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Archive 2011 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

EB-1
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p.5 #1 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

Pixel Perfect wrote:
But if they can now shoot say ISO 6400 at the same noise as they could at ISO 800/1600 with the 1D II/1D III imagine the possibilities. I'm not sure what field sports need longer than 400, other than cricket, but surely even with the 1D X they'll have enough reach for the most part. Every sport I attend 90% of the lenses are 400 f/2.8. With the improved AF of the 400 II and the 1D X and high ISO noise it might be more than enough to make up for the loss of reach in most cases.

Do you really expect the native noise to be improved by three stops? I'm not that optimistic

EBH

Oct 19, 2011 at 09:37 PM

uz2work
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p.5 #2 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

AJSJones wrote:
Given that much wildlife and most birds are very active around dawn and dusk, the extra shutterspeed available from the high ISO will be appreciated - at least by those that don't have a 2x MkIII bolted to their long lenses (who won't be able to AF anyway)

Over the course of the last decade, I've seen the release announcements from Canon for probably a couple of dozen new bodies. In each case, those release announcements have proclaimed large improvements in high ISO performance, but, in each case, the actual real world improvement turns out to be a fraction of what was promoted. I would be surprised if the high ISO/noise improvement with the 1D X turns out to be something more than about one stop. But, if the 1D X user now needs to add a 1.4x to a 500/4 or a 600/4 or needs to move from a 600/4 to an 800/5.6 to compensate for the loss in pixel density compared to a 1D Mark IV, a stop of light is lost, and the expected gain in performance now becomes a wash.

Les

Oct 19, 2011 at 09:45 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.5 #3 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

EB-1 wrote:
Do you really expect the native noise to be improved by three stops? I'm not that optimistic

EBH

3 stops compared to 1D II, 2 stops compared to 1D III. If Canon can be believed, it's very possible. 1D III is more than a stp cleaner than 1D II at high ISO. Canon say ISO 51200 is like ISO 12800 on 1D IV.

Oct 19, 2011 at 10:09 PM

M Lucca
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p.5 #4 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

It's price for me. But if the next 5d3 is a cut down version of the 1dx, then I will be a happy camper.

Oct 20, 2011 at 12:37 AM

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p.5 #5 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

CON: Loss of 1.3x Format
CON: Price
PRO: Ultra High ISO Capability

Oct 20, 2011 at 01:50 AM

Rusty1
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p.5 #6 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

Pixel Perfect wrote:
And for me there'd be another $12-13K hit for a 600 or 800 to negate the loss of reach and AF @ f/8

Me sees this merge to FF opening a slot for an improved 7D aimed at the action shooter who appreciates the extra reach. Improved sensor with less noise to be specific.

FF a deal killer for me.

Oct 20, 2011 at 12:26 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.5 #7 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

omarlyn wrote:
Unless the 1DIV becomes highly prized for it's 1.3x crop factor and f/8 AF point....then it may actually increase in price!

Omar

I didn't think about that.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Oct 20, 2011 at 01:24 PM

uz2work
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p.5 #8 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

Yakim Peled wrote:
I didn't think about that.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

If the 1D Mark IV is, indeed, the last 1.3 crop "speed" camera that Canon makes, it may well come to be considered to be a "classic" in much the same way that people have thought of cameras like the D30, the original 1D, and the 5D as classics. It is a camera that does its job, does it superbly, and has had no major problems and very few complaints from its owners. Not only do I expect to see 1D Mark IV bodies on the sidelines of major sporting events for years to come, but many are likely to see reasons to continue to use it for the next few years over the 1D X, and many will be dismayed by the discontinuation of a body that seemed to find the ideal balance between image quality, pixel size, pixel density, and speed.

I would expect that Canon will continue to sell the 1D Mark IV for quite a while. I'm not sure why they wouldn't. I'm not sure that I can think of another body for which, almost 2 years after it first became available, the demand still exceeds the supply. Even though I know that events in Japan had a significant affect on supply and that other economic conditions have had their influence, I find it remarkable that, not only can retailers still not keep 1D Mark IV bodies in supply, but, also, I can't think of another body that has held its introductory price this long into its life cycle, and, through a good part of that time, the selling price has actually been above the introductory price.

I expect that demand for the 1D Mark IV, both new and used, will remain strong for some time to come, and Canon's 1D X announcement will only strengthen that demand, both because the 1D Mark IV will be the last of the series and because the 1D X, while an excellent camera, will not be able to do some of the things that have been important reasons why people wanted a 1D Mark IV, and I don't expect to see the used market flooded with 1D Mark IV bodies to the same extent that it is normally flooded following the announcement of a replacement body.

