I don't give out raw files, unless to a trusted art director that knows what he is doing that being said I photographed for an industrial client recently. One of the managers (son of another more Sr manager) stated he needs all the raw files, I have said no, but I will provide them with the retouched JPEGs-which will work better for him any way. We are now in a struggle - anyone else ever in the same situation? how did you handle? Dave
I never give anyone RAW files as I am not confident that they would even know what to do with them. I provide full size 16bit Tiff files to my clients along with a web sized jpeg. I will also provide a print ready file if they have the specs needed from the printer or let them know that I will provide it in the future if needed. I have had clients try to make print ready files from a Tiff file and the printer usually can not use them. I want to be sure that any prints made from work look as good as possible so I do not mind offering the extra service.
I've seen it a few times. I've also had clients demand that I give them every single shot from a job. One woman actually went through the file names and asked for the missing files. When I said that I would only provide the keepers she didn't like it. I told her that there was no way I was going to let anyone have something that wasn't my best work. Your situation is similar. Having someone butcher your work in post probably isn't something you'd like, although it can be done to jpegs just as easily and with worse results...
Unless it is a "work for hire" scenario (and your name NEVER associated to them) ... I can't imagine giving RAW files away.
It would probably help to find out WHY he THINKS he should have the RAW files. He probably thinks he is SUPPOSED to get the RAW files and thus needs a bit of education on the matter. Sounds like he's afraid "Daddy" will get on him if he doesn't "flex" properly.
It might help to explain to him that his company doesn't give away their raw materials (part of the process) ... just because someone is purchasing their finished product(s). Those RAW files are part of YOUR intermediary processes to your finished product.
The only thing that comes to mind as being valid is the security relative to proprietary proceses of images that you may have taken that they want to safeguard from potential competitors. By receiving the entire RAW file (as if you wouldn't have a copy ) they feel they have control in preventing that. But, if that were the case ... I'd image it would have been specified up front.
Contract should state deliverables but you never want to give away the RAW files unless it's a work for hire. The contract should also very specifically state that alteration of the image is not allowed. You deliver a finished image because that's what we do.
spoke with the president of the company and she agreed the son of the manager thinks he knows more than he actually does. She knows nothing about raws files-just that man in question says they are the thing to have. All she knows is she wants good photos. A brochure was already produced and now she needs photos for the web site-I told her I will supply her with an online downloadable gallery or a DVD, she is happy.
RustyBug-I used the line of "your company doesn't sell its raw materials" I think it helped a lot Many THANKS
A lot of people have no idea what RAW files are. Sometimes they think it's just the full resolution jpg image (they probably don't know what a jpg is, either) that their computer can read and they can do 'stuff' with. They hear a friend say they should get the raw file and suddenly the war of words starts.
So now this company has come back to me asking if I have a website that will describe photographers procedures regarding not giving out raw files - they are driving me nuts ... help anyone, does anyone know of a website that will backup my claim that photographers don't give out raw files? I searched ASMP but did not see anything.
i think Seth Resnick has something too, but I can't find it right now.
At any rate, it's easy to throw together something like Blake's explanation on your own site with your own images. ACR is ideal for generating samples since its defaults are so much uglier than other converters. If you really want to go for the gusto (and you're using a Mac), RAW Developer is even more hideous.
dpBestflow has a (photographer-oriented) explanation that may blind them with science. I wouldn't send it to a client myself because it's gobbledegooky, but it might serve a purpose in some cases.
Just ask them to provide you with some written evidence as to why they don't give their raw materials, or intermediate materials, in addition to the finished product to their customers.
What industrial industry are we talking about? As a reliiability / maintenance / operations professional for everything from pharma to steel ... I'm certain that they have intermediary products in their processes that get used to produce final products. The RAW files are NOT a finished product, they are an intermediary product (just like negatives). You were contracted to, and are in the business of, providing a finished product ... not to be a supplier of raw goods & services for your intermediary workmanship to be at the whim of the world.
Just like you aren't going to go down to McDonalds and demand that they give you the oil (or fozen french fries) they used to fry your french fries in ... that is THEIR'S as part of the process. You aren't entitled to it just because you bought a "happy meal".
It sounds like you are dealing with a total idiot and I pity them if that's the kind of mental giants they have running their company.
Now that I've ranted a bit ... that doesn't help you directly. It sounds like you are dealing with a self-ordained fool who thinks he has half a clue, proceed with caution, as if you aren't already aware of that.
