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Archive 2012 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens

  
 
carstenw
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p.52 #1 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


I don't think Fuji ever released Nikon mount lenses.

My guess why the S2/S3/S5 Pro didn't ultimately succeed was that the sensor was just 6MP, and the images a bit soft, at a time when the MP race was still going at full speed. The rumour says that Nikon would only let Fuji use the D200 body for the 6MP sensor, not the rumoured 10-12MP next-gen sensor, which is why the S5 Pro had the same sensor again.



Jan 13, 2012 at 11:27 AM
h00ligan
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p.52 #2 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


It could have the iq of m9 and Leica glass at 1/3 the price, but if af is is sow AND mf is like it was on the x100, I doubt I'd get it.

I'm really hoping the af glitches we saw will be worked out ore release and that they have been smarter about their non macro manual fly by wire...

I suppose for a landscape camera maybe, but I don't think it's going to be any better than a nex with alt glass at that point, and a lot more expensive.



Jan 13, 2012 at 11:29 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #3 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


michaelwatkins wrote:
Pricing has little bearing on my assertion. Fujifilm will price both components such that they stand on their own from a profit perspective.

I don't see alt-glass replacing sales of AF lenses for this or any camera. There is evidence of this with Sony. Despite the popularity of the NEX as an alt-glass platform, their AF lenses regularly go out of stock. They are still going to sell a pile of Zeiss 24mm lenses, along with 50's and 16's and the zooms and whatever else comes down the road. But Sony also gained, by happy accident, access to a slice
...Show more

I don't really understand a lot of your logic unless you have some inside stats. For instance, if Sony lenses routinely go out of stock, that really means little unless we know how many they are making and selling, right? A lot of production was stopped due to the floods so that could explain an out of stock AND low availability scenario. Anyway, unless we have inside info on such things, I don't see how any conclusions can be made. Same with your first assertion "Fujifilm will price both components such that they stand on their own from a profit perspective." How do you know? Not all companies do that, even camera makers. Sony has been known to even sell at a loss in order to gain market share for instance. Thus, unless you know the internal marketing of company "x", such a blanket statement is baseless. Sony is benefiting form their open system right now - and gaining market share. What we don't know is exactly how profitable they are. Given that they have announced a whopping 30% price increase on their cameras in Hong Kong, how far behind will a price increase be for the rest of the world? Sony, nor any company, can afford to buy market share (selling near or below cost) forever. I do think though that Fuji will toss a few bones to the alt enthusiast crowd, particularly current M mount users. That would likely pay off for them.



Jan 13, 2012 at 11:33 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #4 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


carstenw wrote:
I don't think Fuji ever released Nikon mount lenses.

My guess why the S2/S3/S5 Pro didn't ultimately succeed was that the sensor was just 6MP, and the images a bit soft, at a time when the MP race was still going at full speed. The rumour says that Nikon would only let Fuji use the D200 body for the 6MP sensor, not the rumoured 10-12MP next-gen sensor, which is why the S5 Pro had the same sensor again.


Probably a combination of factors, one likely being that the development cost to keep up in the MP race (accelerated R&D/ sensor schedule) would mean that Fuji might not have thought they could continue just buying Nikon bodies for resale AND be able to price the product at a price that: A) the market would be willing to pay and B) they could make enough profit from.



Jan 13, 2012 at 11:44 AM
sebboh
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p.52 #5 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


Spyro P. wrote:
Many many moons, and when it does happen it will probably be by accident.
In the meantime they will try every trick in the book to convince us that:

-36X24 is so extremely overrated and doesn't really mean anything.


it doesn't mean anything, it's just that there are a bunch of really awesome lenses designed for that size

Spyro P. wrote:
-Sticking your eye against a tiny television and squinting at grainy pixels from point blank is as good as an optical VF. What's that? A migraine? Must be you need new spectacles.


the tv is still better than an optical viewfinder that doesn't show you anything about focus. in fact that new sony evf is nicer than most of the crappy optical finders on dslrs these days.

