Marty Bingham wrote:
I have an idea. Hang on because this may be pretty radical...
1. Get a D800.
2. Take some photographs.
3. See what happens.
4. If they aren't very good, practice.
Thanks,
Marty
This. I don't understand why people flip over a new camera. When the D2X came out, well known online reviewers raved about the high mp count and how it would demand the utmost care in technique. Has every last person online mastered 12mp cameras? Because you sure don't hear anyone talking about very careful steps they take when shooting with a d2x, d300, d700, or any other camera of this level anymore. Now, the d2x is old news. No one cares. But the D800 is NEW, so IT'S going to require new techniques few people are capable of. Does no one see the revolving nature of the whole situation? It reeks of a lot of people who are eccentric techies who love to get spun up about things that really don't matter.
Marty Bingham wrote:
I have an idea. Hang on because this may be pretty radical...
1. Get a D800.
2. Take some photographs.
3. See what happens.
4. If they aren't very good, practice.
Thanks,
Marty
This is what everyone has been trying to explain the whole time. People are just becoming irritated because a few guys mentioned that they MIGHT have to practice if the D800 doesn't present itself practical as their D700 . I agree with you and Steve Perry all the way.
Romulus90 wrote:
....I don't understand why people flip over a new camera. When the D2X came out, well known online reviewers raved about the high mp count and how it would demand the utmost care in technique. Has every last person online mastered 12mp cameras? Because you sure don't hear anyone talking about very careful steps they take when shooting with a d2x, d300, d700, or any other camera of this level anymore. Now, the d2x is old news. No one cares. But the D800 is NEW, so IT'S going to require new techniques few people are capable of. Does no one see the revolving nature of the whole situation? It reeks of a lot of people who are eccentric techies who love to get spun up about things that really don't matter....Show more →
Generally, I agree with you. I think I have posted enough in a couple of D800 threads to get that point across.
The only caveat I have is that taking full advantage of the much higher resolution of the 36MP D800 versus the 12MP D700 may require changes in technique and equipment. This depends on how good our equipment and techniques are to begin with.
For example, since we have 73% more resolution, we can view 73% larger prints at the same distance and have the same visual experience. But, that is only true if get the same level of motion blur reduction. That might mean faster shutter speeds or a better tripod. It might mean using mirror lockup and a remote release. Some of our lenses may not be up to snuff either. But I think this point is overly emphasized.
I think folks are focusing too much on possible issues and not enough on the benefits. More demanding sensors will require better lenses. Better lenses at the high end will ultimately trickle down to better lenses on the lower end of things. Nikon has been revamping their prime lens setup on the high and low end for the last couple of years. I'm sure this is no accident and I'm happy to be back in the Nikon camp as a result of this.
if you can't be bothered to think, i can't help you. a DX body and an FX body can't be compared on pixel density unless you crop the FX body to DX too in which case what is the point? back in the days of film when you shot very similar resolution film on all your bodies, this hit you in the face all the time. the large the format, the more stringent the requirements on technique precisely because you use film which has the pretty much the same recording density.the D3X demanded better technique from lots of people and especially better lenses if they wanted to actually show how much more it could capture than the D3. the D800 adds another level to that. if you are going to throw away all the extra megapixels to go back to no better resolution than before, what is the point?
Herb...
gfinlayson wrote:
You can't just state that someone's wrong without a sensible argument to the contrary. That's arrogant and rude.
I can guarantee there is a difference. My 5di and 5dii have proven this. However, they're both full frame and crop cameras aren't as easy to compare.
Compared with a d700 "you" will notice focus *problems* more and you will notice motion blur *problems* more. Anyone saying you may not can't understand the issue.
However, if your technique is already rock solid, you won't notice a problem.
PhilDWedding wrote:
I can guarantee there is a difference. My 5di and 5dii have proven this. However, they're both full frame and crop cameras aren't as easy to compare.
Compared with a d700 "you" will notice focus *problems* more and you will notice motion blur *problems* more. Anyone saying you may not can't understand the issue.
However, if your technique is already rock solid, you won't notice a problem.
Pixel density does not increase motion blur or focus errors on a sensor. Period. Same sensor size same motion blur and same focus errors. Anyone that says different doesn't know what they are talking about. What more pixels does allow is for you to take a closer look at motion blur and focus errors. These issues are more apparent on larger prints. Duh.....
As an owner of both a D700 and a D3x I can state unequivocally that the D700 is a far more forgiving camera. I expect the D800 twins will demand even more in terms of glass and technique. Since I have both on order, I will compare them to my Nikons as well as my 645d and perhaps the Fuji Pro X1. Maybe I'll let you know.
harvey steeves wrote:
As an owner of both a D700 and a D3x I can state unequivocally that the D700 is a far more forgiving camera. I expect the D800 twins will demand even more in terms of glass and technique. Since I have both on order, I will compare them to my Nikons as well as my 645d and perhaps the Fuji Pro X1. Maybe I'll let you know.
