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Archive 2011 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3

  
 
Jman13
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p.10 #1 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Yakim Peled wrote:
That's incredible. It's really hard to believe that Canon top brand can be beaten by a kit zoom.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.


Yeah, I was pretty blown away personally. I did it again head to head this morning with my 1Ds II/100L macro and GH2/Panny 45 macro (what a size/weight difference there)....GH2 was equal on some targets and up to twice is fast on other targets. In good light, they are the same with a fast lens on both...in poor light, the GH2 locks quickly, the Canon gets close, hesitates a little, then locks....it's just not as fast.

Now, continuous/tracking AF? The Canon will stomp the GH2 like there's no tomorrow. Modern CDAF is incredible in accuracy and speed in single shot, but it still isn't quite up to snuff for continuous focus.



Aug 11, 2011 at 05:00 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.10 #2 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Having owned the Panny 45-200, it's a very mediocre lens in terms of sharpness, bokeh, and contrast. It's not priced very high so it's somewhat equivalent to the Nikon 55-200mm VR.

However, the Nikon 55-200mm VR is a surprisingly sharp lens with really decent contrast.

Unless you have a desperate need for fast CDAF with swivel screen, I see no point to the DSLR style MFT cameras. That is one area where cameras like the D5100 can't compete in terms of AF speed if you're trying to shoot at a non standard angle. The SLT Sony series though is pretty good in this regard although they've had their own birthing problems.



Aug 11, 2011 at 08:19 AM
Jman13
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p.10 #3 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


I agree with you on the Panny 45-200, which is why I switched to the m.zuiko 40-150 which is much smaller and much better optically. Nearly the same AF speed too. I just had sold my 70-200 II by the time I got the Oly. They do need a fast telezoom for m4/3.


Aug 11, 2011 at 08:22 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.10 #4 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


I also had the 40-150mm and its a pretty good lens with again, pretty avg to poor bokeh. It is sharp though for sure.


Aug 11, 2011 at 08:24 AM
Jman13
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p.10 #5 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Yeah...when I want telephoto bokeh, I reach for my FD 135/2 or my Minolta MD 135/2.8.


Aug 11, 2011 at 08:33 AM
traveler
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p.10 #6 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Hmmm I dunno but you guys must be getting crappy copies of the 45-200OIS. Mine is sharp from one end to the other, super tight build and what a great travel companion for a 90-400mm reach. It's pretty much my "go to" travel lens. I have no idea why yours haven't done right by you. I wouldn't be without it.


Aug 11, 2011 at 08:34 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.10 #7 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


The 45-200 is well known to be mediocre for people who have used a lot of telephoto lenses.

The Oly kit zooms are surprisingly good for the money and so is the non kit 8-16mm.



Aug 11, 2011 at 08:38 AM
Gunzorro
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p.10 #8 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Jordan -- I like your work and I'm appreciative of your examples posted here. But frankly, I'm getting concerned and confused at this point.

You seem to have a specific agenda here, to promote M43 cameras over other (larger) sensors. I'm happy to get more information and examples that show the M43 aren't crap and can actually produce useful images. But. . .

It seems you are saying the IQ of your M43 surpasses that of 1Ds2. That is a remarkable statement that I have trouble agreeing with. I see a lot of back-pedalling explanation about viewing-size/distance and not being a professional. And the latest AF business is confusing me too -- are you saying the M43 is a superior imaging device because it has better AF than an old DSLR? I don't see how that influences IQ, other than superficially.

With RAW files, I can see the noise differences between my 1Ds2 and my modern 60D, in favor of the 1Ds2 at low ISO. I can't imagine that the even smaller M43 sensor would equal the IQ (much less surpass!) of the much larger full frame sensor. That would take a lot of examples and testing to convince me.

If am misunderstanding, please enlighten me!

I am a "pixel peeper" extraordinaire -- I've yet to find a FF or smaller sensor that matches my visual acuity. That's my benchmark -- when the consumer/pro products in 35mm-size and smaller do so, I will be nearly satisified (I'd still rather have croppable images that surpass my acuity). So, that's my agenda -- show me the IQ that is better than my own at normal magnifications.

I think you made your point nicely that M43 is a useful and worthwhile format. Past that, the waters have become murkier.