Spyro P. wrote:
-Actually no VF at all is also a very good option, why are we beeing so stuck to the past?


waist level finders are nice too. whether they be optical or little tvs.

Spyro P. wrote:
-medium format rangefinders never really existed, it was an illusion. You can forget about them now because they never had a reason of existence. Same for pocket full frame cameras, and active infrared focusing, and large format and and and....


fraid so, just because of cost.

Spyro P. wrote:
-Cameras that are designed exclusively for manual focus are for weirdos who are willing to hand out $7k to an oddball anachronistic tiny german company.


sadly, i'm afraid selling manual focus to the masses is definitely a thing of the past.

Spyro P. wrote:
-Any camera that looks like a film camera is as good as a film camera, and worth paying $1.7k for (yes this is sans lens). Even though MF sucks and AF sucks too, and your lenses are cropped to half. Doesnt matter it looks cool.

I'll play along, what can I do.
I'll go with the times, pretend that I'm stupid, keep hoping.
But patience does have its limits...


agreed



Jan 13, 2012 at 11:48 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #6 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


michaelwatkins wrote:
Do you believe that manual focus lenses pose a similar threat to AF X Mount lens sales?

(I don't)

More importantly, given all the words these pages have seen blessing Fujifilm as a likely provider of high quality lenses, were the Nikon Mount Fuji lenses substandard in some way? Or just-as-good but not priced in such a way to be competitive with the Nikon brand? Or better but poorly marketed? Or was AF less strong or did they suffer from compatibility issues with Nikon bodies? Or was the real problem the body? What was the core issue that made those bodies and
...Show more

No I don't either for at least two reasons A) Fuji does not have to pay a third party for the camera. B) Fuji never made NIkon F mount lenses so they saw absolutely NO profit from lenses with their DSLR sales.



Jan 13, 2012 at 11:49 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.52 #7 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


Pixel Perfect wrote:
There are a ton of complaints about the NEX-5N AF and it appears the Fuji X100 is not alone. Only the m4/3 and Nikon V1/J1 have truly fast CDAF at this stage.


I played with GH2 and GX1. AF was rather good. And I can't help wondering what Olympus has up their sleeves.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Jan 13, 2012 at 12:13 PM
RoySussex
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p.52 #8 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


"Apple practically gives OS X away - and certainly does not charge anything even remotely close to covering the costs associated with developing it - but has traditionally subsidized this cost through hardware prices. Microsoft has historically charged much more for the software in contrast as they could not rely on selling hardware as a subsidy"

Yes, Apple are an incredibly generous company.
In a parallel universe, perhaps.
Roy



Jan 13, 2012 at 12:22 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.52 #9 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Fuji never made NIkon F mount lenses so they saw absolutely NO profit from lenses with their DSLR sales.


So they bought a chassis with someone else's mount with no expectation of making lens sales. Was this done so they could rapidly fill a hole in the product line up?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
your first assertion "Fujifilm will price both components such that they stand on their own from a profit perspective." How do you know? Not all companies do that, even camera makers. Sony has been known to even sell at a loss in order to gain market share for instance. Thus, unless you know the internal marketing of company "x", such a blanket statement is baseless.


Not baseless, inferred. Do the X100 or X10 look like loss leaders? No. Should we assume that the X Pro 1 subsidizes the X mount lenses? Why should we? It makes less sense to assume that they would than to assume they would not.

The major difference between the X Pro 1 and a NEX-5N are some details as to how the shared sensor is packaged in each camera's implementation, and the optical viewfinder of course. Certainly the additional manual controls increase body costs too, but not radically so. The price delta between the two cameras is very large however - more than $1,000 US at retail - and it seems unlikely (my guess, baseless no doubt) that the implementation cost differences are proportional to the final selling price delta.

Fujifilm seems to be pricing its X line at elevated levels relative to the technology in them. They are riding something of a wave right now that has not yet crested, so they can do this.

