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Archive 2012 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity
  
 
cyra
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p.3 #1 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


ok guys, there you go.
I am not trying to proove anything here, this is just an impression I always had, that the 25 is far more contrasty than the 35.

I happen to have shot the exact image at 25 mm for comparison, with a black shadow on the bottom unfortunately.

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1327332975.SEQ.0.jpg


here it is cropped to compare to the 35mm

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1327332976.SEQ.1.jpg


and the 35 again.

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1310426353.SEQ.3.jpg


I am now surprized how similar they are when the 25 is cropped. Part of the more contrasty look might be due to the different angle of view and smaller structures in the image. I still think the 25 has more intense colours. It might also vignette more.

what do you think? The 25 sure will have lost a bit due to cropping. or: after cropping it still looks as good as the 35.

John - you own them both as well, what would you say?





Edited on Jan 23, 2012 at 11:06 AM · View previous versions
Jan 23, 2012 at 10:46 AM
cyra
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p.3 #2 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


edit: the WB seems to have come out differently (by camera automatic). If I set the 25 at the same settings as the 35 image it looks like this:

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1327334490.SEQ.0.jpg



Jan 23, 2012 at 10:55 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #3 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


cyra wrote:
ok guys, there you go.

I am now surprized how similar they are when the 25 is cropped. Part of the more contrasty look might be due to the different angle of view and smaller structures in the image. I still think the 25 has more intense colours. It might also vignette more.

what do you think? The 25 sure will have lost a bit due to cropping. or: after cropping it still looks as good as the 35.



This is a great comparison. Thanks for posting it. I certainly think your experience with both lenses gives you plenty of justification for forming an opinion about both. That said, these look more similar than dissimilar when cropped to the same fov. I opened both up in PS and, enlarged a bit and cropped this section out which really shows some subtle differences. The biggest difference appears to be the color balance, with the Z25 much warmer and the Z35 I would guess more neutral? To most, a warmer color balance looks more appealing so I wonder if that might play a part in preference- easy enough to alter of course. The other thing is that in this crop, the Z35 shows more contrast but that could be due to subtle changes in cloud coverage/ movement. Anyway, here is what I saw per the above. If you don't wish it posted, I will remove it.

Z35 on left, Z25 on right.
http://www.gibranstudio.com/zcomparo.jpg
Jan 23, 2012 at 11:13 AM
mco_970
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p.3 #4 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


Very interesting to see them side by side. Thanks for posting them Cyra, and for putting them together side by side Tariq!
Jan 23, 2012 at 11:35 AM
cyra
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p.3 #5 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


It might be so that the 25 comes out with a more brownish hue.
as to the crops: The 35 does look slightly better, but you need to keep in mind that the 25 image is cropped much more than the 35, and as such holds up very very well. (it is 72% pixelwith at full size).
You can only compare the resolution by moving backwards with the 35 and taking an image of the same content, which was not possible there and hardly is for infinity images.


Jan 23, 2012 at 11:39 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #6 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


cyra wrote:
It might be so that the 25 comes out with a more brownish hue.
as to the crops: The 35 does look slightly better, but you need to keep in mind that the 25 image is cropped much more than the 35, and as such holds up very very well. (it is 72% pixelwith at full size).
You can only compare the resolution by moving backwards with the 35 and taking an image of the same content, which was not possible there and hardly is for infinity images.

That's true though I highly doubt your in danger of maxing out the resolving ability of either lens with a Nikon D700. Both lenses do look great. The solution is to own both like you!
Jan 23, 2012 at 11:52 AM
cyra
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p.3 #7 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


and the 25/2


Jan 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM
wiseguy010
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p.3 #8 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


IsleofGough wrote:
I get strong CA with the 35 mm f2 Zeiss. Here is a unprocessed (no curves, hue/sat, vibrance, etc.) jpg on a cloudy day at f10. Look at the tree. I could desaturate it in PS, but the benefit of Zeiss lenses of not having to do much/any post processing goes away. ISO 200, 1/45 sec, Nikon D1x (NEF available to be checked)
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr146/IsleofGough/DSC_0500-1.jpg

I am sure I am overlooking something, but where is the strong CA in this picture?
Jan 23, 2012 at 03:53 PM
carstenw
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p.3 #9 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


In the tree


Jan 23, 2012 at 04:33 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #10 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


Honestly, there could be all sorts of sensor bloom/ exposure issues contributing to the terrible, washed out color on the train shot given how blown out the sky/ clouds are. There is a very weird magenta and cyan cast in the entire sky in various areas - almost a solarized look. CA would be the last thing most would likely notice.
Jan 23, 2012 at 04:52 PM
AhamB
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p.3 #11 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


