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Archive 2011 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today

  
 
sebboh
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p.9 #1 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


thrice wrote:
Please link, all I could find is a 35mm lux asph comparison, which is barely a symmetrical lens. Like I said, the problem is not really with ~50mm equivalent lenses on aps-c cmos sensors. The problem is lenses with extremely short back focal distance (the wonderfully compact wide angles). I don't know if Luka has any lenses like a super angulon or 12/15mm heliar.

I do also appreciate that a custom cmos chip (or microlens array) can be designed to cope with extreme incidence from a single lens (a la Fuji x100) but there's a good reason Fuji don't let you
...Show more

here is the link: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1030741/1#9793822
luka's widest rangefinder lens is the zm 18/4 as far as i know. this lens produces drastic color shift and vignetting on the m9 (despite it's CCD sensor) prior to software based correction. vignetting and color shift are virtually undetectable with the same lens on the NEX-C3 (despite it's CMOS sensor). even if you crop the m9 shot to the same angle of view as the NEX it appears that the NEX still has less color shift and vignetting. the NEX-C3 also seems to perform fine with luka's 90 AA cron which is a long enough lens for most applications a small camera would be useful for.



Aug 25, 2011 at 01:40 AM
douglasf13
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p.9 #2 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Thrice, here is 10 pages worth of edge comparisons between the nex-5 and nex-c3 and wide lenses.
Xitek link

You'll have to talk to Joakim about glass specifics, but I do believe that you're also not taking into account things in the way of the CCD lightpath, namely anti-blooming gates, and I still maintain that CCD has no inherent angled light/offset microlens advantage.



Aug 25, 2011 at 01:58 AM
thrice
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p.9 #3 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


I'm out of this conversation since you guys are obviously right and I am not a scientist, enjoy your fat long moderate wide angle lenses


Aug 25, 2011 at 03:46 AM
bluetsunami
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p.9 #4 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


I have a feeling the Zeiss 24/1.8 was developed with no regard for whatever Sony did to resolve the corner issues in these current NEX cameras. Not due to negligence but maybe some breakthrough came about too far along in the 24/1.8's development. I mean, if lenses as wide as the CV 12/5.6 and 15/4.5 don't exhibit a strong shift in colors on the NEX 3C then something must be going on.


Aug 25, 2011 at 04:49 AM
philber
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p.9 #5 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Guys, at the expense of sounding like a broken record, the main problem was not the colour shift, but extreme corner softness. The colour shift was more visible, but less serious; The corner softness remained, even when the colour shift was cured by Cornerfix. So that is my main concern with my new NEX C3.


Aug 25, 2011 at 04:59 AM
Sp12
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p.9 #6 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


thrice wrote:
Post a link to the whitepaper or press release from Sony and I'll eat my words.


http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09080601sonycmos.asp

Sony 'Exmor-R' marketing is conflictingly used with backlit and reduced wiring CCD-style readout sensors. At the very least Exmor is exclusively used for reduced wiring (marketing calls it 'CU wiring' typically) that avoids the issues your graphic implies.



Aug 25, 2011 at 05:06 AM
uhoh7
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p.9 #7 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


philber wrote:
Guys, at the expense of sounding like a broken record, the main problem was not the colour shift, but extreme corner softness. The colour shift was more visible, but less serious; The corner softness remained, even when the colour shift was cured by Cornerfix. So that is my main concern with my new NEX C3.


+1!

why doesn't someone slap a ZM 25 on one of the 7s and see what happens?



Aug 25, 2011 at 05:35 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.9 #8 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


What I am excited about with the NEX 7 is the viewfinder and the controls. The viewfinder is exactly where I would like it and seems to have good specs and Sony with their high end video expertise would seem to have good experience making EVFs. I also really like that it has three dials and the way the three dials work (i.e., one for aperture, one for shutter speed, one for ISO). I have wanted that in a camera for a long time, and my Canon DSLR have never had that. I also like the size and the apparent sturdiness.

