p.8 #1 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Lars Johnsson wrote:
But you are comparing the Photographers here. And not the equipment. She will get better photos with the FF DSLR if using both cameras.
But not she wouldn't drag the 15lb kit everywhere..or if she was seen when trying to capture candids... Or if the candids were shot at 400mm vs 35.. The whole photo changes.
I don't want to take a 15 lb kit around the city...regularly. When I can take a 3.5 lb
I get what you are saying..in absolute iq the ff is usually better, assuming good lenses. That said, not everyone is taking their entire kit with them. Everyone has a different threshold.
I don't think the 70-200 is ii is all that heavy for taking to an event, with a purpose, but I'm unlikely to take it and my 5d along with a 24-105 on a general walk about, or certainly every day to and from work as a 'just in case the mood hits me'....not when I have 15-20 lbs of stuff I am already carrying.
You are completely dismissing the advantages, and yes, if she took the same exact photo with ff vs a nex, when printed to 20x30 or larger, the ff would be better... But that's a whole lot of requirements.
Not too many people regularly print larger than 12x18 or so
People do regularly leave heavy dslr,s at home
Nobody is saying a fine artist should use a nex...but jut as many could say ff is pointless mf or bust!
It depends on the photographer and the situation.
Just as I would have a much harder time shooting do agility with a m9 and 50 lux than a 1d4 and 70-200, I would have a much harder time getting good street candids with a 1d4 and 70-200 compared to the m9.
Different needs for the shot, different output needs, different weight requirements, different different different.
You just seem to be stuck on pure iq, in which case why bother with full frame, get to medium format.
p.8 #2 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
h00ligan -- I think Lars understands those points. It is a simple matter of him replying to the best IQ, while you (and others) concentrate on the convenience of light gear as the main appeal.
It's not a big deal as far as I can tell.
You are both correct -- the larger sensor/MP will produce better images, and you won't get an image if you don't take a camera.
Maybe mirrorless is driving people a little crazy?
p.8 #3 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Lars Johnsson wrote:
The big difference is that I agree that a FF DSLR will have less good IQ compared to a 80MP Phase MF digital back. But the Nex 5 owner say his Nex will not be lacking anything compared to a good DSLR.
You didn't get that
Nex cameras are nice with rather good IQ. But they can't replace a DSLR even if a few people here think so.
I have never seen anyone in this thread say a NEX can replace a DSLR. In fact I think I made it a point to state that a NEX can't replace a DSLR and that's the reason I still have a DSLR.
p.8 #4 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Don't own the 7D but beside my big one I own the 600D and it's sensor is way better than the Oly Sensor in IQ and noise above ISO 400.
To call the EP-1 (in my case) a cheap pocket sized cam is a strange kind of humor.
molson wrote:
Well, it's certainly better in the noise department than recent Canon "enthusiast" cameras like the 7D...
It's funny how people expect a small, cheap, pocket-size camera to perform just like an oversized, overweight $5,000 DSLR... and if it doesn't, it somehow logically follows that it's a piece of crap...
p.8 #5 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Lars Johnsson wrote:
The big difference is that I agree that a FF DSLR will have less good IQ compared to a 80MP Phase MF digital back. But the Nex 5 owner say his Nex will not be lacking anything compared to a good DSLR.
You didn't get that
Nex cameras are nice with rather good IQ. But they can't replace a DSLR even if a few people here think so.
Well what you said was that since a NEX with a small lens is not going to be as good as a "good DSLR", so its about the same as carrying a cell phone. And thats what my response was about. Because I think thats a rather ridiculous notion Most who use mirror-less systems do it in addition to their DSLR systems because it gives them very good IQ in a small package. The IQ may not be as good as a "good DSLR" but is still significantly better than a P&S. It is a simple enough concept to understand - it may not be your cup of tea but that doesn't make it invalid. FF DSLRs are not the pinnacle of imaging excellence. They are just one particular compromise point among many possible ones. The mirror-less cameras are also another compromise point with slightly different trade-offs which makes them suitable for slightly different needs. There is no "good system", their is only a system which is appropriate for your needs.
p.8 #6 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Lars Johnsson wrote:
@ chez,
Yes I understand all that. But my reply & the included quote in the first place. It was to the person who wrote that his Nex 5 easily matches anything he could get from a DSLR.
In response to your comment that a NEX5n will have IQ lacking compared to a DSLR, I said a NEX5N can match the IQ of an APS-C DSLR. I don't see why that is so difficult to believe, there are many images out there that can attest to this.
I've owned mirrorless cameras, compact point shoots, APS-C DSLRs, full frame DSLRs, and 4x5 film cameras. These cameras all have different functionality, different advantages. They are all suited to different situations. Not all photographers need or want to cover all of these situations. And that's fine. The NEX is not better than any of these, but it does offer great portability without sacrificing image quality. It's just that simple.
No one has ever claimed that a NEX or any other mirrorless camera offers equal functionality to a DSLR or that it is the best camera choice in every scenario. If I am doing a commercial photoshoot I am going to use my 5dii. If I am going on a quick hike or out on the town I am going to take my NEX. It's just about convenience. I take the NEX when I don't need a DSLR because it is more convenient and it produces great images.
p.8 #7 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Lars Johnsson wrote:
But you are comparing the Photographers here. And not the equipment.
