theSuede wrote:
It is very reasonable. And in any given situation where the 18MP M9 would give "a certain amount" of moire, the 36MP D800 with a similar field-of-view lens will give slightly less strong moire - at a point slightly further away from the camera, OR in a pattern slightly smaller.
Well, if you change the framing or subject, then it's not a "given situation" anymore, is it. In a "given situation" where the M9 produces moire, the D800 would have no moire at all. If you do change the framing and/or subject so that the pattern now lines up with the D800 pixel pitch, yes then you could get moire, but then again you might not if the lens does not provide enough micro contrast for those finer structures.
I've always been "old school" @ "glass rules" and sought out "great glass" at the bargain prices of alts.
As mentioned earlier it is glass that is outresolving the sensor that is a factor @ moire. With the likes of the D800E having such small pixels ... will it be a situation where those who are using mediocre glass will benefit from the D800E by virtue of the "lesser losses" of no AA filter more so than those using stellar glass and incurring moire?
I probably didn't word that very well, but I think you get the gist.
I've always been "old school" @ "glass rules" and sought out "great glass" at the bargain prices of alts.
As mentioned earlier it is glass that is outresolving the sensor that is a factor @ moire. With the likes of the D800E having such small pixels ... will it be a situation where those who are using mediocre glass will benefit from the D800E by virtue of the "lesser losses" of no AA filter more so than those using stellar glass and incurring moire?
I probably didn't word that very well, but I think you get the gist.
even mediocre glass will have no problem getting moire. it's people who shoot everything wide open that will really see a benefit. most lenses aren't sharp wider than f/2 to outresolve 36mp, but there will be better perceived sharpness and contrast (and less SA) in the in focus parts without the AA filter.
sebboh wrote:
even mediocre glass will have no problem getting moire. it's people who shoot everything wide open that will really see a benefit. most lenses aren't sharp wider than f/2 to outresolve 36mp, but there will be better perceived sharpness and contrast (and less SA) in the in focus parts without the AA filter.
I agree re. the lenses, but would argue that stopping down does little to nothing to prevent Moire .
What helped me is to change the camera position or the angle light hits the object .
Unfortunately, neither is an option in most cases, so usually I have to do an extra shot with different lighting for the affected areas (in the studio, that is).
And the detail sharpness is not perceived, it's sharpness, period .
But try and fix moire , and sharpness is the least of your worries .
Tomser wrote:
I agree re. the lenses, but would argue that stopping down does little to nothing to prevent Moire .
a stop and a half past the diffraction limit usually does the trick for me. I didn't mention that in my last comment though - I was talking about shooting at f/1.2-f/1.8 where most lenses aren't sharp enough to show moire on the d800E.
One of the official Nikon comparisons between the D800 and D800E which showed the most dramatic difference between the two with regard to sharpness appears to be majorly flawed as shown above.
rico wrote:
Your analysis is flawed from the start. Of course, the average Joe will take more resolution, everything else being equal. On those occasions when more is bad, I shoot my 1950s-era glass... on film. Best to think of the 800E as having more noise, not more resolution, not more detail, not more sharpness. The 800E has exactly the same resolution as the 800, but performs no noise reduction (you must do that yourself in post ). Meanwhile, the 800 with AA filter does noise reduction automatically in hardware! This amazing hardware noise reduction works at all apertures, with lenses of any quality, and you get a credit at time of purchase. ...Show more →
AA filters dont reduce noise, they simply blur away lots of essential fine detail...I think most here would agree, if you pay good money for a high resolution camera, its a better to be able to capture high resolution images with it rather than soft and mushy ones caused by having an AA filter.
One of the official Nikon comparisons between the D800 and D800E which showed the most dramatic difference between the two with regard to sharpness appears to be majorly flawed as shown above.
This really does'nt come as a supprise to me...Nikon appear to be pulling a fast one here when they claim that the D800E has no AA filter and greater sharpness than the D800, because the D800E actually has two AA filters, not none!...The second one at right angles to the first to try and cancel out the effect of the first one...Trouble is, as the images shown in the link above clearly show, it obviously has'nt worked and it looks as though Nikon have been faking the sample quality to try and put a positive spin on the D800E.
I still dont understand why Nikon could'nt simply remove the AA filter alltogether in the D800E, unless of course they designed the D800 in such a way that the AA filter cannot be removed, just as with some existing Nikon cameras...If so, it makes perfect sense that they try and cancel the effect of the unremovable AA filter by fitting another in front of it. Personally, I think if they could'nt remove the AA filter then they should'nt have bothered fitting another and for the extra price you will have to pay for the D800E, its probably going to unlikely that users will be able to notice any difference in sharpness from the D800 in real world use.
Alf Beharie wrote:
AA filters dont reduce noise, they simply blur away lots of essential fine detail...I think most here would agree, if you pay good money for a high resolution camera, its a better to be able to capture high resolution images with it rather than soft and mushy ones caused by having an AA filter.
I would not agree 100% because some of that "essential fine detail" is contaminated with false data/ artifacts which, upon interpolation up to large sizes - the kind that one might use to make large prints - can actually look worse than a properly sharpened image from a camera that used an AA filter. There is really not a black and white answer here. When we are dealing with interpolated color, as we are here, there will be trade offs with either approach - AA or non AA. Each user will have to choose which trade offs make sense for their uses.
Alf Beharie wrote:
This really does'nt come as a supprise to me...Nikon appear to be pulling a fast one here when they claim that the D800E has no AA filter and greater sharpness than the D800, because the D800E actually has two AA filters, not none!...The second one at right angles to the first to try and cancel out the effect of the first one...Trouble is, as the images shown in the link above clearly show, it obviously has'nt worked and it looks as though Nikon have been faking the sample quality to try and put a positive spin on the D800E.
I still dont understand why Nikon could'nt simply remove the AA filter alltogether in the D800E, unless of course they designed the D800 in such a way that the AA filter cannot be removed, just as with some existing Nikon cameras...If so, it makes perfect sense that they try and cancel the effect of the unremovable AA filter by fitting another in front of it. Personally, I think if they could'nt remove the AA filter then they should'nt have bothered fitting another and for the extra price you will have to pay for the D800E, its probably going to unlikely that users will be able to notice any difference in sharpness from the D800 in real world use....Show more →
So, you are suggesting that splitting the incoming light rays and then re-assembling that light ray, as Nikon is doing with the D800E, will result in a softer image than say just using an optical glass with the correct refractive index (so focusing/ aperture remain correct for the design of the focal plane) instead? I would be curious to hear some expert opinions on that.
Best to think of the 800E as having more noise, not more resolution, not more detail, not more sharpness. The 800E has exactly the same resolution as the 800, but performs no noise reduction (you must do that yourself in post