p.3 #1 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Snopchenko wrote:
My wife has a NEX-3 kit for a year and carries it with her in her handbag. The image quality is awesome - better than my old 30D for sure, and I feel that it's limited more by the lack of good lenses (we only have a kit lens). Now she does not need a dedicated photographer when she's out on certain assignments (interviews). That means she doesn't get to use me all that often anymore but no big deal as the money stays in the family anyways.
Would she be carrying a DSLR with even a prime lens like that? I highly doubt that.
I tried carrying my 1D Mark II N with a "kit" lens all the time. It takes a large plastic bag (so as to not attract attention), and overall, doesn't work. Sometimes I've been lucky to catch something when I was carrying my setup with me, sometimes not. A couple of times I've been borrowing my wife's NEX but that's not sustainable. I've borrowed my aunt's P&S for one trip and it was only really decent at ISO 80-100. So a mirrorless body with a lens or two is probably in order. Probably a NEX-7 so that I'm able to share lenses with my wife....Show more →
Now you'll need to buy a man purse to tote such a rig!
p.3 #3 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
gdanmitchell wrote:
Your points about the Fuji have been made by others. Some absolutely love the form factor, the single focal length lens, the external controls... but there have been widespread acknowledgements that the menu system isn't so swell. (This is the sort of thing that I was alluding to when I made my comment in the previous paragraph about how these cameras will evolve.)
melcat replied:
Good user interfaces don't "evolve"...
Oh, they sure as heck do! Of course, as you point out, they begin by being designed, but I'm unable to think of an interface that is presently highly regarded that remained stuck in its initial form, and I can think of quite a few that evolved substantially over time.
If you know much about technology design, you are undoubtedly aware that initial design is often heavily affected by what engineers know how to do and believe that will work, tempered to a greater or lesser degree by user testing and so forth. And you also know that it isn't until the device/system gets out into the world and is used by end users that it faces the true test, at which point designers respond and modify and improve it. Menus are improved, knobs moved, switches added or eliminated, ergonomics changed, capabilities added or taken away.
This evolution is also driven, in a natural selection like manner, by responding to what other manufacturers do.
My point regarding the interface to the control systems of digital cameras - which was the point I was responding to relative to the Fuji camera - is essentially that designers have not yet figured out the most effective ways to provide access to control of features on these cameras. While we are getting better at understanding this for small p&s cameras (but they are still not easy for users to figure out beyond the obvious controls) and getting better with DSLRs (but dig down in the menu structure to find some specific feature sometime...), it is not at all obvious yet how to create "the right" interface on a camera that is small, simple in some ways, complex in others, and meant to work for both sophisticated and relatively unsophisticated users.
The interfaces for these cameras will most certainly continue to evolve and improve.
p.3 #4 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
thw2 wrote:
Gimme a nice FF NEX-type camera + small useful primes like 35 f/1.8, 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 lenses and I'm on. But such a product is not in the market yet...
p.3 #6 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
This thread is right up my alley. I have an aging but still totally adequate eos 10d, that takes incredibly satisfying images. For years I've been looking to upgrade, but never pulled the trigger. Thought seriously about a refurbe'd 60d, but have been intrigued by the new nex and 4/3 options. I only have one canon lens, a tamron 28-75, which I quite like - So I don't have a lot invested in canon at this point, if I'm going to switch, now is the time to do it. I really like the sensor on the nex 5n/7, and the out of camera jpeg quality of the Pen EP3. I really like the retro looks of the pen series also. The Pany's also seem to be great cameras. I guess I'm looking for something a bit less conspicuous than a full sized dslr.
My only gripe with the nex's are that I see some images that look to be a bit on the soft side, I also am a bit concerned with lens availability, although I understand these cameras work well with older legacy lenses.
The new fuji x pro 1, or whatever they are calling it, looks promising, but it's going to be very expensive. I've kind of narrowed it down to the nex 5n/7, the Pany GX1, and the ep-3. As soon as I think I've made my decision, I start thinking that I may regret not getting the 60d, .
All I know is it's a good time to be into photography.
Steve
mco_970 wrote:
I shot my T3i with alt lenses all last summer, and I also used the Canon 35/2 and 28/2.8 on it. It's a good setup. I ended up selling in in favor of the NEX, to get an even smaller portable kit for hiking, etc. I find the NEX is a bit less conspicuous than even a T3i for people photos - it looks like a point and shoot and people don't pay much attention to it. I can get away with more with the NEX.
I liked my T3i alot and don't have any complaints about it, just decided to rearrange my kit and off it went. It's definitely a bargain esp. if it saves you from going down the money sucking rabbit hole of alt lenses. I love the alt lenses, though, so it's part of the addiction/hobby for me. ...Show more →
p.3 #7 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Desmoface wrote:
...The new fuji x pro 1, or whatever they are calling it
Its official name is "FUJIFILM X-Pro 1". I write it as "Fujifilm X-Pro 1". I pronounce it as "fujifilm x-pro 1".
Jan 20, 2012 at 10:00 AM
edge100 Offline • • [X]
p.3 #8 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
The X100 has been a great complement to my DSLR kit.
For street photography, I greatly prefer the X100 to my 5D2 + 35L, simply because of the reduced size (35mm being my preferred FL for street). It's easy to carry with me in my shoulder bag, and with a wrist strap attached, is very portable when I'm focussed on shooting.
But for family or event photography, I'd never choose the X100; the AF is just far too slow, and the fixed 35mm FL too restrictive.
p.3 #11 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
thw2 wrote:
Too bad it's a range-finder equipped with a questionable CCD sensor and whose max ISO is ONLY 2500...
