). it sounds to me like you're just defending pentax out of brand loyalty though. just because it's the only game in town for autofocus pentax lenses doesn't mean they couldn't have easily done better. by the general response to the camera it's pretty easy to see that there were a lot of people waiting around really wanting to buy a pentax mirrorless that are much less satisfied by this effort. i personally would much rather get a used k-x than this if i liked pentax autofocus. i don't though, i'd rather shoot their autofocus lenses in manual focus mode on the NEX or a pentax, canon, or sony dslr than use pentax autofocus....Show more →
I have owned five different brands of cameras so I have not a clue how that equates to "brand loyalty." (Technically six I suppose if you count the Minolta film SLR I got from my dad, but I never used it much).
I never said it satisfies my needs completely. As a matter of fact, no single camera satisifies my needs completely, that's why I own multiple cameras. Let me be clear, if I didn't own any other cameras, I would not be looking at the K-01 as my sole camera of choice for daily use. But for casual shooting, and heading out with a collection of small primes, it suits me.
Yes, I bought a NEX because it is a fantastic camera in a tiny package and lets me use all kinds of lenses and I can take it with me wherever I go. And I will keep the NEX because of that...it is still my go-to camera when I want something really small. But that's exactly why I am not upset that the K-01 is not another new mount super tiny mirrorless system...I already have one of those. It may not be a slim mirrorless but I like the simple boxy form factor, it makes it easy to slip into a bag (in fact a K-01 with the pancake looks to me a lot less awkward to stow away than a NEX with a lot of various lens combinations I've tried).
I don't mind using manual focus, I do it a lot. But sometimes I'm lazy and just want to use AF. Up until now that's been the NEX kit lens, which while fine, is kind of uninspiring. The NEX system doesn't have all that much in the way of native mount small prime lenses. The K-mount does, and the K-01 fills my desire for a realatively compact inexpensive body on which to mount those. It's that simple.
kosmoskatten wrote:
artd: I am glad you like the concept. For most people a camera that you cannot cradle comfortably for handheld shooting with face/body brace will render a lot of "just out of" focus images and worse low speed hand holding limits than the regular dSLR.
My hit rate went down before I got an EVF for my mirrorless cameras. And I am quite a seasoned photographer and I have done field archery. The K-01 for portraits with a fast lens? No thank you.
To me, the K-01 is more a concept than a camera. If they omitted ergonomic aspects in favor of looks, then Pentax did a poor choice.
Surely cost was not the main issue. I think Marque Nuisance went for a clean look, shaving off the ergonomics in the process.
Tough love for Pentax from me, but still love. ...Show more →
I think it's pretty clear given your shooting style the camera is not well sutied to you, and that's totally ok. But I will say that for me this would be a case of "use the right tool for the job" ... i.e. when I shoot portraits I don't use any mirrorless camera, I use a DSLR. But for general casual shooting (my intended use for the K-01), I've never myself run into an issue handholding away from my body.
Again, if I was forced to live with just one single camera to "do it all" it would not be a K-01.
artd wrote:
I have owned five different brands of cameras so I have not a clue how that equates to "brand loyalty." (Technically six I suppose if you count the Minolta film SLR I got from my dad, but I never used it much).
I never said it satisfies my needs completely. As a matter of fact, no single camera satisifies my needs completely, that's why I own multiple cameras. Let me be clear, if I didn't own any other cameras, I would not be looking at the K-01 as my sole camera of choice for daily use. But for casual shooting, and heading out with a collection of small primes, it suits me.
Yes, I bought a NEX because it is a fantastic camera in a tiny package and lets me use all kinds of lenses and I can take it with me wherever I go. And I will keep the NEX because of that...it is still my go-to camera when I want something really small. But that's exactly why I am not upset that the K-01 is not another new mount super tiny mirrorless system...I already have one of those. It may not be a slim mirrorless but I like the simple boxy form factor, it makes it easy to slip into a bag (in fact a K-01 with the pancake looks to me a lot less awkward to stow away than a NEX with a lot of various lens combinations I've tried).
I don't mind using manual focus, I do it a lot. But sometimes I'm lazy and just want to use AF. Up until now that's been the NEX kit lens, which while fine, is kind of uninspiring. The NEX system doesn't have all that much in the way of native mount small prime lenses. The K-mount does, and the K-01 fills my desire for a realatively compact inexpensive body on which to mount those. It's that simple....Show more →
i guess i just don't understand where your coming from. wouldn't it be nice to have only one camera that costs less, takes up less space and does all those things that your current 3 cameras do just well as the three (NEX, K-01, dslr)? pentax could have made such a camera instead of the K-01. instead they made something that is only of use to people that already have 2 cameras one of which is a pentax dslr. i still can't think of a situation where i would choose the K-01 over a K-5 or NEX though. every single instance that i have ever shot in i would prefer one of those over a camera like the K-01.
sebboh wrote:
i guess i just don't understand where your coming from. wouldn't it be nice to have only one camera that costs less, takes up less space and does all those things that your current 3 cameras do just well as the three (NEX, K-01, dslr)? pentax could have made such a camera instead of the K-01. instead they made something that is only of use to people that already have 2 cameras one of which is a pentax dslr. i still can't think of a situation where i would choose the K-01 over a K-5 or NEX though. every single instance that i have ever shot in i would prefer one of those over a camera like the K-01....Show more →
Sure. It would also be nice to have a pickup truck that could handle as well as a sports car and get the same kind of gas mileage as a compact car
First off, I don't see how any mirrorless camera is going to replace my DSLR anytime in the near future. Not interested in that.
