If I ever drank at a wedding that I was paid to shoot, it wouldn't be until the end of the night, and by that time, I can barely see or stand as it is from pure exhaustion. Booze isn't going to help.
At this weekends wedding, when I was saying goodnight to the B&G, the groom asked me, in slurred speak, "now can you have a beer with us?". I still politely said no. You have one beer, then they want you to have another one, then next thing you know, you can't legally drive outta there. Lol
Just as a purely side note, there can be a certain amount of liability involved in it. Assuming there's an accident involving yourself, your second shooter, your equipment, or you somehow botch the job, what happens if you get sued by the client? First thing their attorney will do is bring up the fact that you were tossing back a few during the event.
Geez some people are ignorant.
By choice to try and push an agenda or otherwise, I don't know.
Despite the inferences and high brow attitudes expressed here, having a drink does not have to be loosing control, being unable to do ones job, drinking all night, falling down or any of many other inferences here.
It IS more than possible to have A ( as in single) drink at a wedding or job and still carry out ones duties as they would otherwise. If I am sober enough to operate a motorvehicle, I am more than sober enough to operate a camera.
And for the record, I am not a boozer, I'm lucky to average 1 drink a month and only then If I have been to some social function. I don't drink at every wedding either. it's more of an exception than a rule.
I just don't get why some people get so on their high horse about this and want to blow it completely out of proportion. If you can't hold your alcohol or it has a bad effect, fine, don't drink it. be aware though that many people can have A drink and still be fine and neither impair their ability to do their job or cause a sensation.
A lot of people here would not want to get involved with corporate sales.
Telling a client it was unprofessional to have a drink during working hours would be an almost sure way to loose a sale.
The way some people go on here, you would think we were talking about snorting Crystal meth or something!
glort, I think the point you're missing is, what if 150 all see you having "A drink." The bride and groom a month down the road decide that you did not do the job they paid you for. They talk to people that were there, and hear over and over, I saw him drinking. They would never have a clue that it was only "A drink" and that everyone they talked to all saw the same single drink.
A suit goes to court, and 60 people sit on the stand and say I saw him drinking. It'd be up to you to prove otherwise to keep from losing the case. Why chance it?
Are most of us here going to ever get sued for nonperformance? No, we're professionals and know how to get the job done. But again, why chance it? You never know when some opportunistic ass is going to see this as a way to get some money for free.
I just don't get why some people get so on their high horse about this and want to blow it completely out of proportion. If you can't hold your alcohol or it has a bad effect, fine, don't drink it. be aware though that many people can have A drink and still be fine and neither impair their ability to do their job or cause a sensation.
A lot of people here would not want to get involved with corporate sales.
Telling a client it was unprofessional to have a drink during working hours would be an almost sure way to loose a sale. ...Show more →
You're blowing non-drinking out of proportion from the opposite direction.
Simply saying "no, thanks," is not a problem, and not drinking doesn't mean one is not having fun on the job. I can't imagine a sale being blown being a "sure way to lose a sale." That's absurd.
If the photographer is busy enough, nobody's even going to ask. I've had lots of clients mention to me later, "I could see you were really in your zone." I was 'way too much into what I was doing to look like I needed anything else to get me high.
Maybe if it looks like you're not having fun, there's some other problem people are seeing....
Phil Scheffler wrote:
glort, I think the point you're missing is, what if 150 all see you having "A drink." The bride and groom a month down the road decide that you did not do the job they paid you for. They talk to people that were there, and hear over and over, I saw him drinking. They would never have a clue that it was only "A drink" and that everyone they talked to all saw the same single drink.
A suit goes to court, and 60 people sit on the stand and say I saw him drinking. It'd be up to you to prove otherwise to keep from losing the case. Why chance it?
