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Archive 2012 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #1 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


akin_t wrote:
Well, I just wanted to have a discussion about why most landscapes that leave an impression (on me at least) seem to have a Wide field of view (about 10mm on 1.6x or 16mm on Full Frame)

I know there are landscapes taken with telephotos and normal lenses, but usually, the landscapes taken with a Wide field of view just leave a different impression.

I've really been limiting myself to only shooting with my Wide-Angle ... I just wanted to know if anyone shoots landscapes with a normal lens?

You see, I shoot a 7D and I would like to sell my 10-22mm
...Show more

I haven't read the entire thread, but it is certainly not the case that landscape is mostly done with wide angle lenses. There is a type of landscape shot (I call it the "near-far" composition) that became quite well known a few decades ago - typically a dramatic photo that includes something very close (a plant, a rock, a flower) and something more distant (a mountain, a sky, etc.).

But that is just one approach out of many possible ways to shoot landscape. You might be surprised to find that many landscape photographers prefer to use normal to long lenses. In fact, a good number of fairly well-known folks who shoot Canon count their 70-200 (typically the f/4 version) as one of their favorite landscape lenses.

Long lenses are especially useful for several purposes in landscape and nature. They let you eliminate elements from the scene and focus on one or a small number of elements instead of doing the "cram everything in" composition. They let you shoot certain nature subjects from a bit further back - for example plants and trees. They can allow one to reduce the number of elements in the background. They compress distance with the effect of seeming to fill the frame with subjects that are perhaps not close together.

I just returned from the better part of a week shooting in Death Valley. Although I carried focal lengths from 17mm to 400mm, on this trip I barely shot anything with focal lengths shorter than 50mm. (The exceptions included some old buildings, IIRC.) My 70-200 and 100-400 got quite a bit of use.

Dan



Jan 07, 2012 at 12:41 AM
ucphotog
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p.2 #2 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


I love the various threads here where people show their latest work. It is a great way to learn either via comments or from the photos. And I am not even vaguely suggesting that should stop. I have tossed a few photos up here and learned via comments from the folks kind enough to give me their time, and I have learned by looking at other people's photos.

However, as I was reading along, I really liked this thread as a discussion of ideas rather than simple presentation of photos and response. I am hard pressed to find words, but perhaps while I liked this thread is that there were lots of ideas pouring in on a concept rather than a specific photo.

I have wrestled with this subject a lot, though perhaps in reverse from the OP. I never could find a use for wide lenses. I lived a long time thinking 24mm on a crop sensor (about 36mm FF equivalent) was "wide".

My thanks to the various contributors. Very informative thread.



Jan 07, 2012 at 02:04 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #3 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


Charlie Shugart wrote:
Here is perhaps a slightly different look at your basic question (not that I think it's the only valid view- I don't):
Over the last two generations the US has become an "attention-seeking" society. It manifests itself almost everywhere in our daily lives, our entertainment industries, etc.
When I was young, almost all quality scenic photographers worked hard at depicting the world as it was... creatively, but virtually without noticeable distortions of the truth. Their thinking seemed to be: if you can't get excited by the world as it is, well.... ?
Nowadays- especially in the world of digital cameras and computer
...Show more

Important issues, Charlie. I partially agree and partially disagree with your basic premise here.

I do agree that there has been, at least among some photographers, a trend toward rather extreme adjustments to certain types of landscape images. This is probably because the kinds of adjustments that we do to color images with digital post-processing techniques are so much easier than the equivalent adjustments were with film. This is also affected, I think, by the desire to get attention quickly in an online work in which most images are only glanced at quickly, seen in relatively small sizes, and often presented within a rush of competing images. And some of the loudest voices on the web (who I have seen referred to, somewhat oddly, as "internet photography celebrities!") have been pretty successful at catering to this strange new world - which sometimes seems to be less about photograph than about popularity and the person presenting the photographs and the stories behind them.

But...

To suggest that film photographers presented the world as it is without distortions is just not true. I think that we sometime confuse what is familiar to us with "real," but the two are certainly not the same. People will often say that the older black and white film photographers (let's use Ansel Adams, though others would also suffice) showed the world as it is and focused on reproducing reality and avoided altering it in fundamental ways. I'm afraid that it isn't that simple. Not even close.

First, to state the obvious, the world is not black and white. What could be more unreal than presenting images of the world that have been completely drained of color! I am by no means denigrating black and white photography or those who produced and continue to produce astonishing work in that medium, but anyone who holds it up as an older and more realistic form of image making is certainly guilty of overlooking the obvious.

But beyond that, black and white photographers, especially those shooting large format cameras, engaged in many effective and creative and beautiful manipulations of the original scene in order to bring us the photographic prints that we treasure. A range of focal lengths were chosen. Filters were often used to alter the tonal characteristics of the image, sometimes radically. The cameras used tilts, swings, and shifts to alter "perspective" and manipulate focus.