What I am cautious about is the sensor. It is no doubt promising, but there are some possible places where it may be less than optimal and I am sure that there will be some weaknesses. Here are the potential issues with the sensor as I see it.1) Pixel density - this sensor really isn't any more dense than the GH2 sensor, so in a way it is not really anything new. Personally, I would have been just as happy with the 16 megapixel sensor in the 5N, which seems to work well on the D7000, but I am not too worried about the pixel density. At low ISO increased pixel density can create some additional detail, but it will take very good glass to get that advantage with a sensor so dense. At high ISO the downsides of high pixel density seem to be mostly offset by the downsizing it allows. 2) Over aggressive noise reduction. There already seems to be some reports that Sony is "improving" high ISO performance by squashing detail. Let's hope this is only for JPEGs and not for Raw, but frankly this is a concern. 3) Colour shift for wide angle lenses. There is reason to hope here as Luka's (denoir) impression of the 3C thread suggest this is much improved in the 3C. Why it is improved? We don't know yet, but the improvement with that sensor suggest possible improvement with the 7 sensor as well. 4) Corner softness with short register distance wide angles. This was an issue for the NEX 3 and NEX 5, and as Phillipe (philber) has pointed out this is a separate issue from colour shift. My guess is that there may be some improvements here by making the electronics smaller, but it will be an incremental improvement and not a radical improvement. This will be something to watch carefully as the camera is purchased and tested. Luka's latest posts in the 3C impressions thread worry me. He reports something being not quite right about the 3C files and I think he has an excellent eye for detail even if he can't articulate the issue.

So my summary is that it looks like a great camera that is quite small with wonderful ergonomics. The sensor looks promising, but there are potential issues. I would bet some of the issue won't be perfectly resolved and will have to be worked around one way or another. For example, it wouldn't surprise me if to get good corner performance with wide angles somewhat bigger lenses may be required. Still I think this camera has great promise and I for one am excited to see how it actually performs.



Aug 25, 2011 at 07:08 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.9 #9 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


philber wrote:
Guys, at the expense of sounding like a broken record, the main problem was not the colour shift, but extreme corner softness. The colour shift was more visible, but less serious; The corner softness remained, even when the colour shift was cured by Cornerfix. So that is my main concern with my new NEX C3.


I never saw extreme corner softness with the CV Heliar 15mm on the original NEX 5, only the color vignetting, not that that means it did not show up on other lenses.

Even in the link Douglas gave above, there are still some slight color vignetting issues with the NEX c3 but nothing like what we had perviously. What really stands out is just how poor the native M9 sensor deals with the issue. Without software correction, it's just awful. Heck, even with correction, it's not better than the CMOS sensored C3! That alone proves that whatever Sony is doing with the NEX C3 sensor shatters the notion that CCD sensors somehow are inherently better at dealing with the issue as compared to CMOS. The question is, will the NEX 24MP sensor perform as well in this regard.



Aug 25, 2011 at 07:53 AM
RalphJ
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p.9 #10 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Steve Spencer wrote:
The NEX-7 sensor really isn't any more dense than the GH2 sensor, so in a way it is not really anything new.



Interesting! Especially since few people are complaining about high-ISO noise levels in the GH2.

How many megapixels would that pixel density mean if it were incorporated in a 24x36 sensor?



Aug 25, 2011 at 08:18 AM
denoir
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p.9 #11 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


The corner softness and color vignetting are I think two different issues. The uncorrected M9 images show extreme color vignetting for some lenses but never any corner softness. So both you and Dan (thrice) could be right. The wiring in the optical path of the CMOS sensor could have something to do with the soft corners while at the same time not being related to the color vignetting. It's possible that they reduced the cross section of the offending metal parts in the C3.

Of course we don't know what goes on in the software but I'm pretty sure it's a sensor thing as the NEX has no idea which adapted lens you have on. The software corrections provided by the M9 with the latest firmware is a bit better than the C3's hardware handling of it but the latter doesn't require coded lenses and the color vignetting is weak enough not to be a problem.



Aug 25, 2011 at 08:26 AM
denoir
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p.9 #12 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


RalphJ wrote:
How many megapixels would that pixel density mean if it were incorporated in a 24x36 sensor?


24.3 megapixel ~= 6000x4000 pixels. The NEX sensor is 15.6 x 23.4 mm . So a FF with the same pixel density would be 6000*(36/23.4) * 4000*(24/15.6) = 56 804 733 pixels = 54 megapixels.