Les

Oct 20, 2011 at 02:08 PM

jamesf99
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p.5 #9 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

omarlyn wrote:
Which individual feature of the new 1D X do you find to be the most satisfying or disappointing for you?

With the specs and feature set of the 1D X announced, I have arbitrarily picked 10 features (5 pro & 5 con) that I think represent the major changes in the new 1D X. I have left out the performance of the new AF & metering systems because they are impossible to gauge simply on specs alone but are assumed to be better and no one should complain about improved AF & metering.

Remember, this Poll is to pick the one individual...Show more →

Hmmmm.. hard to pick just one. I picked AF, but should have picked price... I'll remember to vote early and often next time..

Since I'm not a Canon fanboy and will call it like I see it, regardless of what someone thinks is politically correct, here goes. I also know my opinion and $5.00 will get me a cup of coffee, so it is what it is but it's (1Dx) not for me right now...

HUGE CON - an updated FF 1D (or a 1Ds Mark II) for a stupidly high price in 2012? Crappy USD (over valued Yen?) aside, this is over priced. Since it's not even shipping for more than 6 months we can only speculate on its real worth, but it won't ripen with age. this camera, even with the updated features, should be in the $3.5 to $4k range, not almost $7k...

Pro - I like FF, so that's great. We now have an updated 1DS Mark II.

"meh" -FPS is far beyond what I need on the most challenging day. I've been fine with 10 FPS capability for a while, and don't even use it... not a Pro if you won't use it but I'm sure some will.

"meh" - Video - cute, nothing more..if it cost $0.05 to implement, it's a con to me, otherwise like every other Canon video offering it's a "so what"...

"meh" -ISO 2 million or whatever..Right now I see this as a joke with Canon trying to beat Nikon on "specsmanship". Not a real pro beyond a reasonable level (may vary by person), and possibly a -5 points if it's ineffective. Time will tell if it really works and perhaps I'll change my impression..

CON - (not mentioned, but...) the GPS not built in.

CON - Lens AF performance has been dumbed down.. WTF are they thinking? Perhaps they're waiting to restore - on the 1dx mark II version - the feature that many of us have used for years; that way they can charge us again for it.. Unless I read a logical reason for the removal, I'll assume it was yet another of Canon's famous product differentiators.

Edited on Oct 20, 2011 at 06:26 PM · View previous versions

Oct 20, 2011 at 03:06 PM

MrAdventure
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p.5 #10 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

Rusty1 wrote:
Me sees this merge to FF opening a slot for an improved 7D aimed at the action shooter who appreciates the extra reach. Improved sensor with less noise to be specific.

FF a deal killer for me.

+1

I think the 1.3 loss is intended to push up the lower end of the lineup. I'm way more interested in ISO improvement and ergonomic layout of functions than the crop factor (owned several 1D bodies). Extra reach is nice but I don't think the 1.3 was that great over FF in general.

We all make noise...but I know the lust after the new body must be enormous.

Oct 20, 2011 at 03:12 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.5 #11 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

I'd agree that this apparent inability to AF at f/8 is a problem for Houston, and Canon, and the many photographers who use 2x extenders on large telephotos. I would imagine that this would make the 1Dx a complete non-starter for most of them who are faced with the loss of functionality in their (very expensive) lenses.

I think it sounds a like a really fine camera for those who are targeted by its feature set. But it certainly is not the be all, end all camera for all DSLR shooters.

Dan

cameron12x wrote:
One of three things has likely happened:

1. Canon marketing has blundered and they don't understand the full capabilities of the body and it can indeed focus at f/8.

2. Canon has done this by design so that photographers are forced to spend more money on faster (and/or longer) glass in order to have the ability to use autofocus with the reach that they need for given FL subjects.

3. There are technical reasons with this body which prevented focusing at f/8 to be easily implemented.

It's hard to know which of the three reasons are in play, or a combination of them. Regardless,...Show more →

Oct 20, 2011 at 03:21 PM

uz2work
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p.5 #12 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

gdanmitchell wrote:
I think it sounds a like a really fine camera for those who are targeted by its feature set. But it certainly is not the be all, end all camera for all DSLR shooters.

