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Archive 2012 · Kodak to continue making film!

  
 
HerbChong
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p.4 #1 · Kodak to continue making film!


expect health care costs to continue to rise just for this reason but frankly, i expect the laws to change. credit card receipts in the US used to be required to be kept by the companies issuing the cards for all transactions. the law was changed to include "best available true facsimile" in absence of the physical receipt. American Express received all their receipts, scanned them, and then destroyed them. they had to certify to legal types that they had done their best to preserve the accuracy of their incoming receipts. Paypal would not exist if a physical original receipt was still legally required to be kept.

Herb...

contas wrote:
To make a standard medical record, it needs a file in hard copy, and here the films from conventional X-ray or MRI or CT-scan are considered LEGAL.Any digital imaging like files in hard disk, USB, CD-discs, are suitable for consultations or references but not qualified as LEGAL.So film is still in need and in huge quantity as I know.
The process of conventional imaging:
Xray source --->film .
The process of digital imaging:
Xray source ---> digital sensor ---> hardisk ---> laser printer ---> film.




Mar 19, 2012 at 11:11 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.4 #2 · Kodak to continue making film!


Well, que sera sera. There's always that Leica M10 when film kicks the bucket for good

In the meanwhile, I enjoy it while I can.

HerbChong wrote:
i think that is the minimum you can expect if quality were to hold. i suspect that the price will be around twice but with much lower quality once Fuji cuts back. Kodak will be the first but Fuji won't be far behind.

Herb...





Mar 19, 2012 at 11:24 AM
contas
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p.4 #3 · Kodak to continue making film!


HerbChong wrote:
expect health care costs to continue to rise just for this reason but frankly, i expect the laws to change. credit card receipts in the US used to be required to be kept by the companies issuing the cards for all transactions. the law was changed to include "best available true facsimile" in absence of the physical receipt. American Express received all their receipts, scanned them, and then destroyed them. they had to certify to legal types that they had done their best to preserve the accuracy of their incoming receipts. Paypal would not exist if a physical original receipt
...Show more



Mar 19, 2012 at 08:32 PM
harrygilbert
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p.4 #4 · Kodak to continue making film!


contas wrote:
As it's relevant to my profession, I know Eastman Kodak still makes profits in Medical X-ray films in both categories: Classical or wet film and Digital or dry film and ofcourse with them Kodak still sells automatic processor and laser printer - and there is no clear substitute for X-ray film in the future, so we can still believe Kodak can survive .


My dentist and several friends who are surgeons have dumped film for X-Rays, and have gone 100% digital. They now embed / link MRI and X-Ray images in medical records, and will provide patients with a CD or DVD after running tests.




Mar 19, 2012 at 08:40 PM
Visuals
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p.4 #5 · Kodak to continue making film!


"F" Flim!!!


INSTAGRAM FOR LIFE!!!!!

just kidding......Film should never die!!!
Technology will continue to change... Just look at that lytro camera box thingy...one day we'll be taking photos when we blink!

Film has it's roots imbedded in our photographic history!



Mar 19, 2012 at 09:07 PM
contas
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p.4 #6 · Kodak to continue making film!


@harrygilbert: my answer is already above.


Mar 19, 2012 at 09:22 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.4 #7 · Kodak to continue making film!


Visuals wrote:
"F" Flim!!!

INSTAGRAM FOR LIFE!!!!!

just kidding......Film should never die!!!
Technology will continue to change... Just look at that lytro camera box thingy...one day we'll be taking photos when we blink!

Film has it's roots imbedded in our photographic history!


That is the problem that I personally see with digital. We don't know where it will stop. Photography is changing rapidly and who knows where we will be in just a few years time. For this reason, I have quit digital and came back to film. This is the form of photography that I started with and that I really love. I can't bring myself to like digital no matter how hard I try.



Mar 20, 2012 at 03:58 AM
mirkoc
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p.4 #8 · Kodak to continue making film!


The companies that produce film should support a high quality affordable scanner availability. I mean really affordable, like a $500 for let's say a dedicated 35mm and 120 roll film scanner.
The whole industry should unite in efforts to keep film alive or it will all end in exotic high cost territory.
I understand my thoughts are too optimistic...




Mar 20, 2012 at 04:53 AM
buggz2k
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p.4 #9 · Kodak to continue making film!


I just hope that 4x5 color options remain.
And 8x10, as I would really like to get into that option later.
As for the scanners, I agree, the Epson V750-M is need of updating.
And don't forget 4x5 format!