Aug 25, 2011 at 08:30 AM
RalphJ
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p.9 #13 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


denoir wrote:
A FF with the same pixel density [as the GH2 and NEX-7] would be ... 54 megapixels.



Hmm. Very interesting. Thanks much!



Aug 25, 2011 at 08:39 AM
denoir
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p.9 #14 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


In practical terms of relative image size, 54 Mp vs 24 Mp would look like this:

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/mp2454.jpg

Since the pixel density was assumed to be the same, the relation would be the same as the ones between the two sensor sizes.



Aug 25, 2011 at 08:41 AM
dpap1978
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p.9 #15 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


ok, does anyone know if the NEX-C3 has fixed the corner softness issues?


Aug 25, 2011 at 08:52 AM
millsart
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p.9 #16 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


I think a FF NEX7 would be a relative success, but just think about how much larger the lenses would have to be to cover the image circle, and how much more expensive the camera itself would be.

It would be a hot camera among a small minority of photographers but a commercial success ? Probably not. Sure as well many a Leica owners may be considering it now, because it should work fantastic with their current glass. You got a tilt screen, great EVF, ability to record movies, lots of cool features that can make it more than just a Leica backup, but I'd wager that a large majority of Leica shooters want a Leica because its a Leica, a true rangefinder.

There are some of course who simply want the smallest FF body and would rather a more "modern" camera, but for most, shooting a Leica is as much about shooting a RF as it is about the great IQ.

Even if, and its a huge if, the IQ of the NEX7 is equal or even better than what a M9 can achieve, and even though the NEX7 would give a tilt LCD, liveview, great EVF etc and cost thousands of dollars less, I just can't see most Leica shooters switching to it because again, its not going to be like shooting a traditional RF camera.

If the NEX7 was somehow FF as well, Just can't see it changing things either, make it a little more desireable for said group, but still isn't going to be like shooting a RF.


In the bigger picture, I think its the A77 that should have Canikon worried. That camera has some serious features. I'm actually thinking about checking one out to add to my Nikons, depending on what I can do.

NEX is great, but its never going to replace a DSLR for most folks. Its never going to be more popular overall than the millions and millions of Canon and Nikon DSLR's that are out there.

Even if Sony did make it FF your still going to have more people overall with, say a 5D mkII.

Again, not that its not a good camera, and yes it does sell quite well in Japan, but overall we are a minority here, in fact, the Alt Forum is a minority on FM, and people that frequent internet forums are a minority of photographers in general.


uhoh7 wrote:
An FF with Nex-7 footprint and similar mount versatility would sell to the rafters, IMHO. The leica folks are actually pretty impressed with the nex-7, and many who would not even acknowledge the nex-5 are talking about the 7 as their back up camera.

A hybrid viewfinder, say a la x100 with focus aid in an RF split image style would be pretty nice, but the 7 has the best EVF anyone has ever seen, AND its in the right spot.

as someone said back a few pages, Sony has stolen a big march on Canikon here. I wonder how its going
...Show more



Aug 25, 2011 at 09:28 AM
safcraft
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p.9 #17 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Why do people keep braggin about a FF NEX and still wish for a small kit ?

If Sony/Zeiss could put out small pancake lenses, they would. But this is a APS-C sized sensor so it is not easy.
If you think these lens are big, in a FF NEX they would have to be even bigger !!!

Maybe Sony should have partnered with Voigtlander instead of Zeiss...wrong Germans!?



Aug 25, 2011 at 10:35 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.9 #18 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


How does Leica M mount get away with such small lenses on ff?


Aug 25, 2011 at 10:39 AM
safcraft
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p.9 #19 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today



Again, not that its not a good camera, and yes it does sell quite well in Japan, but overall we are a minority here, in fact, the Alt Forum is a minority on FM, and people that frequent internet forums are a minority of photographers in general.



So true. But sometimes its easy to forget this and believe every photographer is a FM one!



Aug 25, 2011 at 10:41 AM
RalphJ
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p.9 #20 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


See below.

Edited on Aug 25, 2011 at 10:45 AM · View previous versions



Aug 25, 2011 at 10:42 AM
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