On the whole AF issue with the X cameras I am not sure of how big a deal it is. For the most part/time it is workable. My X10 hunts a little, fails a little, more so than any other AF camera I had in the past decade. But it "works". The AF cluster is useful and will probably be the same in the X Pro 1. An X100 I tried indoors in subdued - but not really low - light failed AF on numerous attempts, despite looking for contrasty areas to lock and recompose on. It was like trying the old Nikon F501 which I had back in 1987.
It all boils down to a couple points though. For a premium mirrorless system camera with a body price at $1700 you don't expect sub par AF, a sluggish AF that hunts or fails to lock in low light - especially given the fact it is supposed to be a great high ISO camera. At $900 the camera would be more attractive and the lower price would perhaps allow for a more generous take on the AF that seems to be clearly behind the competition.
And if you are given this sub par AF you don't want the optional remedy of a iffy fly-by-wire Manual Focus on the lenses. And if you have your Manual Focus only lenses you want some kind of focus assist. Otherwise you are screwed for precision focusing.
And if the AF points aren't accurate, that will be very annoying for portraits. Focus, hunt, miss, compensate with MF by wire, but with no peaking/focus assist. Wow, that is so obsolete I think they chiseled the AF system out in a cave somewhere by candle light.
At this point and according to specs, and initial tests - and not rumors - the Fuji X Pro 1 fails in all above aspects. In fail, I mean it is sub par and behind what is already there on the market at a lower price with better performance. And that is, IMHO, a fail.
Add to that the poorest battery life in class - according to Fuji's own specs.
As for the sensor catering to wide angle legacy glass, we'll have to see if there will be an universal sigh of relief and much rejoice or if there will be one of those "I told you so, moments." People "assume" that Fuji will have thought of that factor and have gone to extra lengths to tweak the sensor but there is no written evidence for that, despite lengthy Fuji explanations on the technology in the camera as such, including the sensor. There is rather evidence to the contrary, that the new wide lenses are designed for the sensor and not the other way around. What about the old wide angle lenses that were designed for film? From a company that decided NOT to include MF assist/peaking in the camera I would be surprised to see that they care enough to tweak the sensor other than combat in pre set software corrections. But smear might still happen, and they can't combat that in post. Already the 18/2 seems weaker into the corners with possible softening that "could be" sensor related, and this on a lens that is designed for the sensor.
The X Pro 1 will be a graceful failure though. All but the 18mm lenses seem like really solid performers, the sensor seems to be very capable and the camera itself is a beauty. The lens road map is right up my alley and that's why I am so disappointed by initial reports and findings and Fuji release.
Also, if Fuji magically makes the 14/1.4 a solid performer that might swing a few legacy glass owners over and forget about MF. That is exciting news. They'd have to pull the whole kit out of the bag to make that sing, if they can't even make an 18/2 that carries a tune.
On the whole I am positively skeptic.
(PS I'll be back after my morning coffee, I'll be much nicer then. )
kosmoskatten wrote:
An X100 I tried indoors in subdued - but not really low - light failed AF on numerous attempts, despite looking for contrasty areas to lock and recompose on.
Spyro, I have no idea, it must have been the old one since it was a while back and it was quite bad at the time. I tested one with the new firmware in my own apartment so I know the environment and it did better but still had trouble with some objects and could not lock on to a brown/grey wall (which all other cameras I have had have managed to lock on to). So, I had to find something else to lock on AF to. My Fuji X10 has the same problem, in a nut shell, but does better for close range focusing.
The same was true with my A12/50 module for the GXR, it was substantially improved by firmware update, maybe Fuji can tweak theirs a bit more?
Interesting thoughts. At first the Fuji seemed like a no brainer but after the second (third, etc.) take I think we'd need to take it with a grain of salt. Pity there's no photo shows or fairs around here until October...
(PS I'll be back after my morning coffee, I'll be much nicer then. )
kosmoskatten wrote:
Spyro, I have no idea, it must have been the old one since it was a while back and it was quite bad at the time. I tested one with the new firmware in my own apartment so I know the environment and it did better but still had trouble with some objects and could not lock on to a brown/grey wall (which all other cameras I have had have managed to lock on to). So, I had to find something else to lock on AF to. My Fuji X10 has the same problem, in a nut shell, but does better for close range focusing.