Not a convincing example; the sky is almost completely blown out (without any color information) and those blue fringes in the tree could be the blue of the sky showing up.
Jan 23, 2012 at 05:00 PM
IsleofGough
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p.3 #12 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


The actual sky that day was white clouds against grey background. It could be the exposure or camera (old d1x) but as mentioned, I did absolutely no processing of the image, and blown up, the color fringes are strange. I haven't seen this with the 21 or 100 lenses, and not frequently with the 35 except in high contrast situations stopped down.
Another example (100% on right)
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr146/IsleofGough/AnotherCAproblem.jpg
The house may be purple and the sky white (it was) but the branch turns from black to purple when it goes against the white sky.
Jan 23, 2012 at 08:22 PM
magiclight
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p.3 #13 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


Has anyone compared the 35/2 with the 35/1.4 at infinity ? I presume the 35/1.4 would perform well except for the corners.
Jan 25, 2012 at 01:27 AM
mpmendenhall
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p.3 #14 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


IsleofGough wrote:
The actual sky that day was white clouds against grey background. It could be the exposure or camera (old d1x) but as mentioned, I did absolutely no processing of the image, and blown up, the color fringes are strange. I haven't seen this with the 21 or 100 lenses, and not frequently with the 35 except in high contrast situations stopped down.

The house may be purple and the sky white (it was) but the branch turns from black to purple when it goes against the white sky.

It looks to me like the effects of longitudinal CA, a class of optical aberrations that Zeiss seems to have been less careful to minimize in several of the ZE designs (likely as a tradeoff for improved performance in other aspects). This gives the tree branches (closer to the camera, in front of some plane of best focus) a slight purple-ish halo, and the edge of the house roof (behind the plane of best focus) has a slight green-ish halo (unless that is just color filter moiré). There is also some color moiré in the fine branches --- indicating that the lens is decently sharp, aside from the defocus color fringing. The moderate longitudinal CA seems quite consistent with what I have seen in both my own photos and samples posted by others from the ZE 35/2.

The Z*100/2 Makro-Planar can have even more wild defocus color under the "right" conditions (while still being a bitingly sharp lens at the focal plane), based on some examples I have seen. Try using that lens wide open on a neutral-colored high contrast subject passing through the focal plane (printed text would be an obvious example), and you will probably see more longitudinal CA.
Jan 25, 2012 at 02:07 AM
johnahill
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p.3 #15 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


cyra wrote:

ok guys, there you go.
I am not trying to proove anything here, this is just an impression I always had, that the 25 is far more contrasty than the 35.

I happen to have shot the exact image at 25 mm for comparison, with a black shadow on the bottom unfortunately.

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1327332975.SEQ.0.jpg


here it is cropped to compare to the 35mm

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1327332976.SEQ.1.jpg


and the 35 again.

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1310426353.SEQ.3.jpg


I am now surprized how similar they are when the 25 is cropped. Part of the more contrasty look might be due to the different angle of view and smaller structures in the image. I still...Show more →

I haven't directly compared the 25 and 35 by cropping like that.
I'm going to get out with the 35 this weekend and try to get some shots in good light at varying apertures and see how it goes.

Of all the 35 shots in this thread so far the ones that really look good are the medium distance shots that really pop and that look or rendering doesn't seem to carry through to stopped down infinity shots.
Jan 25, 2012 at 03:14 AM
cyra
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p.3 #16 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


I agree with you. I have been scanning through my 35 landscape pictures, and most of them didn't get into the marked selection of "better" shots. They kind of look boring. Partly that might be because I don't care for the looks of infinity shots at FL 35mm, but I agree that there might be some rendering magic missing closed down at infinity. I wasn't actually aware of this. I knew I needed to be careful as to stop down properly since I don't like the looks of a slight background blur. Maybe it needs to be stopped down to at least 8?
I also think the 35 is beautiful for various man made materials, as stone and wood and metal and especially materials that show rough structures, the OOF rendering is just beautiful. But I have mixed feelings about how it renders trees and distant landscape OOF.

here is one I quite like, but the magic here comes with the light.