Aug 11, 2011 at 09:34 AM
Jman13
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p.10 #9 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


You are misunderstanding. My 1Ds II definitely has better image quality..specifically in dynamic range in the highlights and a lower noise floor. My point is that for what I do, I very rarely see those differences make any real perceptible difference in my final print. At 100%, or in really challenging conditions, the differences are there, but they are. It significant enough for me to lug the beast out into the field anymore. The AF differences be edit my shooting as I rarely shoot action. I posted about those and other little things I like about the GH2 because some in this thread are suggesting that there is no reason to use these cameras because the IQ is not up to snuff. I disagree, as I get better IQ than my old APS-C cams and pretty close to my FF cam, and that is outstanding IMO. I know that the new Nikon/Sony sensor is better, as are modern FF sensors, but my point is that these improvements are very minimal at the print sizes and ISOs I shoot at.


Aug 11, 2011 at 09:44 AM
Jman13
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p.10 #10 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Ok, so I read that back (I wrote it on my phone) and I seem to jump a bit....to clarify and sum up:

I disagree with those who feel that m4/3 is barely a step above point and shoots and there's no reason for them to exist because they don't have the image quality of full frame and aren't pocketable as a system. In many cases, especially at non-enormous print sizes at ISO 1600 and below, they compete very well with APS-C cameras and even full frame cameras in many cases. Are they as good as the newest stuff, or even my 1Ds II? No, not quite. Can I see it in a 12x18" print? Not really, unless the DR is really being stretched in the shot...and in those rare cases, I can shoot an HDR to get better DR. My m4/3 kit is 1/4 the weight of my former full FF kit, and while I lose out on a little absolute image quality and extreme shallow DOF capability, it's well worth the weight and size cutting FOR ME.

I posted about what I feel are excellent ergonomics, fantastic EVF for accurate and fast manual focusing, and extremely quick and accurate single shot AF as these are perks I don't get with my 1Ds II, and they make my decision to go m4/3 even more pleasing for me. If you need serious continuous AF, m4/3 is not for you. For single shot AF, I've never had a camera as quick and accurate.

Noise: Yes, m4/3 is worse than modern APS-C and FF sensors. My point is that for what I shoot, it's pretty much irrelevant. At ISO 1600 and even 3200, it's about half a stop worse than my 1Ds II. At lower ISOs, it's maybe a stop worse. The thing is, I've found even with higher noise levels, they are invisible in the print sizes I typically use, and I have never felt the need to print a really huge print at high ISO...almost all my high ISO stuff is candid portraiture, which I tend to print small. Plus, I have never bought into the noise religion. I don't really care if an image has a little bit of visible noise...it has never bothered me. Bad blotchy chroma noise and banding? Yes. Even, grain like noise? Not really.

M4/3 is not a perfect system...but it's a very good one, especially for the kind of shooting I do. I am not saying everyone should get it...absolutely not. If I ever became a working pro, I'd probably immediately buy a 5D II and some L glass again...and use my m4/3 kit for liesure use. But there you're competing against other photographers for business, and you never know how huge a picture your client may want...you want to have every available option covered. If you print huge even non professionally, you may want a newer, larger format system, but for me, the weight just isn't worth it any more. I have so much more fun shooting now without lugging so much darn gear around. You may be different. I was for a while...always springing for the next great lens, the next great body that I could afford...when I realized that it didn't ultimately matter as to whether I got a great shot or not.

I prefer m4/3 to NEX despite the sensor being better in the newer NEX bodies, because the lenses are better on m4/3, and there's a much larger selection of AF glass out there. I shoot a lot of ultra-wide stuff, so the presence of great UWA lenses and fisheyes on m4/3 are what swayed me there. I have had an E-p1 for a while, but the downfalls of that body (slow to operate, slow and imprecise AF, not quite good enough IQ for my taste...) kept it as an 'occasional' body. After getting the 7-14, I seriously began looking at switching all the way over, and the GH2 was good enough in IQ to make the switch well worth it...the fact that the AF is blazing and precise and I find the body ergonomically excellent cemented the deal.

So, there it is.



Aug 11, 2011 at 10:01 AM
Gunzorro
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p.10 #11 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Thanks! That clarifies your views very well. I agree with you, and can certainly see the convenience and practicality issues being in favor of the M43. With regard to the ratio of IQ to transportability, I think it is a winning system -- better IQ than P&S and more compact than NEX.

Honestly, I'm amazed at the great color and IQ provided by the M43 in the images I've seen. And, having a strong "Alt" streak, this format appeals to me for all the adapted lenses it can use (as does the NEX).

I think I've mentioned here that I'd recently bought (used) a little (and outdated) G6, which has a smaller sensor than M43 and poorer IQ. Yet, for its purpose, I've been delighted to carry it around and get some very fun shots I wouldn't have gotten otherwise. And sometimes the restricted IQ and "gritty" nature of its images adds to their charm and distinctiveness. So, I'm not trying to be a snob here, and think the M43 will likely be a viable successor for me someday, for personal work of a casual nature. But since I need to make some money with my photography, it won't replace a decent FF body and quality glass -- that's where I "live".