Rather than a true RAW (i.e. unfinished) file ... could you maybe satisfy them with a TIFF format of your finished work, rather than a jpeg. Maybe they are simply wanting something that is "uncompressed" for best quality ... having been told that jpegs are inferior quality due to the compression factor, or some such thing.
Uncompressed, final edited, finished TIFF/DNG ... I'm not giving you a .NEF or .CR2 file unless it was a "work for hire" (or trusted as your OP).
Also, ask them to show you where in the contract language they specified you were to provide such RAW file.
Of coure, you'll want to handle this with more tact (maybe) than I'm ranting with, but ...
cineski wrote:
The contract should also very specifically state that alteration of the image is not allowed. You deliver a finished image because that's what we do.
RustyBug wrote:
Just ask them to provide you with some written evidence as to why they don't give their raw materials, or intermediate materials, in addition to the finished product to their customers.
What industrial industry are we talking about? As a reliiability / maintenance / operations professional for everything from pharma to steel ... I'm certain that they have intermediary products in their processes that get used to produce final products. The RAW files are NOT a finished product, they are an intermediary product (just like negatives). You were contracted to, and are in the business of, providing a finished product ... not to be a supplier of raw goods & services for your intermediary workmanship to be at the whim of the world.
Just like you aren't going to go down to McDonalds and demand that they give you the oil (or fozen french fries) they used to fry your french fries in ... that is THEIR'S as part of the process. You aren't entitled to it just because you bought a "happy meal".
It sounds like you are dealing with a total idiot and I pity them if that's the kind of mental giants they have running their company.
Now that I've ranted a bit ... that doesn't help you directly. It sounds like you are dealing with a self-ordained fool who thinks he has half a clue, proceed with caution, as if you aren't already aware of that.
Rather than a true RAW (i.e. unfinished) file ... could you maybe satisfy them with a TIFF format of your finished work, rather than a jpeg. Maybe they are simply wanting something that is "uncompressed" for best quality ... having been told that jpegs are inferior quality due to the compression factor, or some such thing.
Uncompressed, final edited, finished TIFF/DNG ... I'm not giving you a .NEF or .CR2 file unless it was a "work for hire" (or trusted as your OP).
Also, ask them to show you where in the contract language they specified you were to provide such RAW file.
Of coure, you'll want to handle this with more tact (maybe) than I'm ranting with, but ...
Like everything it is not always black and white...
If you have a commercial image for example that is going to be heavily retouched it is NOT uncommon for the raw file(s) to be delivered along with processed tiff. WHY? Because the retoucher might have better luck cutting parts and pieces from a processed file he can control...to fit the retouching.
I agree ... but I don't see a retoucher anywhere in sight on this one. A webmaster maybe, but not a retoucher ... the brochure has ALREADY been printed. What in the world do they NOW need the RAW files for ... like the webmaster wants a bunch of 20MB files.
Since they obviously didn't specify the RAW files as part of the deliverables originally ... the OP didn't quote the job for such. IF they truly want the RAW files NOW, then the OP could always give them a quote for the RAW files ... they were NOT part of the original quote ... and see if they want to PAY for the RAW files and all that they provide for.
I'm not saying that there isn't application for yielding RAW files ... but this one is clearly not it ... did I mention they've ALREADY PRINTED the brochure.
david debalko wrote:
A brochure was already produced and now she needs photos for the web site
Besides, if they want the images to be consistent between the already printed brochure and the website ... why in the world would you want a different retoucher to re-develop the RAW files Unless, of course, you are wanting to do something DIFFERENT with the RAW files to generate a different image. I can't think of anything that a webmaster would need from a .NEF/.CR2 that he couldn't get from the finished jpg/tiff/dng in order to utilize the provided imagery.
RustyBug wrote:
I agree ... but I don't see a retoucher anywhere in sight on this one. A webmaster maybe, but not a retoucher ... the brochure has ALREADY been printed. What in the world do they NOW need the RAW files for ... like the webmaster wants a bunch of 20MB files.
Since they obviously didn't specify the RAW files as part of the deliverables originally ... the OP didn't quote the job for such. IF they truly want the RAW files NOW, then the OP could always give them a quote for the RAW files ... they were NOT part of the original quote ... and see if they want to PAY for the RAW files and all that they provide for.
I'm not saying that there isn't application for yielding RAW files ... but this one is clearly not it ... did I mention they've ALREADY PRINTED the brochure.