The M9 is a curious beast. It is on paper a thoroughly unimpressive camera. The maximum ISO is too low and it basically does terribly on all the DXO scores.
That said, its probably the camera I reach for the most often and its the camera whose files I like working with in post the most. Why? I have no idea.
As for the range finder focus, I'm finding I prefer it to MF with focus peaking on an EVF. For the record, I'm not some dinosaur who cut his teeth on rangefinders or filled with nostalgia. I used my first rangefinder about 2 years ago. I like working with a big OVF. I also have a NEX 5N with the EVF and as gorgeous as it is (and I prefer it to the tiny, dim OVFs of the entry level DSLRs) I still prefer to MF with the rangefinder because I feel like I can focus faster with it. Certainly the RF sucks with the longer lenses (and thats where the peaking and the EVF of the NEX 5N becomes really useful).
p.3 #13 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
thw2 wrote:
Too bad it's a range-finder equipped with a questionable CCD sensor and whose max ISO is ONLY 2500...
What's so questionable abt the sensor?
Jan 20, 2012 at 12:17 PM
Lars Johnsson Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #14 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
artd wrote:
I carry my NEX5n with me more than I carry my cell phone
(And have you ever tried to make a 16x24 print from a cell phone? The IQ is a bit lacking...)
The image quality from a NEX 5 with a lens so small it will have a good fit in your pocket, is also lacking compared to a good DSLR with a larger lens So it's about the same thing........
p.3 #15 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Lars Johnsson wrote:
The image quality from a NEX 5 with a lens so small it will have a good fit in your pocket, is also lacking compared to a good DSLR with a larger lens So it's about the same thing........
The IQ from a NEX 5n with a small high quality rangefinder lens is not lacking at all. It easily matches anything I could get from any APS-C sized DSLR.
Jan 20, 2012 at 01:27 PM
Lars Johnsson Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #16 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
artd wrote:
The IQ from a NEX 5n with a small high quality rangefinder lens is not lacking at all. It easily matches anything I could get from any APS-C sized DSLR.
But i didn't write APS-C You made that up.
So what setup matches a 7D with a 17 TS-E lens then ?
p.3 #17 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
I've always accepted these cameras as a compromise, it's like comparing a desktop computer to a laptop or a laptop to a smartphone. It's just a matter of being 'good enough' for what you do -- the micro four thirds with a portrait lens takes a decent enough portrait that I'm satisfied with it, when I need to be satisfied with it. If I don't need to be that mobile, I'll still use the Canon because it's less work during and after the shooting.
I don't know that they're aimed at the smartphone or P&S crowd really, more the 'bridge' camera or prosumer that is something between the now-vanishing P&S camera and the DSLR. Around 2003 when I got my Digital Rebel, there were a bunch of digital 'subcompacts' trying to fit into this market, I remember looking at a Sony that seemed like it was 'all lens' and sold for $1000., my dad had an Olympus DSLR, though one where the lens could not be changed; though most of these were misses and photos from these expensive 'toys' ended up little better than the most inexpensive point and shoots. As DSLRs become more common, and affordable, that became the gateway to quality for pretty much anyone who anted it. The prosumer segment pretty much died off other than a few rare models put out by Canon, Panasonic, etc.
And really, mirrorless or whatever you want to call them, they're far too pricey for common acceptance. I think the only people buying these things in significant number are the ones who like being mobile or discrete; I am seeing more of them, just not a lot; maybe 5% to 10% that of DSLRs (in some places) and basically zero in others.
p.3 #18 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
artd wrote:
Because it's nice to always have a camera with you, and it's also nice to not have to always carry a DSLR.
You can always have a camera with you. I fail to see why it has to fit inside a pocket. Plus go beyond the smaller EVIL cameras plus pancake and it won't even fit in a pocket.
p.3 #19 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Lars Johnsson wrote:
But i didn't write APS-C You made that up.
So what setup matches a 7D with a 17 TS-E lens then ?
You wrote "a good DSLR". So do you consider a DSLR good only if it is full frame? I hardly think that in the context of the conversation (and the OP referencing using an APS-C camera) that this is unreasonable to keep the comparisons to the same sized sensors
Now, I'm sure you know it's silly to think I mean that a NEX with a rangefinder lens is going to be the best camera to use in all circumstances. If that was the case I would not still own a DSLR! Obviously there is there no match for the 17mm TS-E lens on a NEX...and for that matter there is no match for it from any other manufacturer. (However, tilt/shift capabiolity aside, a Voitglander 15mm lens is not too shabby).
Again, the point is about having a small setup you can easily take with you everywhere all the time. My favorite lens on the NEX is a Contax G 28mm...I can slip the camera into my jacket pocket or the side pocket of my backpack, laptop case, whatever. And I am confident the IQ will be as good as a 7D with just about any 28mm lens. And much, much better than a cell phone
p.3 #20 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?
Daan B wrote:
You can always have a camera with you. I fail to see why it has to fit inside a pocket. Plus go beyond the smaller EVIL cameras plus pancake and it won't even fit in a pocket.
I doesn't have to. It just makes life easier.
Carrying a DSLR around all the time is a burden. I mean if I'm going out to dinner with my wife, or going to the movies, or going over to a friend's house, why do I want to take a DSLR with me? If I'm going out specifically to take photos, that's a different story. But if I'm just heading out of my house going about my daily life, I am not going to want to take a DSLR. I will, however, have no problem taking a camera in my pocket because every once in awhile I see something unexpected and I think wow that would make a good photo. Previous to having my NEX, I did not have a camera with me 98% of the time.
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