Are most of us here going to ever get sued for nonperformance? No, we're professionals and know how to get the job done. But again, why chance it? You never know when some opportunistic ass is going to see this as a way to get some money for free....Show more →
Forums can be a great thing, I have certainly learned a lot from tham but one thing that dirves me insane on all forums is the incessant pie in the sky folk lore that people make out is a threat to all life and limb that NEVER happens in real life.
There are a couple of things in your post that I take issue with.
the first is in your first line where You say " WHAT IF" and the second is the last 2 sentances: " But again, why chance it? You never know when some opportunistic ass is going to see this as a way to get some money for free."
I'm not trying to be offensive ( although that will happen with some merely byy having a differing viewpoint!) but If I lived my life and conducted my business worrying about what if's and opportunistic arses over points that I have NEVER heard a FIRST hand report of happening, ever, then I'd be too damn scared to get out of bed.
there are always these forum mantras and "rules" that are rammed down peoples throats as if fact but in real life and on said forums, you can never find a single person that said " this happened to me" . Yeah, there are always the stories someone heard and the dreamed up scenarios but actual fact to base the endlessly parroted mantra on just dosen't exist.
In this case, what I would be drinking would be mixed with coke in a highball glass so appearance wise would be impossible for a person to know if it were alcoholoic or not. Obviously that wouldn't be the case for beer drinkers or other things HOWEVER, you find me A case of someone suing a shooter and them winning because the photographer was seen to be drinking without appearing to be intoxicated, let alone a whole bunch of such instances, and i'll certainly consider this a valid risk and change my opinion.
And there lies the problem.
these " What if's" are parrotted like rules and laws but there is absoloutley NO evidence to support them as valid concerns.
I'll bet my backside that you could find 100 times more shooters that could tell you about the car accident they had driving to a job than being sued because they were "drinking" at a wedding and were sued because they didn't do their job properly.
Are we all going to say i'm giving away photography because I might have a car accident getting to jobs even though there would be REAL and verifyable reasons for that yet there are so many people that carry on that having a drink at a wedding is akin to a crime or professionaly negligent when there is no evidence to support that?
I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
I have done near 1000 weddings over 25 years and while I have had my problems with difficult and unhappy customers, I have yet to experience anyone a month down the track suddenly decide they were unhappy and go looking for alternate excuses to sue me.
If people think that having a drink at a wedding is a bad thing, fine, don't. But for god's sake can we do away with the hysteria and fabricated BS that people use to try and base an argument on where there are no facts to support it.
Like I said, if people can testify to me first hand that this has been a problem for them and there are enough to make the risk a real and demonstrated one rather than highly infrequent one off's, then i'll sure change my opinion.
Untill such time, I'll go with what 25 years of real life, real world experience has shown me the risk to be over totally unsubstantiated internet forum paranoia.
glort wrote:
Forums can be a great thing, I have certainly learned a lot from tham but one thing that dirves me insane on all forums is the incessant pie in the sky folk lore that people make out is a threat to all life and limb that NEVER happens in real life.
There are a couple of things in your post that I take issue with.
the first is in your first line where You say " WHAT IF" and the second is the last 2 sentances: " But again, why chance it? You never know when some opportunistic ass is going to see this as a way to get some money for free."
I'm not trying to be offensive ( although that will happen with some merely byy having a differing viewpoint!) but If I lived my life and conducted my business worrying about what if's and opportunistic arses over points that I have NEVER heard a FIRST hand report of happening, ever, then I'd be too damn scared to get out of bed.
there are always these forum mantras and "rules" that are rammed down peoples throats as if fact but in real life and on said forums, you can never find a single person that said " this happened to me" . Yeah, there are always the stories someone heard and the dreamed up scenarios but actual fact to base the endlessly parroted mantra on just dosen't exist.
In this case, what I would be drinking would be mixed with coke in a highball glass so appearance wise would be impossible for a person to know if it were alcoholoic or not. Obviously that wouldn't be the case for beer drinkers or other things HOWEVER, you find me A case of someone suing a shooter and them winning because the photographer was seen to be drinking without appearing to be intoxicated, let alone a whole bunch of such instances, and i'll certainly consider this a valid risk and change my opinion.