RustyBug wrote:
Unless it is a "work for hire" scenario (and your name NEVER associated to them) ... I can't imagine giving RAW files away.
Like I said its just not always so black and white. In the advertising world quite often your work is just a starting point, and the idea is to be part of the team.
No was that the case here? No, but that was not my point...nor yours in the post I quoted.
+1 @ collaborative effort ... but this scenario hasn't been described as a collaborative effort with the client's art department.
It has been described as delivering a finished product to take to print & web. Working on a project with a knowledgeable, professional collaborative team effort, imo, is not the same as giving your RAW files to someone who doesn't even know what/why they want a RAW file or the difference of what it is vs. a jpg ... other than it's "the thing to have".
I suppose the manager in question expects the police/security (which the company pays one way or another) to give them the bullets they use too ... just in case he wants to perform his own security when they aren't around ... and THEN wanting it in writing why the police don't want to give away their bullets to him. A poor rant of an example, but "come on" ... demanding RAW files AFTER the project has been printed and not even having a reason why you NOW need them ... sigh
So next time I go purchase a CD, I should be able to DEMAND from the artist/studio that they also include the unedited master audio files so I can use them however I want. After all, I don't see it anywhere in writing that says they shouldn't give me the unedited master audio files along with the finished product ... therefore, I should be able to DEMAND they give them to me after I've already purchased the CD at the agreed price for a CD ... think about it, sounds kinda silly, doesn't it (i.e. totally freakin' absurd).
While we're at it, Hollywood should give me all the unedited footage for a movie whenever I buy a DVD. And Adobe should give me all their computer programs they use for making PS ... and Ford should give me all their patents, engineering drawings & manuals when I buy a car from them.
Point being ... if you have agreed to buy a finished product ... you get the finished product. If you want to buy some or all of the components to that finished product (especially in addition to having already received the finished product) ... it's a vastly different pricing structure that was NOT part of the agreement to provide/deliver a finished product.
Short version ... what did the agreement / contract specify for deliverables ... i.e. finished product vs. finished product + unfinished components
It's really a pretty straight-forward contract issue. It either says RAW files are part of the deliverable or it doesn't.
Not the most direct application, but the concept is at least presented. When someone works as an independent contractor, the law is different. The work product may be part of a proprietary process, and that person only needs to provide the finished product as requested. Documentation, including things like raw files, notes, and so forth, belongs to the independent contractor. A contract may specify turning over the work product, in which case this material also goes http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-work-product.htm
I find this argument somewhat silly and a wee bit egotistical.
First in the case of advertising images they are not a 'finished product". They are work product as part of a larger project, be it a catalog, brochure or a website. You make a print to hang on the clients wall, that is a finished product.
Second, advertising photographers have been delivering "raw files" for eons. I've been in this business for over 3 decades and for those of you who may have forgotten, delivering camera original transparency film was the norm. We set up the shots, proof them on Polaroid (I do miss type 51) and we gave the riods to the client if they asked, or tossed them in the trash for the most part. Finally we exposed some sheet or rolls transparency stock . If we wanted a few sheets for our book or a neg to make prints we made extras on our own dime. WE DELIVERED THE CAMERA ORIGINALS TO THE CLIENT. That's the RAW FILES guys.
Third for those of you who say ...only I can make a conversion that fit my vision of how I want this photo to look...great, do it. Deliver it. But why the big song and dance about also sending a copy of your raws if asked?
Lets face the cold, hard facts here. If you are shooting for advertising, your photos are quite often be cropped, lightened, darkened, retouched, composited, or generally bent a long way from your original "vision". Not always of course but the client will do to the images what he wants, and it out of your control. if that's going to happen (and it will) why are you so adverse to giving the client the best tools to do what needs to be done? In a lot of cases they will need to raws to do it right.
Now I'm not advocating that this needs to happen on every assignment. Heck I shoot LOTS of stuff as parts and pieces and then combine in post. The image really does not exist until it is retouched. Unless the client wants to do that the raws don't have a lot of value to them. However if they asked I'll give them a copy.
I learned a long time ago not to expect my images to move through the system and come out exactly as I saw it in the camera or in my minds eye. This is photography for commerce. Quite often I'm going to be disappointed in the final result. ... until I cash the check. And quite frankly that is all that really matters in the end. And I'll still have MY versions for MY samples....
) they feel they have control in preventing that. But, if that were the case ... I'd image it would have been specified up front. 
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