Aug 11, 2011 at 10:24 AM
AhamB
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p.10 #12 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


CKrueger wrote:
The A900 had worse noise performance than the 5D2


Not at base ISO, where the Sony is better.



Aug 11, 2011 at 11:28 AM
CKrueger
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p.10 #13 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


FlyPenFly wrote:
Having owned the Panny 45-200, it's a very mediocre lens in terms of sharpness, bokeh, and contrast. It's not priced very high so it's somewhat equivalent to the Nikon 55-200mm VR.


I have to wonder if there is some sample variation in the 45-200, because I hear some people say it's a piece of junk, and others have no problems, usually comparing it to a mid-range telephoto.


FlyPenFly wrote:
Unless you have a desperate need for fast CDAF with swivel screen, I see no point to the DSLR style MFT cameras.


The DSLR-style bodies are just like the brick-style bodies but with a larger hand grip and a built-in EVF. It's not like they're really so different. You could pretty much turn an EP3 into a DSLR style body with the optional hand grip and VF-2, even.

I guess I'd agree that there isn't much point to a M43 camera and lens combo that's as large as a DSLR... this was part of my problem with Four Thirds and larger lenses like the 14-54, in fact. But the GH2 and a small lens like the 20/1.7 or 14-42 is quite a bit smaller/lighter than a DSLR. And I disagree with the assertion that some people make that if it's not truly pocketable it might as well be large. Loading my GH1 and a few lenses into a bag makes for a much lighter bag than my DSLR kit. I couldn't fit my 100-400 into my Retrospective 5, for example, but I can fit my EP3, 9-18, 14-42, 100-300, 20/1.7, and FL-36R.

I'm now packing a full lens kit in my bag and getting shots I never did in the past when I carried my Canon DSLRs everywhere. So that's the bottom-line success story for me. Like Jordan said, the format is not a panacea, but I think some write it off to easily due to its small sensor. It's quite a capable little system.

Now if I could just get my EP3 RAWs into Lightroom!


AhamB wrote:
Not at base ISO, where the Sony is better.


Agreed. That said, I don't really have any noise problems at ISO100 (or ISO200 for that matter) with the 5D2.



Aug 11, 2011 at 10:40 PM
kwalsh
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p.10 #14 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


There is definitely sample variation on the 45-200 - pretty severe at that. Look at the photozone.de and slrgear.com reviews. The photozone.de copy is actually pretty impressive for a cheap lens, the slrgear.com copy has a horribly decentered element.

I'm fortunate to have a "good" copy, nice and sharp and actually pretty contrasty at the shorter half the of zoom range. A bit weaker past 150, but not the total garbage some people (like slrgear.com) get in the "lens lottery".

That said, it isn't a 70-200/4L either. I wish someone would make a compact F/4 telephoto for m43 that didn't have cheap as its primary design goal. I'm always annoyed when good optics are saved for fast zooms which are heavier and bulkier than I need for my landscape shooting. Canon is an exception with the amazing 70-200/4L.

Ken



Aug 11, 2011 at 11:41 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.10 #15 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Jman13 wrote:
Yeah, I was pretty blown away personally. I did it again head to head this morning with my 1Ds II/100L macro and GH2/Panny 45 macro (what a size/weight difference there)....GH2 was equal on some targets and up to twice is fast on other targets. In good light, they are the same with a fast lens on both...in poor light, the GH2 locks quickly, the Canon gets close, hesitates a little, then locks....it's just not as fast.

Now, continuous/tracking AF? The Canon will stomp the GH2 like there's no tomorrow. Modern CDAF is incredible in accuracy and speed in single shot,
...Show more

That's really illuminating. You see, I'm thinking of getting the 70-200/2.8 IS II as I currently see Canon and MFT as parallel systems. Not as rival ones. As I mostly use one-shot mode maybe I should rethink this.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Aug 12, 2011 at 05:25 AM
Bifurcator
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p.10 #16 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Gunzorro wrote:
I am a "pixel peeper" extraordinaire -- I've yet to find a FF or smaller sensor that matches my visual acuity. That's my benchmark -- when the consumer/pro products in 35mm-size and smaller do so, I will be nearly satisified (I'd still rather have croppable images that surpass my acuity). So, that's my agenda -- show me the IQ that is better than my own at normal magnifications.