Dan

It really strikes me as curious and ironic that Canon decided to combine the 1-series bodies and to make a single body that "does it all" and that is supposed to serve all purposes, but the reality would seem to be that what they have ended up doing is replacing 2 bodies that each met the needs of some shooters but not all shooters with a single body that also meets the needs of some shooters but that does not meet as well as it could the needs of the shooters for whom the bodies being replaced were targeted. The portion of the 1Ds crowd who wants maximum resolution certainly isn't happy with what they get in the 1D X, and the portion of the 1D crowd that uses long lenses, values pixel density, and often uses extenders isn't happy about what they get in the 1D X. So, Canon seems to have made a camera that will better please those whose shooting might be described as more general, and, to do so, they appear to have abandoned the needs of more specialized shooters. If the flagship camera(s) can't meet the more specialized needs, I'm not sure that it looks like a true flagship. Perhaps, this says that a "Jack of all trades" camera just isn't possible. Although, I'm not sure whether the 1D X is the best attempt that could be made at building such a Jack of all trades camera. I think that the best attempt at creating such a camera would have been a 30 mp ff camera with an 18 mp 1.3 crop high speed mode.

Les

Oct 20, 2011 at 03:52 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.5 #13 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

uz2work wrote:
Perhaps, this says that a "Jack of all trades" camera just isn't possible. Although, I'm not sure whether the 1D X is the best attempt that could be made at building such a Jack of all trades camera. I think that the best attempt at creating such a camera would have been a 30 mp ff camera with an 18 mp 1.3 crop high speed mode.

Les

I agree, either you improve the 1D IV but still leave it APS-H, or you have a FF that has the same or similar pixel density. That would truly be a one camera that can do it all. However, it looks like they really needed to out do Nikon on noise at all costs and kept pixel density low to achieve this. What will be hilarious if Nikon D4 is say 24MP+ and still equals or betters the 1D X for noise anyway.

Oct 20, 2011 at 04:55 PM

uz2work
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p.5 #14 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

Pixel Perfect wrote:
However, it looks like they really needed to out do Nikon on noise at all costs and kept pixel density low to achieve this. .

It remains to be seen, though, how successful Canon will be with the 1D X in improving noise performance over the 1D Mark IV.

Earlier today I was reading some posts over at Naturescapes by someone (who has posted here in the past) who seems like the guru of understanding the relationship between sensor and pixel design and noise. I don't claim to understand a good part of the technical aspects of what he explained, but his analysis of the 1D X specs was that he believes that the bulk of the ISO/noise improvement that Canon is claiming for the 1D X is coming from in-camera jpeg noise reduction and that the reduction in noise in raw files will actually be well under one stop. Further, he said that for those 1D Mark IV users who move to a 1D X and have to use a 1.4x to make up for the loss of the 1.3 crop, the loss of a stop related to use of that converter will make the ISO/noise performance a wash. A big part of improved noise performance on recent bodies evidently came as the result of the gapless micro lenses, which the 1D Mark IV already has, and it may well be that as much as can be squeezed out of that technology has already happened.

Les

Oct 20, 2011 at 05:39 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.5 #15 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

uz2work wrote:
It remains to be seen, though, how successful Canon will be with the 1D X in improving noise performance over the 1D Mark IV.

Earlier today I was reading some posts over at Naturescapes by someone (who has posted here in the past) who seems like the guru of understanding the relationship between sensor and pixel design and noise. I don't claim to understand a good part of the technical aspects of what he explained, but his analysis of the 1D X specs was that he believes that the bulk of the ISO/noise improvement that Canon is claiming for the...Show more →

If this is true Les, then that make it's even harder to recommend upgrading. I could care less about jpg quality. It's would be disappointing if they have not been able to achieve lower read-out noise, improved QE, lowered thermal noise etc as well.

Oct 20, 2011 at 06:17 PM

uz2work
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p.5 #16 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

Pixel Perfect wrote:
If this is true Les, then that make it's even harder to recommend upgrading. I could care less about jpg quality. It's would be disappointing if they have not been able to achieve lower read-out noise, improved QE, lowered thermal noise etc as well.

Well, the reason why it wouldn't surprise me if it did turn out to be true is what we have seen with previous camera releases and Canon's release announcements about each.

If you were to add up all of the steps of ISO improvement that Canon has said there would when each generation of cameras has been announced and if all of those claims had turned out to be true, we should be seeing shots at ISO 128,000 that are as clean as shots at ISO 100, and that certainly has not been the case. Experience with Canon's claims tells me to expect actual improvement at a level that is only a fraction of what Canon claims it will be.