And the work done in camera was by no means the end of the story. The darkroom was and is a veritable laboratory for manipulation. Choices regarding developing methods (of film and print) had a big impact on the quality of the image, as did film and paper choices. Dodging and burning were (and are) often extensive. To go back to Adams, some of his most famous images were extensively modified in post. There are many examples, but I have two favorites. "Moonrise, Hernandez..." is arguably his most famous photograph. Did you know that with a bit of searching that you can find the contact print online? (Look here: http://www.laurenhenkinblog.com/2010/09/the-interpretive-print/moonrisebefore/) If you have seen the print, you should be stunned by the difference. In many of the beautiful later prints the sky has been burned down to near black, clouds have gone missing, and much additional detail appears in the foreground. The beauty of that print was most certainly not created by simply capturing the reality of the scene - whatever that even means.

Another favorite example is the famous photograph Adams shot from Lone Pine, with Mt. Whitney far above and a horse in the foreground caught in a momentary bit of light. I can't find the reference right now, but Michael Frye wrote an article explaining how Adams had altered the image to remove the large letters "LP" (for "Lone Pine") that appear on the hillside to the left side of the image, letters that had apparently been placed there by the local high school students. (The letters are still there today.)

When it comes to color... one word: "Velvia." :-)

One last thing. To make a bad pun, the issue is not exactly "black and white." (Hey, I warned you that was coming!) I also am generally not pleased by photography that tries to amp up the world well beyond what it actually looks like rather than taking the time to search out things that are innately appealing and beautiful to photograph. Among the work out there that is popular, there is a subset that relies on peddling impossibilities as if they were real. This level of dishonesty sometimes disgusts me, and I often don't know quite what to say to people who regard it as great work. (By the way, I don't have anything at all against photographic images that are highly modified if the modification is the point of the image - I actually like some extremely modern and experimental stuff, but that is a very different sort of thing.) On the other hand... in order to get from the real subject that you see in front of you when you click the shutter to the printed image that you might have in mind when you do so, you must often actually plan the methods you will use to get the print to have that appearance, and to evoke the feelings and responses you had in mind at the time.

Hope all of those words make some sense.

Dan



Jan 07, 2012 at 12:04 PM
denovo2k1
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p.2 #4 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


I certainly agree with many of the above comments and just want to add that I use 18mm on a crop body all the time to get the WA (well borderline WA) for certain shots and in many ways I use this lens due to the advantages this lens has due to its focal length.
1. By being wider it allows more light in and so in low light conditions it is easier to get an exposure at either the aperature or SS that you NEED..it jsut isn't as zoomed in on your subject.
2. When I want a close-up of an object, but want to still show the subject in its surroundings.

On the other hand....I do use my 150-500 APO glass all the time for landscapes in the 400mm-500mm range...hey who wants to get out of the car sometimes and go ask permission to take a pic of something when you can get really nice bokeh at F5 @ 400mm and stay in the car when its 10 degrees outside and the shot works better anyways (many times). hahahaha

Good comment thread and thanks to all for sharing!



Jan 07, 2012 at 08:54 PM
dswiger
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p.2 #5 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


What a timely thread.
I just bought a Samyang 14mm/2.8 off of Craigs List!
Killer sharp & the lens profile in CS5 cleans up the distortion.

I wanted something at the wide end.
I use a lot of different focal lengths for landscape.
I usually live in the 24-50 range, but occasionally go to 200+
I am staring to use primes.
This one is just another tool.

Dan





Jan 08, 2012 at 01:24 AM
alichty
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p.2 #6 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


I honestly use my 17-40mm lens the least of any I carry. Now I do have a full frame camera body (5D Mk II) so my 24mm lenses (24mm TS-E and 24-70mm zoom) have as wide a frame as a 17mm on a crop sensor so YMMV. When I need a shot to be wider I prefer to use a pano approach instead of using my WA lens given a lot less distortion in the glass and the final result. My favorite lens for panos anymore is the 24TS-E using the shift for the images - this approach almost eliminates barrel distortion like what I get with the 17-40mm. I get a lot of mileage out of shooting landscapes with a 100-400mm and I have been known to make panos out of vertical frames shot from that too.

For the record I never did color inside of the lines as a kid and still don't

Alan



Jan 08, 2012 at 07:24 PM
SharonVL
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p.2 #7 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


I keep the 24-70 on my 5D2 most of the time and use the full range of the zoom. I will occasionally use the 16-35 buy much prefer the 24-70. Whatever suits my eye when shooting.

Sharon



Jan 08, 2012 at 08:32 PM
ckcarr
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p.2 #8 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


I think all of us go through various stages in our landscape photography. Partly due to each's geographic location, and also their own changing tastes in composition. I used to only shoot with my D80 and Sigma 10-20mm. Then it evolved through mid range lenses like the 17-55mm and the 24-70mm, to many shots composed with a 70-200mm. Now I'm using tilt-shift lenses almost exclusively in 24mm, 45mm and once in a while with the 85mm (although I still lug the others with). There's no hard and fast rule for focal lengths, more a learning curve. Not sure I'd sell one lens that may be useful to get another, just buy a bigger camera bag.


Jan 08, 2012 at 09:12 PM
Fo Tollery
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p.2 #9 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


akin_t wrote:
Am I being too short sighted in believing I can only shoot decent landscapes with my 10-22mm and not my 17-55mm?