The same was true with my A12/50 module for the GXR, it was substantially improved by firmware update, maybe Fuji can tweak theirs a bit more? ...Show more →
Broken record...skip, skip, skip...but when I loaded the 1.11 firmware into the first X100 I owned (I have actually tested three now- long story- but all performed the same), I was able to accurately lock onto pretty much anything around my office at night under tungsten lighting from distances of around three feet and further. The exposures were mostly at ISO 1600, F2 and 1/40-1/60sec. That's something the pre 1.11 firmware X100 could not do.
It still seems awful early and I want to wait for multiple users to report on production copies of the camera and lens, but my summary would be as follows.
Viewfinder - the OVF ought to work reasonably well for wide angle through the 35mm, but will have only small magnification for anything longer. The EVF is lower resolution and may be a bit laggy. It will allow you to accurate check composition and exposure, and it will have magnification to aid manual focus (and IMO magnification is by far the most important aid to manual focus).
AF - It seems that Tariq and Spryo are suggesting that with the new firmware the AF will be reasonably reliable. For now they have persuaded me this will be ok. If it is as reliable as my 5D MKI, which is far from perfect, that would be fine with me. It will be noticeably slower than the better m4/3rds cameras, and probably worse than the NEX cameras too.
MF - the Fuji lenses will all be focus by wire which is a bit disappointing to me, but not the end of the world. The low res EVF will be less than optimal as well. It does have magnification, however, and using live view on the LCD from a tripod should work well too.
Lens line up - I love the choices Fuji has made for lenses. They make a lot of sense for me. The 35/1.4 looks like a great fast normal, and the 60/2.4 looks like a very strong short tele macro. Early reports suggest the 18/2 might not be as good as one would like, but it is very early. Personally, I would be fine with soft corners as long as they sharpen up by f/5.6 or even f/8, and it is reasonably sharp in the centre from f/2. Having f/2 is a bonus as no other small camera has f/2 at a 28mm equivalent and only a handful of mostly quite expensive lenses are available for full frame at f/2 or faster.
Sensor - so far so good. It looks like a very nice sensor with high enough resolution, great colours, and very good high ISO performance. It should work well with Fuji wide angle lenses (one of which is already in production and a second one that has been announced). We still don't know if it will work well with range finder lenses, but there is reason for hope and reason for concern.
Ergonomics - I really like the controls of the camera and for me (I have very large hands) I find the size very nice. A range finder size can work for me, but going smaller really ends up cramping my hands.
So where does that leave me? I am still quite interested. I think the AF will be tolerable, but I doubt I will use it much. It would be nice to have it there, however. I think MF will be fine with the EVF as I can totally live with just magnification as my only focus aid. Do I wish the EVF were higher resolution? Yes. Do I wish the OVF had better magnification for long lenses? Yes. The combination of having both an OVF and an EVF, however, for me is a very nice combo that is available in no other camera. I could get a camera with a better OVF (i.e., a Leica M8) for not much more money, but without an EVF I am pretty sure I would have quite a bit of trouble focussing even short tele's with the rangefinder and I would have to deal with parallax. I could also get a camera with a better EVF (i.e., a NEX 7), but I really like composing at least initially with the OVF and I think I would miss that a lot. So although not perfect I think I will like the viewfinder better on this camera than any other one that is available. It is still early, however, and I sure others will have other points of view. I also want to hear a lot more about the sensor and lenses than we know yet. I won't be an early adopter, but by next Fall I suspect this will all be sorted out and I will get either this camera or something else.
If you're using manual lenses, I think the OVF on this camera is a bit vestigial. FWIW, Steve, I use focus peaking on NEX much more than I use magnification. It's just so much faster. If you're using manual lenses, you could always stick on optical OVF in the Nex-7's hotshoe, so that you have both options.
Agree with Douglas: putting an optical finder on top of a NEX-7 or GXR is a great solution for someone that wants both although you can't have the EVF and optical at the same time without some creative duct tape work.