Les

Oct 20, 2011 at 06:43 PM

rscheffler
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p.5 #17 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

uz2work wrote:
Yes, but that was by what based on 2004 or 2007 standards, but the bar with regard to quality has been raised considerably since then. I'm sure that there were pictures that could have earned a 2 page spread in a national magazine in 2004 that, today, could only measure up to the acceptable level of a 4x6 picture in a small town paper. I also know that there are wildlife pictures that would have been published in 2004 that, today, would have trouble winning an honorable mention in a local photo contest. And I can't imagine that people are...Show more →

Actually, the bar for technical quality for PJ applications hasn't changed, since the end result is either newsprint or the web, both of which don't require extremely high resolution. 8MP is more than enough. You're also looking at it in a way that's typical for a gear forum, but not necessarily typical of the real world. A good picture is a good picture for its content, irrelevant whether it was shot on a 1D or a 1DX. At least that's the way a newspaper photo editor would look at it. Yes, it's nice to have the added technical benefits of a higher rez camera with lower noise, etc., but quality content is the primary attraction.

What I find interesting is the apparent reversal of Canon's reasoning for the 1DIV's appeal to PJs and sports photographers, who are certainly a major target market for the X. Back then, apparently a factor for keeping the IV APS-H was in part due to the demands by news photographers for a smaller sensor that allowed use of shorter lenses. I.e. a 300 instead of a much larger 400. Additionally, the pixel density of the IV allows for deeper cropping. This is lost with the X. Meanwhile the price has apparently gone up $2K (all of the D non-s bodies sold between $4500-$5500 at introduction), which will make the camera a tougher sell for newsrooms facing budget restrictions or for freelancers not seeing revenue growth in this challenging market segment.

Oct 21, 2011 at 12:06 AM

Pixel Perfect
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p.5 #18 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

rscheffler wrote:
What I find interesting is the apparent reversal of Canon's reasoning for the 1DIV's appeal to PJs and sports photographers, who are certainly a major target market for the X. Back then, apparently a factor for keeping the IV APS-H was in part due to the demands by news photographers for a smaller sensor that allowed use of shorter lenses. I.e. a 300 instead of a much larger 400. Additionally, the pixel density of the IV allows for deeper cropping. This is lost with the X. Meanwhile the price has apparently gone up $2K (all of the D non-s bodies...Show more →

Exactly, this is what I said when the 1D X was rumoured to have 18MP, that they would now be backtracking, or perhaps hoping we have short memories, on one of the major selling points of the 1D IV; it's extra "reach" or cropability. Now it seems it's about the amazing AF and high ISO noise, although apparently this improvement is largely limited to jpg, not RAW. Also agree that now having asingle camera that pushes up the price another $2K on the 1D price is a bit galling. But it was never ever going to be different if they went FF.

Now more than ever they need to resurrect the EOS 3 model for a high quality alternative to the 1 series, that is far more affordable and is more inline with a true 1D IV update sans a few features. This would tear the market up IMO.

Oct 21, 2011 at 12:22 AM

Yakim Peled
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p.5 #19 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

uz2work wrote:
If the 1D Mark IV is, indeed, the last 1.3 crop "speed" camera that Canon makes, it may well come to be considered to be a "classic" in much the same way that people have thought of cameras like the D30, the original 1D, and the 5D as classics. It is a camera that does its job, does it superbly, and has had no major problems and very few complaints from its owners. Not only do I expect to see 1D Mark IV bodies on the sidelines of major sporting events for years to come, but many are likely to...Show more →

You sound so much like my wife. So logical it hurts.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Oct 21, 2011 at 06:00 AM

uz2work
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p.5 #20 · 1D X Feature Set Pros & Cons

rscheffler wrote:
Actually, the bar for technical quality for PJ applications hasn't changed, since the end result is either newsprint or the web, both of which don't require extremely high resolution. 8MP is more than enough. You're also looking at it in a way that's typical for a gear forum, but not necessarily typical of the real world. A good picture is a good picture for its content, irrelevant whether it was shot on a 1D or a 1DX. At least that's the way a newspaper photo editor would look at it. Yes, it's nice to have the added technical benefits of...Show more →

I'm sure that you are quite correct regarding the bar for quality for newsprint and the web. When I said that the bar had been raised, I was thinking more of other applications, such large photos in Sports Illustrated or some other magazine. And it seems like institutions like Getty are constantly raising the level for how many pixels are needed before an image is even eligible for use by them.

In any case, I'm quite confident in my assessment that, in trying to build a high end do-it-all camera, while Canon may have pleased some/many, they have also taken steps backward from meeting the needs of a good number of the users of the two previous 1-series body lines.

Les

Oct 21, 2011 at 07:07 AM

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