At the same print size, the D700 is no more forgiving than the D3X. Again, motion blur and focus errors are the same on the same size sensors. larger prints and pixel peeping will show the blur or focus errors more clearly.
rirakuma wrote:
I've just ordered my D800 and now I'm having serious thoughts about how hard it will be trying to get tack sharp images in the shutter speeds that I'm used to. I'm thinking if I can get a near sharp image handheld on my D90 with 1/50 I may need something like 1/100 on the D800 (I'm just using hypothetical numbers). As an enthusiast who does this for a hobby Im starting to think that it will not be easy/convenient to use the full potential of the D800. I know some people have mentioned that technique will be the shortfall for many D800 users and I'm no tripod hugger so I'll be shooting mostly handheld. Is this bothering anyone else?...Show more →
If this 1/50 is with a 50mm lens you are doing good, because it is a DX-camera I would say, that with a 50mm lens you would normally use focal lenght + 50 % (1/75 sec, just for the record, 1/75 does not exist).
But with very good technique you can go lower.
I have shoot with pistols for many years, and use the same technique, the breathing is very important, and do not drink a lot of coffee just before you shoot, and I also avoid smoking just before I shoot
I need about 50 % or sometimes about the double with my D3x comparing my D700 = 1/50 sec will be 1/125 sec with a 50mm lens, and then I am sure it is sharp and can be printed out huge- a lot of people said, that the D3x was only for tripods, but that is not right with the right technique and right shutterspeed.
I have also ordered a D800, but still in doubt if it should be D800E - time will show.
afm901 wrote:
Pixel density does not increase motion blur or focus errors on a sensor. Period. Same sensor size same motion blur and same focus errors. Anyone that says different doesn't know what they are talking about. What more pixels does allow is for you to take a closer look at motion blur and focus errors. These issues are more apparent on larger prints. Duh.....
Scott
We are saying the same thing. You will *notice* the errors more since the vast majority of people zoom 100% on both cameras. That's why I used the word *notice*. I didn't say they would be more evident on the same sized prints.
In fact I now check all of my "focus issues" at 13MP rather than 21MP since I was dumping files which were perfectly usable at the size they needed to be printed.
Thanks for the Duh. I totally understand the problem. I may not have put it quite right, but I totally understand the problem.
quote]
This is a myth that got repeated enough times to become an 'internet fact.' It takes 2-3x the focal length to get consistently sharp images regardless of the sensor size. quote<<<
In my case it may be 3x but it depends on the shooter and their technique more than the camera or lens.
Generally I've had to increase my speed in a ratio closer to the pixel density plus the focal length difference.
Nikon recognizes the problem.
There is a new setting that automatically speeds up the camera at greater focal lengths.
PhilDWedding wrote:
We are saying the same thing. You will *notice* the errors more since the vast majority of people zoom 100% on both cameras. That's why I used the word *notice*. I didn't say they would be more evident on the same sized prints.
In fact I now check all of my "focus issues" at 13MP rather than 21MP since I was dumping files which were perfectly usable at the size they needed to be printed.
Thanks for the Duh. I totally understand the problem. I may not have put it quite right, but I totally understand the problem.
Scott has the proclivity to agree, but argue about it at the same sequence. Either that or he had a very hard time comprehending an agreement. But then again goes based off what the internet tells him. First Thom Hogan, Ken Rockwell must be next lol. DUH...
And to Kibsgaard's post, I shoot pistols competitively as well and I couldn't agree more. Some of these photographers just don't know what we are talking about sometimes because they care not to exercise methods other than pressing the shutter button. The ones that do know, understand how important it affects camera shake and remedies a few stops.
PhilDWedding wrote:
We are saying the same thing. You will *notice* the errors more since the vast majority of people zoom 100% on both cameras. That's why I used the word *notice*. I didn't say they would be more evident on the same sized prints.
In fact I now check all of my "focus issues" at 13MP rather than 21MP since I was dumping files which were perfectly usable at the size they needed to be printed.
Thanks for the Duh. I totally understand the problem. I may not have put it quite right, but I totally understand the problem.
Phil,
Cool. It wasn't clear we were saying the same thing so I spelled out my thoughts more clearly and succinctly. The "Duh" was self-deprecation for my obvious statement. It was not directed at you. I am sorry that was not clear.
Let me add another point. Some folks are saying that defraction is more of an issue with the D800. Just like image blur and focus issues, defraction does not increase when you have more pixel density. Defraction is a lens issue. So, whatever the defraction is on a D700 with a particular lens at a particular aperture setting, it is the same on a D800. The defraction is just easier to see because you can magnify it more when pixel peeping.
afm901 wrote:
Pixel density does not increase motion blur or focus errors on a sensor. Period. Same sensor size same motion blur and same focus errors. Anyone that says different doesn't know what they are talking about. What more pixels does allow is for you to take a closer look at motion blur and focus errors. These issues are more apparent on larger prints. Duh.....
Scott
Doesn't matter how anyone says it, the result is the same.
From the Nikon D800 Technical Manual...
"The superior resolution of the D800/D800E makes small
amounts of focus blur more obvious. Select a shutter speed
slightly faster than you would choose when photographing
the same subject with other cameras."