This has ONLY to do with the display device or medium and almost nothing to do with the lens and/or sensor.




Aug 12, 2011 at 10:40 AM
denoir
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p.10 #17 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


There's one thing we haven't mentioned in these discussions and that is the problem of future proofing your images.

Even if you don't print large and mostly look at photos on your computer there's no avoiding the facts that monitor resolutions increase over time. Today's monitors are actually rather poor in terms of PPI (pixels per inch) and they will definitely improve - as they have been improving. A standard display (24", 1920x1200) has ~95 PPI while an iphone 4 has about 330 PPI. That means that a 24" monitor with the pixel density of the phone would have a resolution of 6720x4200 (=27 megapixel).

Now, the highest resolution small format cameras on the market are the Nikon D3X and the Sony Alpha 900 - both with ~24.5 megapixel. So you couldn't even cover a 24" high res screen with one. And because those cameras have hefty AA filters you don't want to look at an image at 100% (of course at 330 ppi it may not be as much of a problem). In reality if you really want max per pixel sharpness which and roughly the same resolving power as the 24 megapixel beasts you'll have to go for the 18 megapixel Leica M9 - which doesn't come close to covering the needed 6720x4200 pixels. So your choice today if you want to look at your images in full screen on a 24" monitor a couple of years from now is to future proof your shots by using a medium format digital back.

If this sounds silly, let's take a walk down the memory lane:

The year is 2001 and I've bought my first digital camera - an Olympus C2. It's a 2 megapixel point and shoot. It wasn't a terribly expensive or advanced camera - I was a student with very limited funds and little interest in photography. However, it wasn't cheap either. Digital photography was relatively new and even P&S cameras were rather expensive. You could probably get a good m4/3 kit for that money today.

Today, 10 years later, I'd like to share a picture with you, web sized. Will it work? Is the image quality good enough for a web sized shot (1200px wide as I usually post):

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/A_oly_web.jpg

Err...no. That looks pretty awful. So I've got a bunch of images that are not really usable today unless I want to look at them in thumbnail size. Not a massive loss as I wasn't particularly interested in photography back then but still, there are pictures of friends & family that would have been nice to be able to look at today.

The year is 2004. I got myself a brand new camera, the Konica-Minolta Dimage Z3. The megapixels have doubled to an impressive 4 megapixel. It's not a P&S but a bridge camera and I love it. It sparks my first interest in photography. It's a great camera and produces really nice colors. I still have very fond memories of it.

Can I share a web sized picture today?


http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/A_z3_web.jpg

No, unfortunately not. And this time I'm not happy about it. I've got some nice shots with it that are unfortunately unusable because of the low image quality. Back then when I had a 1024px wide 17" monitor it was no problem, but today on a 1920x1200 - not to mention a 2560x1440 monitor it's just unusable.

The year is 2005. I got my next camera, a Canon 350D. Again the pixels are doubled. That camera managed to kill my interest in photography before it really started - primarily because I didn't know how to use it. I had no idea about aperture or any other technical stuff. The Z3 was far easier to use as it had live view and exposure simulation. But I digress.... By then I had a 1600px wide 19" monitor and the 350D provided enough quality for that. And the 350D was my camera until late 2009 when I got a 7D. Initially I used the 7D for video only and actually kept using the 350D until early 2010.

Can I share a web sized picture today from the 350D today?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/A_350d_web.jpg

Yes, that sort of works, doesn't it? Ok, it could be much better, but we're at an level of what we might call 'acceptable' quality. And I've got nearly five years worth of pictures taken with this camera.

How future proof is it?

Well, let's look at a 100% crop - the full image is 3456 pixels wide:

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_350D_crop.jpg

Usable at this size? No. The quality is considerable worse than the resized image.

What about 1920px? I have two 1920x1200 monitors hooked up to my workstation at home. Could I get a full screen image with sufficient quality?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_350D_crop_1920.jpg

Again, no. It's not as good as the 1200px image.

What about 1600px?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_350D_crop_1600.jpg

Alright, that's better. If I resize the image to 1600px width, then I get an acceptable image quality.

Now, what do I get with a high end modern system like a Leica M9? Here's the full scene, resized to 1200px of the same subject with the same angle of view:

http://peltarion.eu/img/m9/zm35-15.jpg

The M9 is an 18 megapixel camera which outputs 5212x3468 images. How do things look at 100%?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_m9_crop.jpg

I'd call that acceptable. It's not perfect but I would have no problem using it as is. That gives me a future proofing until we've got monitors that can do > 5212 pixels in horizontal resolution.