I'm not too good at it, so perhaps you can give me some tips on how to compose differently ... Currently I stick to the basics (find a vanishing point, compose to rule of thirds, etc).


Lots of good theoretical and practical discussion in this thread, and hopefully you'll find much of it useful.

I'll offer what I think is a bit different perspective. From the way you've worded your original post, I have the sense your true dilemma lies in what it is you desire to capture in your images rather than in the selection of lens. If you 'know' how you wish to capture a scene, then selecting the appropriate lens really shouldn't be any more difficult than selecting the appropriate shutter speed or aperture.

I hope that doesn't come off as 'snarky'...it's certainly not meant to be.



Jan 08, 2012 at 09:51 PM
bshamilton
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p.2 #10 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


Some interesting reading right now on FM!! Very informative and thought provoking.

I use every lens in my kit, from the 17-40 to the 100-400, with the 24-105 getting most of the work. Great range for a landscape lens!
I seldom go on a shoot with specifically wide or long in mind, but let the scenes dictate what to use. I used to try to take in the whole enchilada, and still do, often, but have learned, by watching and seeing others work, to also look for the 'small scene' within the 'big scene'.
If you've seen any of my cypress swamp shots, you may remember that I seldom use wide angle lenses there because of all the interfering brush, and most of the good shots have been with the longer lenses, just to get past all the junk.
Bottom line.....whatever it takes.

Barry



Jan 10, 2012 at 08:39 PM
Mark Metternich
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p.2 #11 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


As much as I am an ultra wide angle geek (I love the 14mm L2 on the full frame 5DMark2) I like med range too. Get both! One huge benefit to the wide angle is the feeling like one can walk right into the scene. Also, you can shoot at f/stops near or at your sharpest (like 5.6 for the 14mmL2 and the 16-35L2) and still get incredible depth is field!


Jan 11, 2012 at 02:29 AM
L.J.G.
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p.2 #12 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


kwalsh wrote:
The curse of the UWA - "they looked so big when I was there, what went wrong with my picture?"

Both UWA and telephoto cause perspective distortion which can have a positive visual effect when carefully used in composition. Often with WA it can help lead the eye through the composition when done "right". When done wrong, when the photographer just tries to "vacuum up" the view, it underwhelms.

Years ago I tended to shoot WA almost exclusively and my images suffered as a result. I didn't really have a clue as to what I was doing and just thought landscape
...Show more


I agree with Ken here. When I had my 50D I purchased a 10-22 and thought I had achieved the pinnacle of landscape lenses for a crop body. I soon learned what Ken says, everything looked small and insignificant in the wide open spaces. It was very hard to create an interesting or arresting shot unless things were quite close. So as my photography developed I found I used it less and less. In the end it was relegated to urban activities and only when I wanted to get a complete building or particular close country scene (like Mabry Mill, or an old house) into the view.

Now I have a 5DII I still have a wide angle (17-40) but again, it is my least used lens and still only makes it out of my bag in urban areas. I mainly use my 24-105 or 50 but also try to defer to my 70-200 whenever I can. The great IQ makes it a far better option for great detail and clarity. I think too many of us get pulled into the hype that you must have a UWA lens if you want to shoot "great" landscapes, but quite often nothing is further from the truth.



Jan 11, 2012 at 04:54 PM
kevindar
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p.2 #13 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


I use primarily my ultrawides for landscape, mostly my 16-35, and fell like 18, 21, 24, and 35mm give me very good results. a well done ultrawide for me pulls you in to the image, where as a normal/telephoto one, gives you a spectator feel. but thats for me.


Jan 11, 2012 at 05:54 PM
Taoguy
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p.2 #14 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


Very informative discussion. Thanks Dan Mitchell for bringing up A. Adams's expertise in the darkroom. There are many that believe he was a purist in every sense of the word. He was a Master behind the camera and in the darkroom.
A good discussion by all. The past few pages should be worth at least 2 or 3 credits for anyone still in school.

Gerard



Jan 11, 2012 at 07:30 PM
wbrad
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p.2 #15 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


One of the things I like most about ultra wides is the way they can capture big, dramatic skies. And while they do render distant objects tiny in the frame, this is not always a bad thing, it depends on how you compose the picture taking this limitation into account. The distortion of depth you get with a wide can be great for emphasizing the feel of a wide open space, while placing an object in the very near foreground creates great depth. This 'big foreground, big sky' look may not be for everyone, but I still get a kick out of it.
While I find myself using longer focal lengths more and more, I will never be caught without my ultra wide. Many of my favourite shots would have been impossible without one.

Wayne



Jan 11, 2012 at 08:03 PM
roman.johnston
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p.2 #16 · Landscape and Wide-Angle ... Why do they two often go hand in hand?


Perspective is drama, that is my reason for loving and almost exclusivly my superwide (12-24) and right after that my 24-70. I do carry a 70-200 for when I do need legnth. Nothing tells the story of a landscape like drama. And as far as distortion, learn how it works and work with it....it just adds to the drama.

Roman



Jan 11, 2012 at 11:09 PM
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