Auto focus lenses on the other hand are something of a commodity, easily compared to AF lenses from other makers. Thus unless Fujifilm is out of the gate coming out with new classics featuring great resolving power, low distortion, in a really sturdy package designed to last the ages, we can probably expect they are building lenses that are good enough for the task that can be manufactured and sold at prices roughly competitive with other major camera makers. Noting Canon's seasonal push for lens sales, not bodies, in its television advertising, I'm assuming that Canon makes money on its lenses and assume that Nikon does as well and even Sony. Without direct evidence to the contrary the simple case is the one we should lean on.

So yes, I'm inferring that Fujifilm intends the body and lens sales to return profits individually. How they amortize their development costs over the long run ... who knows, but from a cost of production and sales perspective there is no reason to believe they aren't earning a profit on the sale of each unit.

Regardless, offering an open camera body with support for alt glass doesn't change the foregoing. They'll sell incrementally more bodies and more AF lenses if they offer a system which properly supports manual focus lenses. Yes, that's opinion but is it baseless?




Jan 13, 2012 at 12:36 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #10 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


Good news at mirrorlessrumors.com

Fuji M mount adapter in April. 14mm lens IS 1.4! Cheaper X mount body down the road.



Jan 13, 2012 at 12:37 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #11 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


RoySussex wrote:
"Apple practically gives OS X away - and certainly does not charge anything even remotely close to covering the costs associated with developing it - but has traditionally subsidized this cost through hardware prices. Microsoft has historically charged much more for the software in contrast as they could not rely on selling hardware as a subsidy"

Yes, Apple are an incredibly generous company.
In a parallel universe, perhaps.
Roy


It's not about generosity per se. They subsidize the OS price with hardware and other services in their closed system. That was the only point.



Jan 13, 2012 at 12:41 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.52 #12 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


michael49 wrote:
Still hoping for a FF EVIL, personally.


Sony may give you that.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Jan 13, 2012 at 01:02 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #13 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


michaelwatkins wrote:
So they bought a chassis with someone else's mount with no expectation of making lens sales. Was this done so they could rapidly fill a hole in the product line up?

Not baseless, inferred. Do the X100 or X10 look like loss leaders? No. Should we assume that the X Pro 1 subsidizes the X mount lenses? Why should we? It makes less sense to assume that they would than to assume they would not.

The major difference between the X Pro 1 and a NEX-5N are some details as to how the shared sensor is packaged in each camera's implementation, and
...Show more

I don't know why Fuji chose to use Nikon bodies, I can only guess. When they did this originally, DSLR's were quite expensive and with Nikon they were able gain a quick and direct path into a well established system. There was a huge installed user base from the very start. They were likely surprised by just how fast and competitive the market they entered into actually became. For instance, I paid $2400 for my APS 6MP Fuji S2 Pro NIkon based body, a body which was one of Nikon's cheaper consumer bodies no less, sometime in late 2002 or so. Only three years later and one could buy a FF Canon 5D 12MP camera for not much more (I think I paid around $2700). I don't think Fuji could keep up with the expectations of their users AND continue to make a profit.

I don't know if Fuji is pricing their technology at elevated prices since we have no direct camera to compare it with (one which has a Hybrid finder). This is usually where Fuji does the best - introduce products which have unique, home grown innovative technologies which cannot be directly replaced with something else. We saw it with the Super CCD in the DSLR's (amazing dynamic range), we now see it with the Hybrid finder and possibly the CFA technology and I would argue we saw it in their film products as well (Acros, Velvia, and so on).

I do think (infer, guess or whatever) Fuji has priced both their lenses and their body to individually make a profit. That said, my Sony example still stands. And besides the computer hardware/ software example, another very obvious/ famous example are printers and ink. Many companies sell ink jet printers at a loss, subsiding their cost with the fortune they make in ink sales.