ZF 35/2 at f2

http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1320411936.SEQ.0.jpg



Jan 25, 2012 at 07:23 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #17 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


Given the great direct comparison Cyra has posted and how similar the two lenses appear with similar FOV's, my bet is any preference for the wider 25/2.8 over the 35/2 is down to three things:

1) Those who simply prefer a wider FOV.
2) The possible warmer color balance of the 25 vs the more neutral color balance of the 35. Most people will prefer a warmer color balance at first glance in general.
3) Those who prefer more vignetting in their images. The 25 performs at least one stop behind the 35 in this respect and it's common for folks to actually be drawn into an image with darker corners, particularly on a wider FOV.
Jan 25, 2012 at 07:46 AM
Mescalamba
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p.3 #18 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


IsleofGough wrote:
The actual sky that day was white clouds against grey background. It could be the exposure or camera (old d1x) but as mentioned, I did absolutely no processing of the image, and blown up, the color fringes are strange. I haven't seen this with the 21 or 100 lenses, and not frequently with the 35 except in high contrast situations stopped down.
Another example (100% on right)
The house may be purple and the sky white (it was) but the branch turns from black to purple when it goes against the white sky.

Its so-called color fringing. Purple/magneta-ish borders of high contrast areas. Tho usually seen on C/Y 50mm f1.7 and similar not much on modern ZE lenses.

Im not so sure its lens itself. Ive seen samples from 1DsMK3 and more modern dSLRs and none of them shows this. Im not 100% sure but isnt purple fringing related to sensor too?
Jan 25, 2012 at 08:31 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #19 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


Mescalamba wrote:
Im not so sure its lens itself. Ive seen samples from 1DsMK3 and more modern dSLRs and none of them shows this. Im not 100% sure but isnt purple fringing related to sensor too?

My guess is your right. It's probably a combination of factors, the major one being again an overexposed, bright sky. This will induce all sorts of sensor issues and magnify any lens issues.
Jan 25, 2012 at 08:47 AM
philip_pj
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p.3 #20 · ZE35/2.0 - Lack of magic at infinity


Thanks for the comparison shots. I agree with Cyra, the 25mm image is much better for this usage. By better I refer to the greater image depth perception and better colour tone separation, which are the two hallmarks I look for in this type of photography.

It's actually a tough test, this image - note the flatness of the foreground plateau colours. From the 25mm, the colour balance is more convincing. The 35/2 looks almost Leica-like, a more painterly look. Either would be much improved by some midtone contrast work in post.

Zeiss publish MTF at the stopped down aperture that is best overall (to my knowledge), and this results in faster lenses being graphed at f4-f5.6. Slow zooms are always better at f8 (CY 100-300, 35-135 and of course the 35-70).
It's almost always two stops down from open for all lenses.

The 35/2 is most unlikely to better the 35-70 at f8, as its performance is demonstrated to be markedly inferior at f8 compared to what it does at f4, here:
http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/503-zeiss35f2eosff?start=1
and here:
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1145/cat/98
(use the blur graphic).
The centre takes a big hit, and corners are no better with stop down, and CA rises with aperture numbers...

Since deep landscapes for the 35mm focal length frequently require f8-f11 for decent DOF in many compositions, this is a primary reason for using the 35-70 zoom for this kind of work. It is very likely therefore that the zoom would deliver better landscape results overall, as DOF is generally desirable. Its palette is a bonus, even if ACR/LR struggles to keep up.

Looking again at the MTF charts on page 2, and using photozone's 'shorthand' but useful technique of averaging sagittal and tangential data, the 35/2 starts its 40 lpmm average line at .65, drops below .6 at about 8mm then declines steadily to register around .50 at 20mm. The zoom starts at around the same .65, stays at that level until 15mm then drops steadily to be .45 at 20mm. More of the frame is above .60 (a benchmark figure), and you get the big advantage of *much greater DOF at the best performance, ideal shooting aperture*.

Also the zoom is *weakest* at 35mm - and improves markedly after 40mm, and by 50mm its lines are flat and distortion is a low 0.6. I mention this because one very often needs these extra focal lengths in such work to fine-tune the image composition, or try out alternative compositions.

I have nothing against prime lenses, and use several. If the 35/2 was substantially better for what I do, I would buy it in a flash, it's great value and has many other uses the zoom cannot do well, if at all. It isn't, so I haven't. It is a typical modern fast Zeiss.

Many of the ZE/F redesigns are a stop faster compared with the Contax lenses: 35/2 vs 35/2.8, 100/2 MP vs 100/2.8 MP, 60/2.8 MP vs 50/2 MP, and now 25/2 vs 25/2.8. Nothing slow (once past the rather poor 18mm), and no zooms.

Different design intent/optimisation, for different uses, in a different age - so it seems.




Jan 25, 2012 at 09:18 AM
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