And there lies the problem.
these " What if's" are parrotted like rules and laws but there is absoloutley NO evidence to support them as valid concerns.
I'll bet my backside that you could find 100 times more shooters that could tell you about the car accident they had driving to a job than being sued because they were "drinking" at a wedding and were sued because they didn't do their job properly.
Are we all going to say i'm giving away photography because I might have a car accident getting to jobs even though there would be REAL and verifyable reasons for that yet there are so many people that carry on that having a drink at a wedding is akin to a crime or professionaly negligent when there is no evidence to support that?
I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
I have done near 1000 weddings over 25 years and while I have had my problems with difficult and unhappy customers, I have yet to experience anyone a month down the track suddenly decide they were unhappy and go looking for alternate excuses to sue me.
If people think that having a drink at a wedding is a bad thing, fine, don't. But for god's sake can we do away with the hysteria and fabricated BS that people use to try and base an argument on where there are no facts to support it.
Like I said, if people can testify to me first hand that this has been a problem for them and there are enough to make the risk a real and demonstrated one rather than highly infrequent one off's, then i'll sure change my opinion.
Untill such time, I'll go with what 25 years of real life, real world experience has shown me the risk to be over totally unsubstantiated internet forum paranoia. ...Show more →
glort wrote:
Forums can be a great thing, I have certainly learned a lot from tham but one thing that dirves me insane on all forums is the incessant pie in the sky folk lore that people make out is a threat to all life and limb that NEVER happens in real life.
There are a couple of things in your post that I take issue with.
the first is in your first line where You say " WHAT IF" and the second is the last 2 sentances: " But again, why chance it? You never know when some opportunistic ass is going to see this as a way to get some money for free."
I'm not trying to be offensive ( although that will happen with some merely byy having a differing viewpoint!) but If I lived my life and conducted my business worrying about what if's and opportunistic arses over points that I have NEVER heard a FIRST hand report of happening, ever, then I'd be too damn scared to get out of bed.
there are always these forum mantras and "rules" that are rammed down peoples throats as if fact but in real life and on said forums, you can never find a single person that said " this happened to me" . Yeah, there are always the stories someone heard and the dreamed up scenarios but actual fact to base the endlessly parroted mantra on just dosen't exist.
In this case, what I would be drinking would be mixed with coke in a highball glass so appearance wise would be impossible for a person to know if it were alcoholoic or not. Obviously that wouldn't be the case for beer drinkers or other things HOWEVER, you find me A case of someone suing a shooter and them winning because the photographer was seen to be drinking without appearing to be intoxicated, let alone a whole bunch of such instances, and i'll certainly consider this a valid risk and change my opinion.
And there lies the problem.
these " What if's" are parrotted like rules and laws but there is absoloutley NO evidence to support them as valid concerns.
I'll bet my backside that you could find 100 times more shooters that could tell you about the car accident they had driving to a job than being sued because they were "drinking" at a wedding and were sued because they didn't do their job properly.
Are we all going to say i'm giving away photography because I might have a car accident getting to jobs even though there would be REAL and verifyable reasons for that yet there are so many people that carry on that having a drink at a wedding is akin to a crime or professionaly negligent when there is no evidence to support that?
I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
I have done near 1000 weddings over 25 years and while I have had my problems with difficult and unhappy customers, I have yet to experience anyone a month down the track suddenly decide they were unhappy and go looking for alternate excuses to sue me.
If people think that having a drink at a wedding is a bad thing, fine, don't. But for god's sake can we do away with the hysteria and fabricated BS that people use to try and base an argument on where there are no facts to support it.
Like I said, if people can testify to me first hand that this has been a problem for them and there are enough to make the risk a real and demonstrated one rather than highly infrequent one off's, then i'll sure change my opinion.