Mar 20, 2012 at 06:24 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.4 #10 · Kodak to continue making film!


mirkoc wrote:
The companies that produce film should support a high quality affordable scanner availability. I mean really affordable, like a $500 for let's say a dedicated 35mm and 120 roll film scanner.
The whole industry should unite in efforts to keep film alive or it will all end in exotic high cost territory.
I understand my thoughts are too optimistic...




Mirko, there are some really good scanners available at affordable prices. Plustek 7600 or Reflecta Proscan 7200 are both cheap and excellent. My scans are much better than what I get from my pro lab.



Mar 20, 2012 at 06:34 AM
mirkoc
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p.4 #11 · Kodak to continue making film!


@buggz2k
I didn't forget 4x5 format but I believe it is a relatively small community that although it should not be neglected, isn't substantial enough for this specific demand. What kind of update do you wish for current flatbed scanners?

@Ed
Unfortunately these models are 35mm only. I do not underestimate the format though.



Mar 20, 2012 at 07:36 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.4 #12 · Kodak to continue making film!


Reflecta released last year their 120 scanner, but it's not cheap at 2000$. Plustek will release their 120 model any day. No idea about the price though.


Mar 20, 2012 at 07:50 AM
HerbChong
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p.4 #13 · Kodak to continue making film!


with what money? the reason that film is dying is demand is dying. a few hundred thousand diehard film photographers doesn't begin to cover costs of making their film except at high prices.

Herb...

mirkoc wrote:
The companies that produce film should support a high quality affordable scanner availability. I mean really affordable, like a $500 for let's say a dedicated 35mm and 120 roll film scanner.
The whole industry should unite in efforts to keep film alive or it will all end in exotic high cost territory.




Mar 20, 2012 at 09:37 AM
panos.v
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p.4 #14 · Kodak to continue making film!


HerbChong wrote:
with what money? the reason that film is dying is demand is dying. a few hundred thousand diehard film photographers doesn't begin to cover costs of making their film except at high prices.

Herb...


What are the costs exactly of making film? I'm asking. Can someone provide some numbers? Ilford makes B&W film for a profit and it doesn't cost $100/roll. Ok, B&W is not as tricky as colour. But Kodak and Fuji have the machines to make the film. The R&D has been paid for so and if they don't invest any more money in making new types of film all they need to keep these machines making film is to maintain them and keep feeding them chemicals and electricity. How much does that cost?

For the last 10 years all I hear is that film is 2 years from dying...



Mar 20, 2012 at 02:12 PM
kidtexas
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p.4 #15 · Kodak to continue making film!


The big problem with making film is that you make a lot of it all at once, and you need to do that to turn a profit. These numbers are not exact, so don't quote me, but it can take a day to produce 1 to 2 years worth of a type of film if that film isn't a big seller (Kodachrome at the end). So you have to maintain a giant film coating machine and all the associated equipment AND you have to maintain a full work force that can run do everything for on that one day a year that you need to coat Kodachrome. At some point the math just stops working and you cancel said product. Obviously, there is prep work needed for a product, so it takes longer than a day, but you get the point.

As far as I know, Kodak coats all of its film on one machine. All of it. Slide (no more), B&W, C-41, motion picture, everything. I think they were coating motion on one machine and stills on the another not too long ago, but they mothballed one of the machines and coat all of their products on just the one.

A single 'run' at Kodak is 54" wide and 6000' long. About 65,000 rolls of 35mm film. Less since I'm sure there is some waste involved. And according to a guy who used to be a film engineer at Kodak, you can coat that in an hour.

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum45/73975-clarification-kodak-coating-practice.html

Hypothetical scenario: you only coat once a year, and nothing else, and make 65,000 rolls of film. You sell those rolls for $5/roll, 100% profit (I know, not realistic at all). That's $325k. Per year. If it's all profit, which it's not. But you have to maintain equipment, maintain your workforce, buy raw goods, pay for electricity, etc. You better be making a lot more than 65,000 rolls per year to make it worthwhile.

It's obviously much more complicated than that. 35mm, 120, and large format film are all coated on different bases, so those are three different products. You also have to worry about packaging, inventory, promotion (or lack thereof), rising material costs (silver AND petroleum), and a host of other issues I'm sure I'm not aware of.

The troubling part is that even though a single product might be profitable in and of itself, at some point, if you aren't running your coating machine enough, you have to shut it all down, because a lot of the costs are probably fixed costs (salaries, benefits, machine maintenance).