Which is exactly the point - the photographer's skill matters more than the equipment. Some here seem to think that having the top-of-the-line equipment is a requirement for taking great shots, whereas the top-of-the line equipment typically just makes the execution a bit more 'convenient'. The quality of the shot typically depends much more on factors other than the equipment.
She will get better photos with the FF DSLR if using both cameras.
Not necessarily. If say she needs to be discreet to be able to capture a particular shot then her x100 might provide her a better chance to get the shot then an ultra-compact 1DSIII with a tiny white L lens. Different tools are needed for different tasks.
p.8 #8 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
I'm curious what the mirrorless users here think of the built-in flashes. It seems to me the situations where you don't want to carry a DSLR tend to be the ones where you'd want a flash, at least for fill. And I'd have thought that means something with at least 2 AA batteries and capable of bounce. Adding that to the mirrorless kit tends to reduce its size advantage compared to something like a 5D. Or are you all "available light" hardliners?
It's true that the lack of a focal plane shutter reduces the battery power requirements somewhat for HSS.
p.8 #9 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
curious80 wrote:
I think you are kidding yourself by not understanding that a number of us are using these cameras in reality instead of just talking about them in some theoretical debates .
And yet you are taking part in this theoretical debate. Now who is kidding who?
Are you trying to tell me that I am just dreaming that I now take my camera to a lot more places then I did my DSLR?
Nope, I am just saying that the differences between a small DSLR and EVIL camera with lenses other than pancakes and alt glass is pretty small in practical terms. Both won't fit into a pocket.
And that there are so many more moments and scene that I am able to capture which I didn't in past?
So, you can take a DLSR as well.
And that I am enjoying photography more because I am less obsessed about gear and lenses and more focused on picture-making process?
Glad to hear you aren't obsessed about gear and lenses. Good for you
A number of us have just shared our thoughts about why we acquired such a system based on our specific needs. Your needs maybe different which is perfectly fine. But I think it would be a bit presumptuous for you to try and define what others may or may not need
Just like some of us have shared our thoughts on why such a system doesn't apply to our needs, purely based on the fact that marketing people want to make us believe we can fit it into our pockets. Your needs may be different and that is fine by me. But I think it would be a bit presumptuous for you to try and define what and others may or may not need. I know for sure I am not trying to do that. That would pretty pointless. As always... YMMV
p.8 #10 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
I have to agree with Daan here. Once coupled with a suitable lens, the actual difference between a DSLR and EVIL camera is not very significant. However, miniaturization, as what the Canon executive said, is definitely desirable for all cameras (unlike what those early Canon Rebel detractors will like us to believe)... Now, where is my FF NEX-like camera?
The combination is about 300g lighter than the 5DII body, and as you can see packs quite a punch. This is what excites me. IQ with smaller and lighter form. I look forward to the day I can give up my heavy camera backpack for a small light bag, without sacrificing too much IQ.
p.8 #14 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
thw2 wrote:
I have to agree with Daan here. Once coupled with a suitable lens, the actual difference between a DSLR and EVIL camera is not very significant
p.8 #17 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
thw2 wrote:
I have to agree with Daan here. Once coupled with a suitable lens, the actual difference between a DSLR and EVIL camera is not very significant. However, miniaturization, as what the Canon executive said, is definitely desirable for all cameras (unlike what those early Canon Rebel detractors will like us to believe)... Now, where is my FF NEX-like camera?
The difference might be small, but significant. My x100 fits into my jacket pocket. There is no DSLR with a pancake lens that will fit into my pocket. Thus I either have to lug around a case for the camera or hang it like a noose around my neck. For me, that is a big difference.
p.8 #18 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
SKumar25 wrote:
Here is a picture taken by Denoir with the lowly Nex c3 (with Leica 35 lux):
The combination is about 300g lighter than the 5DII body, and as you can see packs quite a punch. This is what excites me. IQ with smaller and lighter form. I look forward to the day I can give up my heavy camera backpack for a small light bag, without sacrificing too much IQ.
Funny... you can achieve similar image quality with a D Rebel camera. Much lighter weight and smaller than the 5D2 body too. Now, why is no one excited about the D Rebel camera? Just because it comes from a well established lineage? So it offers no excitement like a new and unknown toy?
p.8 #19 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
thw2 wrote:
Funny... you can achieve similar image quality with a D Rebel camera. Much lighter weight and smaller than the 5D2 body too. Now, why is no one excited about the D Rebel camera? Just because it comes from a well established lineage? So it offers no excitement like a new and unknown toy?
Maybe I don't understand the hype.
Does it fit into your pocket or briefcase. No. That is the excitement.
p.8 #20 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
chez wrote:
The difference might be small, but significant. My x100 fits into my jacket pocket. There is no DSLR with a pancake lens that will fit into my pocket. Thus I either have to lug around a case for the camera or hang it like a noose around my neck. For me, that is a big difference.
True but the X100 comes with a FIXED PRIME lens. The Canon G1X with its FIXED ZOOM lens is also extremely compact. DPReview says this about the G1X: "no other kit zoom for mirrorless systems comes close to this degree of compactness".