Untill such time, I'll go with what 25 years of real life, real world experience has shown me the risk to be over totally unsubstantiated internet forum paranoia. ...Show more →
Hey, Its your God given right to drink as much as you want whenever you want.!.
Tell these P*****s to bug off. In fact drinking should be REQUIREMENT to shoot weddings.
Normal client's wedding = no. Pretty much solely for liability reasons (like someone said earlier - I'm clumsy, drinks or not, so chances of me knocking something over is high).
Clients who are friends = fo sho.
My dancing is something that ALL clients must be willing to accept the consequences of.
I never, ever, under any circumstances drink alcohol at a clients wedding. Professionalism, liability...oh the reasons are numerous! Why would you ever want to expose yourself to any kind of trouble for the sake of a "free drink" and if you can't make it though the night without a drink, well that's another problem entirely!
I agree....I am there ultimately as a paid professional and as such I refuse to drink Alcohol.
I do drink water, seemingly by the gallon. I won't even hang near the bar. I still do get my fair share of offers. They are also quick to understand why I say Thanks, but no thanks!!!
Too add to this from another angle. What are the drink driving laws in your state/country.
If you have strict drink drive laws, it might not take much to put you a position where you are walking home from a road side breath test and suspension of license.
This thread is hilarious! I can't believe all of the high and mighty BS from the "I'd never, ever..." crowd. Quoting professionalism as a reason is ridiculous. Use your judgement and have a drink if you're offered one. For Christ's sake, most of the big business dealings around the world are done over drinks. Anyone in sales that reads this thread would think we're a bunch of dorks. I can't remember the last time I shot something and didn't have drinks! You're a photographer not a neurosurgeon. Lighten up.
hondageek wrote:
This thread is hilarious! I can't believe all of the high and mighty BS from the "I'd never, ever..." crowd. Quoting professionalism as a reason is ridiculous. Use your judgement and have a drink if you're offered one. For Christ's sake, most of the big business dealings around the world are done over drinks. Anyone in sales that reads this thread would think we're a bunch of dorks. I can't remember the last time I shot something and didn't have drinks! You're a photographer not a neurosurgeon. Lighten up.
Couldn't agree more.
I'm still trying to work out if shooters overall are this uptight or it's just the forum mentality or just something regional.
Obviously there are a lot of people here that should get out more in the real world.
I have a mate that brings in well in excess of $2M a year for his company in sales that deals with big international firms and he ALWAYS takes his clients out for drinks and has a policy never to do business in the office.
If having A drink was as unprofessional as so many make out here, he would offending a lot of people and would have been flicked years ago, not being a top earner for his company that regularly gets head hunted by others... including his clients!
I spose the wowers could say something equal to what has been said here and concoct a scenario of the danger of him writng down a wrong figure or having someone sign on the wrong line after he loses control of his senses after 1 or 2 drinks and could put his entire company out of business.
The thing that is making me laugh is those that cannot seem to get it through their heads that it is possible to have -A- drink ( or god forbid, 2 drinks!) and not lose control, do something stupid or violate the drink driving laws. Equally as stupid is the insinuations that people have something wrong with them if they have a drink at a job and therefore can't enjoy themeslves without it as if they are some sort of alcoholics.
Really gives me the impression that some do complaineth too much and I'd be interested to know of their private drinking habits as compared to my own!
I can also seen some people are either ignoring what has been said on the subject or perhaps are just plain ignorant and keep bringing up implications which have been qualified already several times over.
The title of the thread was "Should you drink at weddings", not " You MUST Drink at weddings".
If you don't want to, don't. But also don't blow it out of proportion with complete and utter BS.
Can anyone tell me of an instance where THEY or someone they know personaly and have spoken to face to face that were sued for professional misconduct or lost work because they had a drink at a wedding and everyone talked about it like so many have made such a perililous possibility of here?