Jan 13, 2012 at 01:07 PM
domdog31
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p.52 #14 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


X Pro-1 Wins Best In Show at CES 2012 ----- besting even the D4

FULL LIST HERE:

ES 2012: CNET Names Best Of CES Award Winners
TWICE Staff -- TWICE, 1/12/2012


LAS VEGAS - CNET announced the winners of this year's Best Of CES awards, the official awards program of CES. The awards recognize the best products at the show, including the two grand prizes, the Best of Show award and the People's Voice award, as voted by the CNET audience.

The winners are as follows:

Best of Show: LG 55EM9600 OLED TV

The first 55-inch OLED TV announced as shipping in 2011, and the only one to get an actual model number and public ship date ("Q3"), the 55EM9800 promises the superb all-around performance of OLED (absolute black levels, ultra-fast panel and excellent viewing angles) in an ultra-thin panel.

People's Voice: Razer Project Fiona

Razer's Project Fiona concept gaming tablet, shown at CES 2012, suggests that Windows 8 is a serious player in portable gaming, and that Razer is serious about moving into manufacturing computers.

Winners by category include:

Car Tech: QNX CAR 2 mobile apps platform

Smartphones: Nokia Lumia 900

Cameras: Fujifilm X-Pro1

Emerging Tech: MakerBot Replicator

Home Theater: Simple.TV

PCs: HP Envy 14 Spectre

Software and apps: BlueStacks for Windows 8

Networking: D-Link Amplifi HD Media Router 3000

Tablets: Asus Memo 370T

TVs: LG 55EM9600 OLED TV



Jan 13, 2012 at 01:07 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.52 #15 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Good news at mirrorlessrumors.com

Fuji M mount adapter in April. 14mm lens IS 1.4! Cheaper X mount body down the road.


I'm sure I won't like the size, weight and price.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Jan 13, 2012 at 02:03 PM
michael49
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p.52 #16 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


Yakim Peled wrote:
Sony may give you that.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.


Hmm.....



Jan 13, 2012 at 02:51 PM
michael49
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p.52 #17 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


Evangelos wrote:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_pro1/sample_images/

Many more samples than I saw last time I checked (yesterday).

Evan


Multiple large samples (? full size) here.



Jan 13, 2012 at 02:53 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #18 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


michael49 wrote:
Hmm.....


It is now probably at least a year off because Sony has apparently delayed their FF plans. The A99 FF was supposed to be released this spring but now the rumor is late fall. That likely means the FF NEX stye body will be in 2013 sometime. Hurry up and wait. right?



Jan 13, 2012 at 03:05 PM
carstenw
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p.52 #19 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


C'mon guys, peace on earth. This is all just opinions anyway.

michaelwatkins wrote:
Should we assume that the X Pro 1 subsidizes the X mount lenses? Why should we? It makes less sense to assume that they would than to assume they would not.


Just one point:

yes, it does make sense to assume that the body would be more expensive and the lenses less so. First of all, $1700 for the body and $600 for a 35/1.4 sure makes it sound that way. The body is quite expensive, the lens is somewhat cheap. Secondly, it increases their profit for the market of alt lens users. Thirdly, they increase their income with each new body, whereas lenses tend to be bought only once. So there are certainly some very compelling reasons to do things that way.

That of course doesn't mean that this is what they are doing, but it is neither inconceivable nor weird.



Jan 13, 2012 at 03:24 PM
Winder
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p.52 #20 · Fujifilm X-Pro1 interchangeable lens


carstenw wrote:
C'mon guys, peace on earth. This is all just opinions anyway.

Just one point:

yes, it does make sense to assume that the body would be more expensive and the lenses less so. First of all, $1700 for the body and $600 for a 35/1.4 sure makes it sound that way. The body is quite expensive, the lens is somewhat cheap. Secondly, it increases their profit for the market of alt lens users. Thirdly, they increase their income with each new body, whereas lenses tend to be bought only once. So there are certainly some very compelling reasons to do things that
...Show more
The lenses will probably go up once Fuji feels like it has an established user base. Right now they need to get lenses out the door and get people invested in this system. These appear to be top quality lenses.



Jan 13, 2012 at 04:15 PM
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