I think film production in general is geared towards being profitable after making a certain (large) amount of product. Kodak even more so. They built their business and facilities around moving big numbers and it just might not scale down - depending on where 'down' is. They used to have coating machines all over the world, running 24/7. Now they have one. I'd be shocked if it runs 24/7 now.

Ilford is in a bit better shape. They've already reorganized for one. Ilford coats B&W film and B&W paper on the same machine, so not only are they utilizing their machine for multiple products, those products have some synergy. Also, B&W coating is not as complicated (and B&W film has been niche for much longer than color film has been). But still, a certain minimum amount of sales are required to stay profitable.



Mar 20, 2012 at 02:40 PM
HerbChong
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p.4 #16 · Kodak to continue making film!


a few weeks ago, Ilford had posted on their web site that an entire batch of one of their papers was improperly coated and that they had to scrap it with no known date when they would be able to ship a batch. apparently the batch has been replaced but guess who ate the costs? this is what happens when you don't run your equipment enough and don't have experienced people running it.

Kodak had huge plants to make their film and if they were to change over to smaller machines so that they could continue to make their film more frequently and keep the machines running, it's still replacing all their machines. Kodak took too long to decide to downsize and diversify and more importantly, has huge pension obligations. even if it replaced all of its film production line with a state of the art right-sized one at no cost at all, those pension obligations are enough to wipe out most of the company. that's why sooner rather than later, Kodak will no longer make any film and there won't be anyone to buy their equipment.

Herb...

kidtexas wrote:
Ilford is in a bit better shape. They've already reorganized for one. Ilford coats B&W film and B&W paper on the same machine, so not only are they utilizing their machine for multiple products, those products have some synergy. Also, B&W coating is not as complicated (and B&W film has been niche for much longer than color film has been). But still, a certain minimum amount of sales are required to stay profitable.



Mar 20, 2012 at 04:05 PM
panos.v
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p.4 #17 · Kodak to continue making film!


65000 rolls is not a lot. If you do two runs a week, that's 6.5m rolls a year. My 35mm consumption is 60-70/year, so you only need about 100,000 people like me globally. If you run every day then you need 250,000 people globally to use film like that. And I'm not even adding 120 film or sheets.

I don't know, is that a lot?



Mar 20, 2012 at 05:43 PM
corposant
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p.4 #18 · Kodak to continue making film!


panos.v wrote:
I don't know, is that a lot?


Good question, how many photography/fine arts students are out there, who are required to use film in their coursework? We always forget about them!



Mar 20, 2012 at 05:51 PM
kidtexas
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p.4 #19 · Kodak to continue making film!


I know 65,000 isn't a lot. But that's also about an hour of running the machine, and who knows how long of preparation. It's much more profitable I'm sure to prep the machine for one product and do many runs in a row. And your profit isn't $5/roll either. My point was that a master roll equals about $325k of retail product. Their net profit off of it must be less than that, as presumably their expenses for it are less than that as well.

Also, do you shoot 60-70 rolls of the same film? I shoot about 100 rolls per year, spread out over 5 film types. Kodak currently makes 5 B&W films, 3 of which are in 3 different formats (for a total of 11 product lines), 4 non-consumer color films (not counting Gold and that stuff), 1 of which is in 2 formats, the other three in 3 (total of 11), 9 motion capture films (I think), at least 2 print films. I'm sure there's plenty of other products that I've glossed over, including the consumer films and internegative films for motion, but you still have about 33 products that you have to coat. They used to make a lot more too. And those motion products are a lot larger in quantity than stills. NFL films alone shoots about 1000 miles of 16mm film per season. If/when those customers go, the stills might go too.

So you have to coat a lot of product just so stuff is on the shelves for people to buy. And a danger when you have a lot of product on the shelves is that people DON'T buy it and you have to eat the cost. I think this is essentially what happened to Kodachrome. The last batch they coated lasted three years in the marketplace, if I recall correctly.

Last I heard, Kodak's film group was still profitable. So they are making it work. However, if demand continues to drop in a way they can't navigate, that could easily change.

If you are interested in this stuff, there's a lot more on the film forum at photo.net or at APUG. Ron Andrews and Ron Mowrey (Photo Engineer) both worked for Kodak and have lots of facts and figures about this kind of stuff. Also, this book is pretty cool:
http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/



Mar 20, 2012 at 06:04 PM
carstenw
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p.4 #20 · Kodak to continue making film!


I wonder if IMAX would die without Kodak?


Mar 21, 2012 at 03:12 AM
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