Can we find say 3 cases where this has actually happened to give the risk some credibility??
glort wrote:
Can anyone tell me of an instance where THEY or someone they know personaly and have spoken to face to face that were sued for professional misconduct or lost work because they had a drink at a wedding and everyone talked about it like so many have made such a perililous possibility of here?
I can. Back in the '80's when I was doing wedding photography there was another photographer in town. He was a decent photographer and was responsible. There was a wedding where the booze was really flowing and he got enticed into having a couple of drinks. He didn't get falling down drunk, but it was obvious he was enjoying himself. After that, I had more than one prospective customer tell me he got marked off their list because he was a drinker. In the rumor mill, it went from having a drink or two at the reception to showing up to the job after drinking. What happened to him was wrong.
This was nearly 30 years ago and in the Deep South (US), but it did happen and you asked for an example. Yes times have changed and attitudes towards drinking vary from region to region and country to country.
To expand my earlier comments, consider the culture in which you work, your target market, the possible risks and come up with what works for you. I do believe there is a way to graciously decline, so no one should feel pressured to drink.
It's funny, I recently started a new job and within two weeks I had to go with my team on a week long, out of town business trip. Unfortunately, drinking is part of the culture and after work the group would have drinks before dinner, drink during dinner and go bar hopping after dinner. One evening I watched a couple consume three pitchers of Rum Runners by themselves. I have a two drink a night limit. I stuck to it. I wasn't a prude about it and no one mentioned it.
dmacmillan wrote:
I can. Back in the '80's when I was doing wedding photography there was another photographer in town. He was a decent photographer and was responsible. There was a wedding where the booze was really flowing and he got enticed into having a couple of drinks. He didn't get falling down drunk, but it was obvious he was enjoying himself. After that, I had more than one prospective customer tell me he got marked off their list because he was a drinker. In the rumor mill, it went from having a drink or two at the reception to showing up to the job after drinking. What happened to him was wrong.
This was nearly 30 years ago and in the Deep South (US), but it did happen and you asked for an example. Yes times have changed and attitudes towards drinking vary from region to region and country to country.
To expand my earlier comments, consider the culture in which you work, your target market, the possible risks and come up with what works for you. I do believe there is a way to graciously decline, so no one should feel pressured to drink.
It's funny, I recently started a new job and within two weeks I had to go with my team on a week long, out of town business trip. Unfortunately, drinking is part of the culture and after work the group would have drinks before dinner, drink during dinner and go bar hopping after dinner. One evening I watched a couple consume three pitchers of Rum Runners by themselves. I have a two drink a night limit. I stuck to it. I wasn't a prude about it and no one mentioned it....Show more →
So, in 30 or more years, you know of ONE second hand account ( you did not see how this photographer acted although say " he was obviously enjoying himself" which is open to wide interpretation) of 1 guy loosing work at a time when standards and values were very different to what they are today.
Ok, fair enough. the tea totalling highbrows have convinced me.
It's a mortal sin to have a drink at a wedding and there is something wrong with a person if they succombe to temptation and allow their professionalism to be compromised.
Naysayers win by default of boring the opposition to death and failing to provide any reasonable evidence to support thier case.
Don't drink at weddings.
It's not worth the attitude you'll cop on photo forums.
glort wrote:
Ok, fair enough. the tea totalling highbrows have convinced me.
Don't drink at weddings.
It's not worth the attitude you'll cop on photo forums.
Gee wiz. Is that what you take away from what others and I have said?
Notice I didn't say "Don't do it". Notice I didn't say you'll ruin your business and go to hell if you have a drink or two. I said find your own way.
I don't understand why it bothers you so much that others come to a different decision than you on this topic. You're coming across as pretty defensive.
I seem to get one distinct impression from this discussion: professionalism means different things to different people.
You're only as professional as you're perceived by your community. If your community thinks it's OK to drink on-the-job, then it's all good. I guess the folks that think it's OK to drink while working wouldn't have an issue with their dentist tossing back a few during a procedure. Good to know there are still some real professionals out there.