There's more to it though - the increase in future resolution is not unlimited. There is an optical limit after which we can't distinguish two pixels. Where that limit is depends on viewing distance, visual acuity and so on, but the limit that is usually quoted is around 300ppi at medium close viewing distances (~0.5 meters). You can look at this for a further discussion on the resolution limit topic.

So, as far as the future proofing goes, I know that as long as I have a technically well executed image (no more blur than desired) and I have not cropped it, I can view it full screen on a monitors with 300ppi up to a size of ~21". Sure, it's not 24" or larger, but it still isn't thumbnail sized. So I can be certain that my images are future proof - even though I may not have the need for that full image quality right now.

My NEX-C3 on the other hand is far less future proof. I need to resize it's 16 megapixel image to about 8 megapixels before I get the same per pixel quality as the M9. This gives a max horizontal resolution of ~3400 px which in turn means that once we have 300 ppi monitors I'll be able to see the images in full quality on a monitor no larger than ~12"-15".

The point of all this is that even though a camera might fulfill your needs right now as far as image quality goes, that estimate probably won't hold forever. You may find yourself with photos with simply insufficient image quality to work on higher resolution monitors - as happened to my Z3 pictures. This is unfortunately the largest I can post/view before the image starts falling apart and the low IQ becomes distracting:


http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/C_z3.jpg



Aug 12, 2011 at 08:37 PM
Gunzorro
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p.10 #18 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


denoir -- Thank you for sharing your odyssey and examples in such clear terms. That makes a lot of sense and really addresses the specificity of acuity I was bringing up.

You may be being conservative -- within five years, we may have 60" wall monitors with greater than 300PPI -- for entertainment as well as photo/video viewing and editing.

For me, when things start getting to the range of 50-100MP images, I'll probably be relatively satisfied. I've seen some of my past 4x5 transparencies made into high rez wall size digital prints, so I know it can get even better! Once you've tasted the possibilities, you can't help but want to get closer to the best.



Aug 13, 2011 at 12:20 AM
Bifurcator
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p.10 #19 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


You have really high standards! I's say two things here. One, when I look at ancient photos from old digital cameras I don't expect much. I knew this day (2011) was coming so I didn't expect anything from them at the time either. The earliest shots you show there I would say are exceptionally good considering. I have a few hundred shots from 1, 2, and 4 mega-pixel cameras each and at the time of photographing I didn't expect them to be "useful" even a year later. The industry moved MUCH slower than I thought tho so they actually were useful for several years.

The second thing I wanted to say was that with a 330 PPI screen I think there's almost zero chance of the affects from today's AA filters showing up at all. That's pretty much the same thing as if we were to scale one of our images to 30% and show it on a standard monitor. Furthermore unless there are bionic eyes in store for us in the future humans are limited to about 85 PPI at a distance on one meter so we may not see higher density screens in the future. Remember that with hand-held devices there's two things at play. One, we hold them much closer than one meter and two, they need to fit more information in a smaller space. 300 or 400 PPI is meaningful for hand-held screens or EVF's and such but for desk and wall monitors it's pretty much a total waste. I can't really see a future in which DT monitors are commonly over 120 PPI.

As far as future-proofing our current images I don't think we can get much better than DNG or PSD16 formats as a file storage. It's what I'm currently doing. I know of nothing better.

Edited on Aug 13, 2011 at 12:25 AM · View previous versions



Aug 13, 2011 at 12:22 AM
CKrueger
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p.10 #20 · Switched entirely to Micro4/3


Look at the arc of cameras and lenses since the first cameras. IQ has gone up continuously. Fast-forward 200 years and we'll have cell phones with resolution to shame any camera of today.

I don't think you can future-proof your photos if your goal is the best possible image quality. Anything produced today will look like it was made with a toy camera in the future. That doesn't take anything away from the existing art, however. For example:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/

Sergei Prokudin-Gorskii produced some of the earliest color "photos" by combining three frames shot with color filters. The images have horrible image quality if you were to compare against a DSLR, but the art is wonderful. Pictures of a culture largely wiped out by the Soviets, and of Russia before the revolution. I'd be ecstatic to hang any of his portraits on my wall, despite the fact that even a photo from my G10 has greatly better IQ.

(FWIW, there's a book of Prokudin-Gorskii's work that I picked up a while back. I recommend it both for its cultural and artistic merit and its technical significance: http://www.amazon.com/Photographs-Tsar-Mikhailovich-Prokudin-Gorskii-Commissioned/dp/0385271581/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313212469&sr=8-1)



Aug 13, 2011 at 12:24 AM
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