I wonder if its the presence of a built in finder - hybrid OVF/EVF or not - that helps attract people to the X100 / XPro 1? Once upon a time that would have been me -- I bought the X100 in part due to the trimmer lines it had with the built-in finder. Having decided a fixed lens compact wasn't really my thing, I wanted to buy a NEX-7 over a 5N+EVF for much the same reasons, at least before it became clear that the NEX-7 would abuse my rangefinder wides. But a funny thing happened on the way to the park - the external EVF on the 5N sold me on external finders being a completely viable solution with their own advantages, in particular the tilt feature many EVFs seem to have.
On focus - definitely Fujifilm needs to bring out some other focus aide in addition to simple magnification. In my own experience I found the magnification on the X100 was fuzzy enough to make tuning of the X100's focus... less than easy. If the EVF in the XPro 1 does turn out to be the very same technology as the X100 as is suspected, I have real concerns about using manual focus lenses primarily on that camera, that is unless they bring out more / better focus aides.
Steve Spencer wrote:
AF - It seems that Tariq and Spryo are suggesting that with the new firmware the AF will be reasonably reliable. For now they have persuaded me this will be ok. If it is as reliable as my 5D MKI, which is far from perfect, that would be fine with me. It will be noticeably slower than the better m4/3rds cameras, and probably worse than the NEX cameras too.
Steve, I don't want to give you too rosy an impression about the Fuji AF. I sort of doubt it will be at the level of even a 5D, mostly due to the technology of contrast AF vs phase detect AF. What seems to trip the Fuji AF up the most is if there is a bright, contrasty area behind what your trying to focus on. This happened with the NEX-5 I owned as well but this situation does not trick the DSLR's I have used.
Jan 19, 2012 at 01:00 PM
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douglasf13 wrote:
If you're using manual lenses, I think the OVF on this camera is a bit vestigial. FWIW, Steve, I use focus peaking on NEX much more than I use magnification. It's just so much faster. If you're using manual lenses, you could always stick on optical OVF in the Nex-7's hotshoe, so that you have both options.
Thanks Douglas. Those are interesting points. I will have to try focus peaking to see how much I like it. For most of my shooting I care a lot more about precision than speed of focussing and magnification seems better for precision than peeking, but maybe I am missing something. Do you find peeking allows you more precision than magnification? I think having to switch the physical location I am looking through would ruin the use of an OVF for me, but I suspect you could guess that wouldn't be the best solution. I do appreciate the suggestion, however.
Jan 19, 2012 at 01:01 PM
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FlyPenFly wrote:
If you think the AF will be as reliable as the 5D, I think that's a bit optimistic to say the least.
That is interesting. I find the 5D hunts a lot in low light, but then I just manual focus. In what ways--other than handling movement much better, which the 5D's AF will obviously do better--do you think the 5D would be better?
Jan 19, 2012 at 01:05 PM
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michaelwatkins wrote:
Agree with Douglas: putting an optical finder on top of a NEX-7 or GXR is a great solution for someone that wants both although you can't have the EVF and optical at the same time without some creative duct tape work.
I wonder if its the presence of a built in finder - hybrid OVF/EVF or not - that helps attract people to the X100 / XPro 1? Once upon a time that would have been me -- I bought the X100 in part due to the trimmer lines it had with the built-in finder. Having decided a fixed lens compact wasn't really my thing, I wanted to buy a NEX-7 over a 5N+EVF for much the same reasons, at least before it became clear that the NEX-7 would abuse my rangefinder wides. But a funny thing happened on the way to the park - the external EVF on the 5N sold me on external finders being a completely viable solution with their own advantages, in particular the tilt feature many EVFs seem to have.
On focus - definitely Fujifilm needs to bring out some other focus aide in addition to simple magnification. In my own experience I found the magnification on the X100 was fuzzy enough to make tuning of the X100's focus... less than easy. If the EVF in the XPro 1 does turn out to be the very same technology as the X100 as is suspected, I have real concerns about using manual focus lenses primarily on that camera, that is unless they bring out more / better focus aides....Show more →
Interesting points Michael. You are right that the presence of a built in finder on the left side of the camera attracts me. I like that set up. In what ways was the EVF fuzzy on the X100 and what levels of magnification does it have? I have a Canon 50D that has a pretty low res LCD and 5X magnification let's me focus consistently accurately. I don't like 10X as much. I know an LCD is not the same an EVF, but this experience has led me to believe that an EVF wouldn't have to be that great to get good focus. I have had no problems focussing this way even in low light stopped down when the screen gets uprezzed and is pretty grainy. So, I am interested about what makes an EVF harder to focus on if it is.