Second, Pentax could not have made a camera as small as a NEX while keeping the ability to mount K lenses without an adapter. A new system with an adapter for K-mount would add bulk and cost. Not interested in that. And if since I already own a NEX and several adapters for it I would need to buy new adapters if I were to switch systems again to this hypothetical Pentax with a new mount. Not interested in doing that either.
artd wrote:
Sure. It would also be nice to have a pickup truck that could handle as well as a sports car and get the same kind of gas mileage as a compact car
First off, I don't see how any mirrorless camera is going to replace my DSLR anytime in the near future. Not interested in that.
seems pretty easy to do to me, the NEX-7 is almost there. but i guess i don't need to have it replace a pro dslr for it to be perfect for me, just something like new d800 or 5DmkIII.
artd wrote:
Second, Pentax could not have made a camera as small as a NEX while keeping the ability to mount K lenses without an adapter. A new system with an adapter for K-mount would add bulk and cost. Not interested in that. And if since I already own a NEX and several adapters for it I would need to buy new adapters if I were to switch systems again to this hypothetical Pentax with a new mount. Not interested in doing that either.
that is exactly what i would have liked, pentax to make a better version of the NEX with a k-mount adapter. then i could sell the NEX and have a better camera. i don't really want a different camera for every lens mount i own. i'd be totally ok buying another round of $20 adapters for a camera system i really liked, especially since i could sell the NEX with only a little loss. incidentally, there really isn't any reason a k-mount adapter should add bulk versus the (already bulky) k-01.
if they did the body and adapter right, the result ought to be smaller because a fair amount of the bulk of the current body is to support the mount in the right position. the composite mount area might be a little bigger but the rest of the body smaller. as far as i am concerned, both the Q and the K-01 showed little regard for what a serious photographer wants and have lots of features to check off for the novice while totally missing the point of a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera, i.e. more compact than a conventional DSLR while delivery nearly the same image quality. the Q fails on image quality while the K-01 fails on the more compact.
given Pentax's current state, they have essentially no spare lens design capability needed to produce a new mount and that is a consequence of having very small and shrinking market share being unable to fund it. if they hadn't released the Q and the 645D and concentrated their efforts on the K mount and this hypothetical mirrorless mount, maybe they could have designed two or three good lenses for such a camera but now it's too late. expect more cuts to come to as Pentax Ricoh barely broke even in the all-important Christmas season when it needed to make lots to compensate for the lesser demand in the rest of the year. with Pentax Ricoh's tiny market share, they can't even make cameras for what some of their competitors can sell for a profit.
Herb...
sebboh wrote:
incidentally, there really isn't any reason a k-mount adapter should add bulk versus the (already bulky) k-01.
sebboh wrote:
seems pretty easy to do to me, the NEX-7 is almost there. but i guess i don't need to have it replace a pro dslr for it to be perfect for me, just something like new d800 or 5DmkIII.
Even if they make a FF NEX, I would be very skeptical about it being able to replace my DSLR for working photoshoots. Even if performance were equal, I would likely still stick with a DSLR just for the sake of handling...I can work much faster on a larger DSLR body with the way the controls are laid out, I appreciate a larger LCD and viewfinder, etc. Maybe I will change my mind someday. And I would love to have a FF NEX as a backup body to my DSLR.
artd wrote:
Second, Pentax could not have made a camera as small as a NEX while keeping the ability to mount K lenses without an adapter. A new system with an adapter for K-mount would add bulk and cost. Not interested in that. And if since I already own a NEX and several adapters for it I would need to buy new adapters if I were to switch systems again to this hypothetical Pentax with a new mount. Not interested in doing that either
sebboh wrote:
that is exactly what i would have liked, pentax to make a better version of the NEX with a k-mount adapter. then i could sell the NEX and have a better camera. i don't really want a different camera for every lens mount i own. i'd be totally ok buying another round of $20 adapters for a camera system i really liked, especially since i could sell the NEX with only a little loss....Show more →
Well, not everyone buys $20 adapters. Case in point: the most recent adapter I bought for my NEX was the Conurus EF adapter which cost $400. (And I certainly would be dubious about the possibilty of them coming out with a similar adapter for a new Pentax mount).
incidentally, there really isn't any reason a k-mount adapter should add bulk versus the (already bulky) k-01
Looking at Sony's NEX a-mount adapter as an example, I'm not so sure about that. Regardless, the thing I find nice about the K-01 body is that while it is not thin, I like the box-like shape (particularly with the pancake lens) because I find a more uniform rectangular shape less awkward to pack than into a non-camera specific bag, as opposed to something with a bulges coming off it. This looks like it will slip quite nicely into the side of pocket of my hiking backpack, whereas my NEX now kind of fits but not without some finagling. A NEX with that bulgding adapter off its bottom, even without a lens attached, would be problematic.
deadwolfbones wrote:
Why in the hell would you pay $400 for an adapter? :o
Two reasons.
1. (Metabones) To use exotic lenses (TS-E's, 65 MP-E).
2. (LA-EA2) To get Continuous AF performance comparable to a $1000+ DSLR in a mirrorless system.
The problematic ergonomics (also noted by others e.g. Steve Huff) are difficult to swallow. I think that this issue - alongside with the lack of any VF - will kill it for most customers, save from hard core Pentaxians.
Yakim Peled wrote:
The problematic ergonomics (also noted by others e.g. Steve Huff) are difficult to swallow. I think that this issue - alongside with the lack of any VF - will kill it for most customers, save from hard core Pentaxians.