Jan 19, 2012 at 01:12 PM
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Tariq Gibran wrote:
Steve, I don't want to give you too rosy an impression about the Fuji AF. I sort of doubt it will be at the level of even a 5D, mostly due to the technology of contrast AF vs phase detect AF. What seems to trip the Fuji AF up the most is if there is a bright, contrasty area behind what your trying to focus on. This happened with the NEX-5 I owned as well but this situation does not trick the DSLR's I have used.
Thanks Tariq. That makes a lot of sense. I would expect contrast detect AF to be bad is such a situation and that is also the situation in which exposure is often fooled as well. I would definitely want to switch to the EVF there and would be happy with manual focus. The 5D does do pretty well with AF there, but exposure compensation is just a guess. With the live histogram getting the exposure right would be easier with the Fuji even if the AF was more tricky. I would probably use manual focus though with either camera.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Thanks Tariq. That makes a lot of sense. I would expect contrast detect AF to be bad is such a situation and that is also the situation in which exposure is often fooled as well. I would definitely want to switch to the EVF there and would be happy with manual focus. The 5D does do pretty well with AF there, but exposure compensation is just a guess. With the live histogram getting the exposure right would be easier with the Fuji even if the AF was more tricky. I would probably use manual focus though with either camera.
With manual focus lenses and EVF, I doubt you would have any problems. I find the X100 EVF magnification to be very good at judging accurate focus for instance.
On a side note, I was looking at NEX-7 reviews posted to B&H today. There are not many but at least one mentioned selling the camera due to poor AF (capturing kids in action). All of these compact cameras that use contrast AF are cool but none are currently able to deal with this sort of situation. Honestly, MF+skill is the only solution for action.
Steve, my problems with manual focus on the X100 - a camera that was never designed to be manual focus - might not be the same on the XPro 1.
In a nutshell I found that while using the EVF the resolution wasn't fine enough for me to reliably and quickly (quickly enough...) gain focus. I rarely put the X100 on a tripod though; in that situation perhaps I could have muddled through with more success.
I tended not to use the rear view display for focus or composition. Maybe I should have, but the very presence of an auto-eye detect built in OVF/EVF encourages its use.
The other reason I tended not to use the rear view display is that I'm somewhat farsighted so I appreciate and used the viewfinder diopter adjustment on the X100 (which doesn't exist on the XPro 1... you need to purchase third party lenses held in by the screw in VF eyecup).
Could the rear LCD panel had been better for manual focus tuning for me? Maybe.
In contrast the EVF on the NEX and GXR have sufficient resolution and clarity that I could use magnification only to focus, but prefer to use focus peaking / focus assist mode 2 (NEX/GXR terminology), with or without magnification. I can nail focus on eyelashes easy enough at f/2 with either camera.
The technology isn't for everyone but those who like it, really like it. Unless something better comes along for manual focus lenses, chances are very high that I won't in the future buy a camera without some form of focus peaking / assist.
If you are content to wait then you really are in the driver's seat. Check out the camera first hand, hopefully with one or more lenses you'll be using. While you are waiting you might try to test out a NEX or GXR just to see what focus peaking / focus assist looks like. Just leave your wallet at home and it'll cost you nothing!
Steve Spencer wrote:
That is interesting. I find the 5D hunts a lot in low light, but then I just manual focus. In what ways--other than handling movement much better, which the 5D's AF will obviously do better--do you think the 5D would be better?
The X10 will be lucky if it's AF is as good as a decent compact. I would have been more than happy if my X100 worked as well as my Panasonic LX3 did.
It's not going to come anywhere close to a 5D or pretty much any DSLR ever.
I would love to eat my words but I expect nothing but firmware problems and AF troubles from launch. Is anyone seriously expecting the X10 to have better AF than even a Nikon D40 or D50 or D100?
I love Fuji's ideas, I love Fuji's build quality and their design. But I can't stand the immature firmware they release with, they need to revamp that team.
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